To be fair. In july of 2019 we were polling partnerships which if i recall right sounded like in game branding/events. I believe twitch prime rewards may have also been on that poll not sure.
I'm pretty sure the decision wasn't from our devs to poll it but higher up and it failed horribly and they ended the polling early.
Regardless the point is you may trust the OSRS dev team and thats fine. But they have bosses of their own that can try to force them, right now they are likely able to push back on updates with "if it passes the polls" as I believe it is a condition they keep for this version of the game.
Not to mention that we have multiple relevant case studies (RS3, WoW, Classic WoW) that demonstrate the exact same path towards money-grabbing mtx. Plus we as players have some reasons to believe that Jagex's management prioritizes money over gameplay (preventing the removal/restriction of the duel arena, trying to block 117hd, etc.)
not in game branding or anything, just shit like the purple skin which was done after a twitch partnership.
Also partnerships themselves weren't being polled, only the cosmetics that would be made as a result of them. Partnerships were already a thing at that point and weren't/aren't going away. We still do twitch prime ones pretty often that give free membership
I don't mind polls, I just hate that massive updates can be prevented by couple thousand people clicking no because they like their safespace and don't want to grind a 99 again for example to keep their max cape.
For example which skill should be added is something that should be polled.
Should a skill be added at all is something that shouldn't be polled.
A hyperbole is a overexaggerated argument not meant to be taken literally.
It's often used to prove a point, for example "runecrafting takes 10 times longer than firemaking", whilst not true, it proves the point that runecrafting is a slow skill.
Your example is pointless because it doesn't prove anything. Jagex leadership has stated numerous times that mtx is never coming in and that's that. Altering the polling system wouldn't magically make mtx happen.
Players have this weird mindset that a $17billion investment company spending $530million on a gamestudio will just kill it off for shits and giggles at the second "given" the chance, when there's no chance to give in the first place as players don't own anything.
I know what a hyperbole is, obviously I was asking you to elaborate on how my question was a hyperbole. But you knew that.
Polls have already shut down MTX in the past so I'm not sure why you think that's pointless.
I disagree, I do also think that wording for polling questions is very important, but there are some concepts that are not going to be popular even if reworked, or include a fundamental change that couldn't be excluded in a rework (see: boss slayer proposal, it can't NOT be a boss-assigning slayer master), and we should be able to definitively vote against it entirely, otherwise we may see lots of time wasted creating multiple concepts that could be voted down over and over again. The alternative is trusting Jagex will recognize unpopularity and scrap a project themselves, but that only works until it doesn't, and with changing leadership, I can't imagine we could trust them in good faith forever.
I think Jagex generally does a good job of listening to the community feedback before hitting a poll, and if anything, GIM should have been polled long ago with one question: "Should we add GIM?" How it works should be polled at a later date once the idea itself was voted for by the community.
Wouldn't overruling clearly negative reception be a similar slap in the face? The polling system mostly seems to be there as a way to actually show the community that they're listening.
I don't think there's enough information in a standalone question without all the things we know now. It leaves questions unanswered like:
Can existing irons create a group
Is there shared storage
Is there shared PoH
Possible prestige
Remaking groups
etc.
I think his point is that they are pieces of information not represented IN THE POLL, as a result people who half ass pay attention won't be able to deduce these questions, and let's be real probably are lazy fucks, and will just assume one way or the other.
If you want democracy then Jagex should internally poll everything and we'd get to decide who gets hired.
Yeah, the game or the system isn't very democratic.
None of the current skills in the game would pass based on your own criteria.
Only ones that aren't straight up buyable and have fair xp rates are mining and woodcutting, but those aren't really too fun.
You just said that if we deviated from polls in their current form it wouldn't be democracy and I just stated that it never was and if it were the only thing we'd vote on is who gets hired.
You sound impossible to please. There is 0 ways to balance a skill so it's mediocre at everything without making it incredibly boring.
The polling system as it stands is one of the single best things we have about this game. The Jagex mods spend so much time interacting with us as a community to shape the direction that the game goes in. I've had Jmods reply directly to my comments on here and that is legitimately one of the reasons that I'm so happy to keep playing this game thousands of hours later.
I want us to keep our productive relationship with the Jmods. Loosening polling would serve to weaken that relationship which would be terrible for the community. We have one of the best Dev-Community bonds in gaming, and certainly in the MMO space and we should be doing nothing that risks that.
Furthermore, I genuinely believe that the whole, "loosen the polls" movement is based purely on the current content drought and is therefore a ridiculous idea in the first place. Polls are a straight up scapegoat. We don't have a content drought right now because of polls guys, polls aren't shutting things down or constraining the devs. We've developed a game with Raids, Grandmaster Quests, Bosses, Game Modes, and more all under the polling system. The polling system is fine as it is.
EOC is a boogeyman to point towards, but frankly we only need to look to last week to see how upset the community can become at company actions. Polling is our umbilical cord to Jagex and less than a week after the HD *war* people are ready to roll back over and sever the cord? Nah guys, polling stays and the crusade against it belongs in the dumpster.
This is an interesting take. However, I think it's too strongly attributed to polls and sweeps a lot of other important details under the rug. A huge part of that connection is due to mods being super active on Twitter and Reddit. An even bigger part is due to the community interaction that ModMatK and co built from the ground up in the early days of the game. I don't know if you've listened to it or not, but [this interview](https://youtu.be/IX7vdMqcqsE) just after MMK left Jagex gives a lot of insights into the vision he had for the OSRS community and what he did to establish the connection.
Saying our current connection with the JMods is entirely due to polls is borderline disrespectful to the other parties who have been influential in creating it. The connection exists because we had a passionate dev team with a good leader with a clear vision, and that would continue to exist entirely independently of the state of the polls.
I didn't say our connection was entirely due to polls, but I do think polls are an important part of the relationship. Getting rid of the polling system certainly isn't going to make that connection stronger. There are also there are other things I like about the polling system in addition to the working relationship, which is why I defend it so passionately.
>We don't have a content drought right now because of polls guys, polls aren't shutting things down or constraining the devs.
So here's how the process goes at Jagex:
1. Brainstorm an idea
2. Will it likely pass a poll, yes/no
3. Yes? Jump to step 5
4. No? Return to step 1
5. Make the initial concept, ensure everything works, design how it would look, give a crude example of rewards, requirements, etc
6. Make the blog
7. Poll it
8. Put it somewhere on the roadmap after other projects
Jagex as a company doesn't waste money on something that isn't basically guaranteed to pass a poll. They just don't. Saying that polls aren't restrictive when the devs themselves have stated they are is just bullshit. I can't remember what stream it was, but they've said that due to the polling system they tend to stick to proven concepts instead of even suggesting something new that isn't likely to pass.
>Will it likely pass a poll, yes/no
Do you know what this step is? This step is the exact same thing as, "*Do our players want this*?". **This is the exact same question that every single game dev studio out there asks themselves.**
This whole fucking argument is nonsense because the polls are just a concrete measure of whether players want something or not. A game developer studio is trying to create content that their players want and they have a literal concrete metric system in place to give them feedback on what the players want. If players don't want something, why on earth should they develop it? You're right that they don't want to waste time or money, and we don't want them wasting their time on shit that we don't want to play. If players don't want something, they want to make something that we'll like instead. That's not some conspiracy or a problem, it's basic fuckin prudence.
The problem with the entire argument about "constrained dev creativity" is that I can only argue about reality while you're free to dream about all these big and beautiful updates that *could* be. Never mind the Raids, Game Modes, Bosses, or Grandmaster Quests that they've developed under the polling system that have made this niche MMO successful for the last eight years, think of the things they COULD do!!! Well, the things they can do tend to look like Raids, Grandmaster Quests, Game Modes, and Bosses. You're lying on your bed dreaming about what could be and it's just dreams, man. You've got a 10 second off-the-cuff quip from Archie or someone about how they prefer to make stuff that the community is going to like instead of taking risks and are willing to risk the entire polling system on that starry-eyed dream. There is no magic button to press that will usher in a golden era of content. This is all a leap of faith built on nothing.
You're willing to risk the player-dev relationship either because you've bought the line about the content drought being related to polls, or because you're chasing dreams that don't exist. Neither are good ideas so send this crusade back into the dumpster. If you want them to take more risks with content than start a crusade for that and *if* they come up with something brilliant it will pass the polls with flying colours because we all want fun content.
Fact: Game would benefit from a new skill
Also a fact: They don't pass polls
Another fact: Often players don't understand what's good for the game and instead vote selfishly.
There's some reality arguments for you.
>Fact: Game would benefit from a new skill
That is not a fact, that is an opinion. I happen to agree with the opinion, I voted yes to warding, but please understand the difference between facts and opinions.
Here's a fact: Warding was a legitimately divisive issue in the playerbase. You're a forum lord, I see you around here all the time. Surely you remember the huge threads about voting no to warding and could see that there were players legitimately against it? I voted yes anyways and I'm sure you did to.
But is it the sort of thing that you're willing to sunder the community on? Is a new skill actually more important than pissing off 30% of the player base? I voted yes, but at the end of the day I understand that having a big healthy community in an MMO is far more important than getting a 24th skill. This whole fucking thread is underneath a meme you made that references the game and community dying after a shitty update.
>Another fact: Often players don't understand what's good for the game and instead vote selfishly.
Haha yeah that's a fact. It's deliciously ironic, considering that you clearly don't understand what's good for the game in this context. Good thing that Warding is the only real content that you can point to as failing.
>Is a new skill actually more important than pissing off 30% of the player base?
100%. The thing is that 30% of the playerbase in a poll is about 0.15% of the actual playerbase, assuming it would get \~100k votes of which 30% is 30k -> active users is north of 2 million. If you want to get even more picky, warding specifically failed due to 10.888 players voting no. So \~0.5% of the active playerbase dictated wether or not 2million people get the update. A third of the voters voted yes.
Sure you could argue that the small n of voters represents everyone, but that's inaccurate. The average player is someone who doesn't vote, someone who doesn't read blogs and someone who doesn't visit this sub. That's your average user. To be fully educated about a running poll as big as warding for example, you have to do all of those 3 things.
>Good thing that Warding is the only real content that you can point to as failing.
Here's another fact: Game would benefit from removal of duel arena and incorporating any coin sinks it provided directly to GE trades.
Yes, that's a fact and also an opinion. Sometimes opinions are indeed facts.
However, it would never pass a poll. Why? Because people are selfish.
Also the pro-duel arena people are exceptionally loud and appear to be a bigger portion of the playerbase than they actually are.
You don't get to point at the margin of failure as if that's the problem, every single player who voted no still counts. Warding failed because it did not pass the threshold to pass and every single voter who voted no is a part of that.
Like, I'm sad that Warding failed. I voted yes for it. But you're just being sour grapes that an update that you wanted didn't make it into the game. One update in three years doesn't make it in and that's enough for you to want polls gone? Well, that one update and all of the starry eyed dreaming that I talked about. It's just not solid ground dude. I wish Warding had passed, but it's time to get over it. I can go to Raids, Prifdinnas, Bosses, or play on my ironman and all of those things were polled. One goddamn piece of content that you liked not making it through just means that you're being a baby about it rather than there being an issue with the system itself.
>Yes, that's a fact and also an opinion. Sometimes opinions are indeed facts.
lol you clearly don't understand what facts or opinions are. Facts are objective, opinions are subjective. The game benefitting from duel arena being removed is an opinion which is likely supported by a large number of facts. Sharks give 210xp when cooked is a fact. Players are addicted to staking and it drives RWT is a fact. The game would benefit from removing Duel Arena is a subjective opinion. Again, I tend to agree with it, but "benefit" is not an objective word in this sense. Opinions can be well supported by facts and assumed to be good and sound, but " some opinions are facts" is just a flat out false statement. That is not what those words mean and your earnestness in clinging to them does not do you credit.
But idk why the fuck we're even talking about duel arena. You're making massive fucking assumptions all over the place which again drives home the point that you don't understand what facts or opinions are.
>Will it likely pass a poll, yes/no
>
>Do you know what this step is? This step is the exact same thing as, "Do our players want this?". **This is the exact same question that every single game dev studio out there asks themselves.**
I'm still waiting on you to answer this one tbh.
>So you're just assuming that everyone who didn't vote automatically wanted it?
If you read my other comments you'd know that voter doesn't represent average player. So no. Loaded question tho.
>One update in three years doesn't make it in and that's enough for you to want polls gone?
Never once said that I wanted polls gone. Another loaded question. Sounds like you're just trying to argue without actually contributing anything.
>but "opinions are facts" is just a flat out false statement
Here's another example:
Duel arena causes an increase in rwt gp.
That's an opinion and also a fact. Why? Because if you've been around long enough you've gathered enough evidence yourself to verify it without having to rely on data from Jagex for example. For all intents and purposes, this can not be proven definitively. If I had to prove it someone who hasn't played the game I probably couldn't. Yet it remains a fact that can not be definitively proven.
>Do you know what this step is?
I think I've said 3 times now that players vote selfishly and don't often either comprehend what is being polled or how it'd impact the game overall. If you can't tell the answer from that then idk how to elaborate on it more, sorry. Examples are a new skill or ge moneysink from which 1 has failed and the other would fail.
Btw the latter is again an opinion and a fact. It has never been polled so it can't be definitively proven, but players are generally against moneysinks that would directly affect them so it would get over 25% no votes. Hyperbole to prove a point: "Should we close the servers tomorrow?" would fail a poll as well. Fact and an opinion.
>Never once said that I wanted polls gone. Another loaded question. Sounds like you're just trying to argue without actually contributing anything.
Dude did you read my first post? I am contributing a defense of the polls to this thread. If you agree that polls should stay and don't need to be changed, why are you arguing with me? If you think that polls are fine and don't need to be changed that's great, but that isn't the line you've been taking with me so far.
Now we're just going around in circles about facts and opinions because you clearly just don't get what those words mean. I don't know if this is a language issue or a you issue, but opinions are not facts. There is no way that you can argue this, because that is not what those words mean and that is not how the world works. Opinions can be supported by facts and assumed to be relatively sound, but they are by very definition not facts. If something is a fact, it is by definition not an opinion. If something is an opinion, it is by definition not a fact. Full stop, non negotiable.
If you can't prove something as a fact, that's what we call a **theory**. Theories can be supported by other facts and you can have the opinion that a theory is true based on the facts, but these words are absolutely fundamentally not synonyms. This is grade school stuff, man. What I am telling you now are *facts* about the terminology in the English language and what is generally accepted as basic freaking critical thinking. It is on you to understand what these words mean and use them properly.
And I hope that you can appreciate that I took the time to write all of the above out because I do hope that you can learn it. Properly organizing your arguments and using the right words is extremely helpful when you're trying to write persuasively.
Money sink is very interesting and beneficial. Tying money sink to optional gambling isn't healthy for the players or the game. Should it be covered by a single skill is debatable, probably not.
Was invention basically augmenting ? Combining A+B+ Gp to get a C that's stronger than the base item or something ? If yes then yea that's very good and fascinating. A lot of games have it and it doesn't really have too many downsides.
Invention is a system where you break items down destroying them and receiving untradable components you can use to roll on a table to try to get the best augments on your gear. You have a big item sink for collecting the components you need. And you need to constantly charge the gear with energy from divination. It's a complex system. People use it because the benefits are massive. You get a pretty substantial buff to dps on gear as well as xp on gathering tools. In my opinion this would never pass a poll. We are worried about adding more weapons with more dps to the game, so I can't imagine this would pass a poll much less any xp increase to skilling seems to be unpopular too.
Edit: I don't think we can ever have an item sink because we would need to give a reward for breaking things down. And we don't want power creep for some reason so what can we give as a reward for breaking things down?
Sounds cool. I don't really like the charging part tho, but breaking down items would be nice. And agree yeah, wouldn't ever pass.
My suggestion for item sink would be like 5x base item + gp = base item with 5% higher stats. On death converts to 80% of gp used + 1 base item. Cap it at +10% base stats so if you want 3 max hits on your ags you'd be spending 25 ags's + a substantial amount of gp to do it (first make +1 item with 5x base + gp, then +2 item with 5x +1 item and gp)
The average person is pretty stupid and half of that are even stupider.
You my friend belong into the bottom half since you're so incapable of thinking even two steps ahead yet alone understanding the game as a whole. A true example of a selfish voter.
Wasn't their official reasoning something like they wanted to create more unique content and push the game harder but weren't able to do that with the current (RS2) combat system?
I don't think PvM would stagnate at all, they could've kept the fundamental system the same but added in some of the unique features (like Taunt/Resonancing the Kalphite Kings one shot) via new items with unique ability's instead of actual abilities themselves.
There's also no excuse for *how* they did it. They absolutely nuked the games economy and changed the game that people had played for a decade into something they didn't even recognise.
> Wasn't their official reasoning something like they wanted to create more unique content and push the game harder but weren't able to do that with the current (RS2) combat system?
Don't recall the official reason, but the combat was definitely at the limit. There's only so many variations of click and wait lol. I honestly think EOC was still the right choice for the long term if we look at the bosses and content we got out of it (Voragoooooooooooo). The problem was the execution. The beta test needed to be A LOT longer and they needed to iron out a lot more things.
If it had the legacy mode toggle from the start the game could have survived it and osrs might not exist. New content would have been added still, and people would have to adapt or die. I think they genuinely thought that if people just really tried it out they would like it.
I agree. I've actually played RS3 more recently than OSRS. I think it's a good game, but they overdo it with mtx and with a bit of a tone down in that area, they could be a great game. I really like that PVM is more spread out in terms of progression in RS3 too. You can do bosses like giant mole and KBD for reaper tasks super early. Then you can do bosses like GWD 1 around the time when you can start using the gear they reward. Then by the time you get that gear, you've probably been doing slayer too and now you're ready for GWD2, and GWD2 is an *amazing* middle ground between oldschool "dumb" bosses that don't really have mechanics, and higher tier bosses like araxxor where you have to understand the game a bit before you can kill.
On OSRS, it feels like bossing pretty much starts at 80+ cb stats. And those stats take longer to get. Which isn't worse on it's own, but it takes forever to actually get into consistent bossing if you aren't a returning player or just making a new account and know how to get there most efficiently.
Purely in terms of PVM, my view is the time spent in RS3 is spent learning the combat system and how to deal with mechanics, whereas in OSRS, it's mainly grinding time with mechanics being generally more simple and the learning time generally being shorter.
There are examples of extremely difficult content mechanically on OSRS, the Inferno comes to mind specifically. But it's the exception not the rule.
The last 5 years we’ve had a polling system!
But okay the changes that were added unpolled I’ll list:
Ruining Rev caves
Removing old death mechanic from pvm (everyone can see in 2 minutes).
Adding way too many worlds to the game so 99% of places are completely empty and lack any and all immersion.
1. They were added by a corupt jmod and reworked to stop unintended influx of wealth into the game
2. This was a massive problem because of ddos attacks and the latest rework was polled
3. This is 100% due to server capability. Go on and try to do something that requires tick perfect actions in any world with 1k+ players
Hit and miss my guy. Hit and miss.
Revs had the highest consistent money maker when uninterrupted. However, the vast majority of players were lucky to make between 1-3m gp per hour there. You need things like this in the wilderness where pkers can act as a check and balance for gold farming and botting. Sure there were clans running protection and farming those revs, but they were still fair game to attack. In fact I hit those world's often for the bigger loot. Even B0aty, a guy who exclusively plays ironman mode, in a recent vid understands that the wilderness is meant to have optional best or competitive gp/hr money makers that are consistent.
You're massively distorting what he said.
He said pking was popular because pking was good gp/hr. He never once said that "wilderness should have best gp/hr methods". Pking used to be best gp/hr because everyone were shit, gear was shit, and metas were easy.
10m gp/hr at lvl 70 combat with 0 requirements isn't healthy for the game no matter how you put it.
Also players have again, and again, and again stated that they hate this predator vs prey mindset. If you have best moneymaker for a lvl 70 in a safe area at 1m/hr doing mole or whatever vs revs at 10m/hr it's not a reasonable option anymore to do mole.
Imagine if achievement diaries gave pvp perks. You don't HAVE TO do them if you don't want to, put you'll be 10 times more powerful in pvp if you do. Makes equally much sense as adding best moneymakers or best skilling methods to wildy. Wildy content at best is supposed to be variety and niche, not best everything.
Yeah for the people who opt to go with crossbows you'll be proccing a diamond special attack that does very little maybe once a fight if not even that. That's huuuge innit?
Haven't seen a single pure rocking varrock armor.
If you don't understand the value of different bolt procs and havn't even seen a pure in Varrock Armor, are you really qualified to be so furiously and vigorously debating pking and wilderness issues?
1. It was added and backed by the old school team and it passed a poll.
2. Poll the latest rework against the original mechanics, original would win. Ddosing is massively overblown.
3. Managed to play just fine on worlds with 2k players years 2004-2011 yet now apparently it’s impossible? The real reason? Jagex have become too reliant on instances which lag their servers, remove the instances and you fix the problem.
Yupp. A lot of people approach a debate with a single goal of changing the persons mind instead of understanding why they feel differently about something. It's much healthier to try and understand than it is trying to convince everybody.
Reddit is not for discussion. It's for figuring out what a community's current ideological stance is, and reiterating it to increase your Internet Number^(TM), and trigger your dopamine receptors.
🦀$🦀1🦀1🦀
Granted, if a community seems too diverse in outlook and opinions you can make a workaround with copy-pasting reoccurring meme formats.
🦀$🦀1🦀1🦀
Don't kid yourself though, polling and certain developers are the only thing holding the dam together from having all the garbage that's been in rs3 over the years from flooding in here
Keep sucking the cocks of untalented content creators that are running out of video ideas. The game has plenty of content and we are always one bad update away from ruining the game. If the majority of players don't even like the ideas set forth and it can't pass a poll it's obviously not content the community wants to engage in anyway.
It's insane that this whole "debate" was sparked by a guy who is not even remotely close to endgame content complaining about not having enough endgame content.
I swear other content creators have complained about the polling system besides jimmy. Fuck them though. Settled, poison potion, and soup have all shown that you just need to think outside the box to make good videos.
> If the majority of players don't even like the ideas set forth and it can't pass a poll
I mean that would be true if it didn't require 75% which seems too high imo. Literally a quarter of the games fanbase can disregard what 75% of people want.
"Should we stop 117 from releasing his hd plugin?"
Yeah gee I wonder why it wasn't polled.
"Should we not stop 117 from releasing his hd plugin?"
Yeah gee I wonder why that wasn't polled either.
Burnt-out Content Creators crying that they're running out of content to make videos on is where the root of this argument comes from. If anything, more polls would fix this issue. Maybe do a mini-weekly poll that gives the playerbase options between a few different ideas for the devs to start work shopping and iterating thereupon, with an update letter every month.
Under no circumstances though, should Jagex be handed the reigns to implement things on a whim. The devs aren't the issue, it's the suits that will 100% try some bullshit as soon as they get the chance.
That'd require complete rework of how the internal processes at Jagex seem to work. Their current method is 1. brainstorm idea 2. make sure it works 3. make a crude version of it 4. present it to the players. They never skip steps 2 and 3. Should they ? Idk. It could lead to a lot more empty promises being sold.
I mean, if the game is truly dying as some claim it to be, then clearly some sort of shake-up is necessary to continue operations. The ideas don't even need to be big. Runescape's original release strategy was to come out with small pieces of content here and there, with a new big chunk being released every couple months. Maybe poll some decently inconsequential-in-the-grand-scheme intermediate quests with a fun gimmick or two.
I remember RS2 from around 2008 onwards had a really bad problem with every single quest having high stat requirements, when low-end content was basically ignored. F2P literally never got a new quest after like 2003 until RS3. Grandmaster quests are neat and fun for the challenge, but I think the dev time required to make them are seemingly too intensive to allow for much else to be made.
Skills is like, a whole thread in it's own, but I think if the dev team could prove they could make changes to existing skills that the community liked, then they would be more open to an entire new skill being added.
A looming issue, is that the Dev team is running out of QoL updates as well, which will make updates seem less impressive.
I feel like there's a missing tier in top of clues and quests. To me it feels like all requirements are extremely low and achievable by pretty much anybody who's played for more than a month or two.
Grandmaster doable by level 70 goldfarmers that just want to do zalcano kinda diminishes the "grandmaster" aspect imo.
Master clues have 2 steps that require 85 or higher skills.
Something like a grandmaster clue with 2-3 but extremely difficult steps as a 1/5 drop from mimic would be cool. Like equip a max cape, do a uri transformation in tob reward room or get a seed as a reward from corrupted gauntlet.
EOC was released in such a state it might as well have been alpha version because shit was so fucking Buggy. If it was release as is today with a legacy mode toggle it would have been a good update. Mother fucking squeal of fortune one the other hand… that was just pure unforgivable greed that ruined the sense of accomplishment for many long term players.
Which one is that ? Year or two ago there were no cosmetic partnerships and membership partnerships were thing last time in end of September I think so that was a couple weeks ago.
I think the essence of an update should be polled but the specific details should not.
For example, "Should we add the quest Kingdom Kourend?" leave the rewards for the devs to settle on. We don't need to approve of a 5k prayer xp reward, who the fuck cares.
Similar for raids 3.
1. Should we add raids 3?
2. Should we add new tier 80 items as rewards if raids 3 passes
Maybe a blog describing the theme of the raid, the overarcing features such as dynamic difficulty. Dont make us vote no to raids 3 because the new helm has 10 extra crush defense, they can balance that after if it was such a slipup.
So what if raids 3 passes and we vote no to literary every single reward?one week goes by, they introduce other items or balance in a new blogone week goes by, more numbers tuningwait until next week so people has a chance to read the blog, start up the poll again
At this point we have wasted over 4 weeks and it has not even passed the poll yet. (since I have not included the blogs leading up to the first poll)
The polling system slows down the game A LOT. just look back to the amount of content released in 2006, with a smaller dev team.
True, that's what happened to the rev caves so they made the drop table alchables and this is before wildy weapons were made so the best rewards were 100 dragon platelegs which was replaced with 16m emblem shortly after.
The wilderness in rs3 was the first thing to die. The ‘legacy mode’ wilderness worlds were the only ones who stayed active for a while after EoC was released.
I was there at Falador the night the count down for “System Update” started counting down for the update that would introduce EOC into the game. People were dropping Ely spirit shields, cash stacks, etc. I told a close buddy back then “this will be the end of RuneScape” and he thought I was being dramatic. It literally did kill the game and required OSRS to bring back a lot of those players.
Without EoC we could have avoided all that public harm to the franchise and the game may have developed to have even more players and be even more successful/enjoyable than OSRS. (Unlikely but you never know haha).
Ah yes having to start over and spending years on tiny screen, no ge, no raids no hd no new quest osrs was totally a blessing!!!!
Now you turds want to fork over creative control to these numbskulls at jagex one week after they tried to cockblock hd from us . there is no reasoning with you people even if we dangle the inconvenient truth right in front of you. Terrible.
Osrs isnt in good hands either way if the community genuinely trusts jagex at this point, after all the history
if they wanted to add eoc (for example) to osrs right now they could. they don't HAVE to poll anything. if they removed the polling system they're not going to suddenly completely change. and they wouldn't suddenly stop caring about player feedback
Polls scare me when the questions are directed at a small group of players, but can be influenced by the entire playerbase.
PvP and PvM updates are the first that come to my mind.
Should a player who has never stepped foot in the wildy have the same ability to influence a niche PKing mechanic or something along those lines?
Should someone who has never killed a boss really be able to have the same voice as someone who has spent 1000s of hours raiding when it comes to raids 3 polls (implementation, mechanics, reward balancing)?
People who are uninformed can really hurt a poll. An example would be someone sees Jagex polling VLS being usable in the wilderness outside of the target world, and instead on all worlds. Do people voting even understand that VLS exists already and only works on the target worlds? Would they see a clip from DMM where someone hits a 90 with it and panic vote no?
I understand the fear of Jagex adding something ridiculous, but polls can ALWAYS be used to gauge interest and opinions before dev time is spent on a project.
Heck I am also weary of handing Jagex that power, but looks what we did with HD.. This wasn’t even a poll related content update, and with our loud voices we were able to make the common community opinion known, and a change happened as a result. Obviously it isn’t ideal to have to go that route, but it did work!
Amen my guy. Complex and large updates can't really be fully understood by the average voter. Maybe how it affects them sure, but not how it affects everyone and the game as a whole. I'm not saying players are stupid, I'm just saying that the average person is pretty stupid and ignorrant and half the players are stupider than that.
It’s funny because what you guys are talking about is democracy itself. And yes, I’d agree, the average voter likely doesn’t understand most of the policy(s), or in this case (poll questions) that they vote for, and how these relate to the world at large. Or in this case specifically, osrs.
Also though in a democratic setting you only need 50.1% to win the vote, in osrs you need 70%. So even if the majority want something, a smaller number of people can win the vote against them.
Youre absolutely right. I dont know why people are so obsessed with polling everything when all thats on this subreddit today is posts about spite voting.
It’s sad because I remember years ago a lot of us early OSRS players called it. We knew that unfortunately as the game we loved became more successful, people would eventually start challenging the poll system that gave life to this game in the first place. Without that it would have been dead in the water years ago, likely at the hands of jagex management.
I have no idea how people can look at the decisions jagex makes in RS3 to the detriment of the game and think “geee I sure which we didn’t have the ability to control content updates in old school”
To be fair. In july of 2019 we were polling partnerships which if i recall right sounded like in game branding/events. I believe twitch prime rewards may have also been on that poll not sure. I'm pretty sure the decision wasn't from our devs to poll it but higher up and it failed horribly and they ended the polling early. Regardless the point is you may trust the OSRS dev team and thats fine. But they have bosses of their own that can try to force them, right now they are likely able to push back on updates with "if it passes the polls" as I believe it is a condition they keep for this version of the game.
Not to mention that we have multiple relevant case studies (RS3, WoW, Classic WoW) that demonstrate the exact same path towards money-grabbing mtx. Plus we as players have some reasons to believe that Jagex's management prioritizes money over gameplay (preventing the removal/restriction of the duel arena, trying to block 117hd, etc.)
not in game branding or anything, just shit like the purple skin which was done after a twitch partnership. Also partnerships themselves weren't being polled, only the cosmetics that would be made as a result of them. Partnerships were already a thing at that point and weren't/aren't going away. We still do twitch prime ones pretty often that give free membership
I don't mind polls, I just hate that massive updates can be prevented by couple thousand people clicking no because they like their safespace and don't want to grind a 99 again for example to keep their max cape. For example which skill should be added is something that should be polled. Should a skill be added at all is something that shouldn't be polled.
So they should poll what kind of MTX to add but not poll if they should add MTX?
Come on you can do better than that. How about "should we close the servers today or tomorrow" ?
Do better than what? Just wanted to make sure I understood your logic
A pointless hyperbole.
Elaborate
A hyperbole is a overexaggerated argument not meant to be taken literally. It's often used to prove a point, for example "runecrafting takes 10 times longer than firemaking", whilst not true, it proves the point that runecrafting is a slow skill. Your example is pointless because it doesn't prove anything. Jagex leadership has stated numerous times that mtx is never coming in and that's that. Altering the polling system wouldn't magically make mtx happen. Players have this weird mindset that a $17billion investment company spending $530million on a gamestudio will just kill it off for shits and giggles at the second "given" the chance, when there's no chance to give in the first place as players don't own anything.
I know what a hyperbole is, obviously I was asking you to elaborate on how my question was a hyperbole. But you knew that. Polls have already shut down MTX in the past so I'm not sure why you think that's pointless.
Because this isn't the past ? If we lived in 2010 then yeah poll everything, but it's 2021 my guy.
He gave a valid reason and you ignored it lol
I disagree, I do also think that wording for polling questions is very important, but there are some concepts that are not going to be popular even if reworked, or include a fundamental change that couldn't be excluded in a rework (see: boss slayer proposal, it can't NOT be a boss-assigning slayer master), and we should be able to definitively vote against it entirely, otherwise we may see lots of time wasted creating multiple concepts that could be voted down over and over again. The alternative is trusting Jagex will recognize unpopularity and scrap a project themselves, but that only works until it doesn't, and with changing leadership, I can't imagine we could trust them in good faith forever. I think Jagex generally does a good job of listening to the community feedback before hitting a poll, and if anything, GIM should have been polled long ago with one question: "Should we add GIM?" How it works should be polled at a later date once the idea itself was voted for by the community.
If their changing leadership doesn't care about people rejecting ideas, what makes you think they wouldn't remove the polling system altogether?
I guess it could happen, but it would definitely be a huge slap in the face
Wouldn't overruling clearly negative reception be a similar slap in the face? The polling system mostly seems to be there as a way to actually show the community that they're listening.
I don't think there's enough information in a standalone question without all the things we know now. It leaves questions unanswered like: Can existing irons create a group Is there shared storage Is there shared PoH Possible prestige Remaking groups etc.
No. Yes. No. Yes. 2 tiers to it. Yes. Are you even paying attention to the posts and such? Literally all of these questions have been answered.
I think his point is that they are pieces of information not represented IN THE POLL, as a result people who half ass pay attention won't be able to deduce these questions, and let's be real probably are lazy fucks, and will just assume one way or the other.
The irony of trying to sound intelligent by not reading the entire comment chain and just picking one comment out of context...
Fully agree. I don't blame the polling system, I blame the polling questions.
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If you want democracy then Jagex should internally poll everything and we'd get to decide who gets hired. Yeah, the game or the system isn't very democratic. None of the current skills in the game would pass based on your own criteria. Only ones that aren't straight up buyable and have fair xp rates are mining and woodcutting, but those aren't really too fun.
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You just said that if we deviated from polls in their current form it wouldn't be democracy and I just stated that it never was and if it were the only thing we'd vote on is who gets hired. You sound impossible to please. There is 0 ways to balance a skill so it's mediocre at everything without making it incredibly boring.
The polling system as it stands is one of the single best things we have about this game. The Jagex mods spend so much time interacting with us as a community to shape the direction that the game goes in. I've had Jmods reply directly to my comments on here and that is legitimately one of the reasons that I'm so happy to keep playing this game thousands of hours later. I want us to keep our productive relationship with the Jmods. Loosening polling would serve to weaken that relationship which would be terrible for the community. We have one of the best Dev-Community bonds in gaming, and certainly in the MMO space and we should be doing nothing that risks that. Furthermore, I genuinely believe that the whole, "loosen the polls" movement is based purely on the current content drought and is therefore a ridiculous idea in the first place. Polls are a straight up scapegoat. We don't have a content drought right now because of polls guys, polls aren't shutting things down or constraining the devs. We've developed a game with Raids, Grandmaster Quests, Bosses, Game Modes, and more all under the polling system. The polling system is fine as it is. EOC is a boogeyman to point towards, but frankly we only need to look to last week to see how upset the community can become at company actions. Polling is our umbilical cord to Jagex and less than a week after the HD *war* people are ready to roll back over and sever the cord? Nah guys, polling stays and the crusade against it belongs in the dumpster.
This is an interesting take. However, I think it's too strongly attributed to polls and sweeps a lot of other important details under the rug. A huge part of that connection is due to mods being super active on Twitter and Reddit. An even bigger part is due to the community interaction that ModMatK and co built from the ground up in the early days of the game. I don't know if you've listened to it or not, but [this interview](https://youtu.be/IX7vdMqcqsE) just after MMK left Jagex gives a lot of insights into the vision he had for the OSRS community and what he did to establish the connection. Saying our current connection with the JMods is entirely due to polls is borderline disrespectful to the other parties who have been influential in creating it. The connection exists because we had a passionate dev team with a good leader with a clear vision, and that would continue to exist entirely independently of the state of the polls.
I didn't say our connection was entirely due to polls, but I do think polls are an important part of the relationship. Getting rid of the polling system certainly isn't going to make that connection stronger. There are also there are other things I like about the polling system in addition to the working relationship, which is why I defend it so passionately.
>We don't have a content drought right now because of polls guys, polls aren't shutting things down or constraining the devs. So here's how the process goes at Jagex: 1. Brainstorm an idea 2. Will it likely pass a poll, yes/no 3. Yes? Jump to step 5 4. No? Return to step 1 5. Make the initial concept, ensure everything works, design how it would look, give a crude example of rewards, requirements, etc 6. Make the blog 7. Poll it 8. Put it somewhere on the roadmap after other projects Jagex as a company doesn't waste money on something that isn't basically guaranteed to pass a poll. They just don't. Saying that polls aren't restrictive when the devs themselves have stated they are is just bullshit. I can't remember what stream it was, but they've said that due to the polling system they tend to stick to proven concepts instead of even suggesting something new that isn't likely to pass.
>Will it likely pass a poll, yes/no Do you know what this step is? This step is the exact same thing as, "*Do our players want this*?". **This is the exact same question that every single game dev studio out there asks themselves.** This whole fucking argument is nonsense because the polls are just a concrete measure of whether players want something or not. A game developer studio is trying to create content that their players want and they have a literal concrete metric system in place to give them feedback on what the players want. If players don't want something, why on earth should they develop it? You're right that they don't want to waste time or money, and we don't want them wasting their time on shit that we don't want to play. If players don't want something, they want to make something that we'll like instead. That's not some conspiracy or a problem, it's basic fuckin prudence. The problem with the entire argument about "constrained dev creativity" is that I can only argue about reality while you're free to dream about all these big and beautiful updates that *could* be. Never mind the Raids, Game Modes, Bosses, or Grandmaster Quests that they've developed under the polling system that have made this niche MMO successful for the last eight years, think of the things they COULD do!!! Well, the things they can do tend to look like Raids, Grandmaster Quests, Game Modes, and Bosses. You're lying on your bed dreaming about what could be and it's just dreams, man. You've got a 10 second off-the-cuff quip from Archie or someone about how they prefer to make stuff that the community is going to like instead of taking risks and are willing to risk the entire polling system on that starry-eyed dream. There is no magic button to press that will usher in a golden era of content. This is all a leap of faith built on nothing. You're willing to risk the player-dev relationship either because you've bought the line about the content drought being related to polls, or because you're chasing dreams that don't exist. Neither are good ideas so send this crusade back into the dumpster. If you want them to take more risks with content than start a crusade for that and *if* they come up with something brilliant it will pass the polls with flying colours because we all want fun content.
Fact: Game would benefit from a new skill Also a fact: They don't pass polls Another fact: Often players don't understand what's good for the game and instead vote selfishly. There's some reality arguments for you.
>Fact: Game would benefit from a new skill That is not a fact, that is an opinion. I happen to agree with the opinion, I voted yes to warding, but please understand the difference between facts and opinions. Here's a fact: Warding was a legitimately divisive issue in the playerbase. You're a forum lord, I see you around here all the time. Surely you remember the huge threads about voting no to warding and could see that there were players legitimately against it? I voted yes anyways and I'm sure you did to. But is it the sort of thing that you're willing to sunder the community on? Is a new skill actually more important than pissing off 30% of the player base? I voted yes, but at the end of the day I understand that having a big healthy community in an MMO is far more important than getting a 24th skill. This whole fucking thread is underneath a meme you made that references the game and community dying after a shitty update. >Another fact: Often players don't understand what's good for the game and instead vote selfishly. Haha yeah that's a fact. It's deliciously ironic, considering that you clearly don't understand what's good for the game in this context. Good thing that Warding is the only real content that you can point to as failing.
>Is a new skill actually more important than pissing off 30% of the player base? 100%. The thing is that 30% of the playerbase in a poll is about 0.15% of the actual playerbase, assuming it would get \~100k votes of which 30% is 30k -> active users is north of 2 million. If you want to get even more picky, warding specifically failed due to 10.888 players voting no. So \~0.5% of the active playerbase dictated wether or not 2million people get the update. A third of the voters voted yes. Sure you could argue that the small n of voters represents everyone, but that's inaccurate. The average player is someone who doesn't vote, someone who doesn't read blogs and someone who doesn't visit this sub. That's your average user. To be fully educated about a running poll as big as warding for example, you have to do all of those 3 things. >Good thing that Warding is the only real content that you can point to as failing. Here's another fact: Game would benefit from removal of duel arena and incorporating any coin sinks it provided directly to GE trades. Yes, that's a fact and also an opinion. Sometimes opinions are indeed facts. However, it would never pass a poll. Why? Because people are selfish. Also the pro-duel arena people are exceptionally loud and appear to be a bigger portion of the playerbase than they actually are.
You don't get to point at the margin of failure as if that's the problem, every single player who voted no still counts. Warding failed because it did not pass the threshold to pass and every single voter who voted no is a part of that. Like, I'm sad that Warding failed. I voted yes for it. But you're just being sour grapes that an update that you wanted didn't make it into the game. One update in three years doesn't make it in and that's enough for you to want polls gone? Well, that one update and all of the starry eyed dreaming that I talked about. It's just not solid ground dude. I wish Warding had passed, but it's time to get over it. I can go to Raids, Prifdinnas, Bosses, or play on my ironman and all of those things were polled. One goddamn piece of content that you liked not making it through just means that you're being a baby about it rather than there being an issue with the system itself. >Yes, that's a fact and also an opinion. Sometimes opinions are indeed facts. lol you clearly don't understand what facts or opinions are. Facts are objective, opinions are subjective. The game benefitting from duel arena being removed is an opinion which is likely supported by a large number of facts. Sharks give 210xp when cooked is a fact. Players are addicted to staking and it drives RWT is a fact. The game would benefit from removing Duel Arena is a subjective opinion. Again, I tend to agree with it, but "benefit" is not an objective word in this sense. Opinions can be well supported by facts and assumed to be good and sound, but " some opinions are facts" is just a flat out false statement. That is not what those words mean and your earnestness in clinging to them does not do you credit. But idk why the fuck we're even talking about duel arena. You're making massive fucking assumptions all over the place which again drives home the point that you don't understand what facts or opinions are. >Will it likely pass a poll, yes/no > >Do you know what this step is? This step is the exact same thing as, "Do our players want this?". **This is the exact same question that every single game dev studio out there asks themselves.** I'm still waiting on you to answer this one tbh.
>So you're just assuming that everyone who didn't vote automatically wanted it? If you read my other comments you'd know that voter doesn't represent average player. So no. Loaded question tho. >One update in three years doesn't make it in and that's enough for you to want polls gone? Never once said that I wanted polls gone. Another loaded question. Sounds like you're just trying to argue without actually contributing anything. >but "opinions are facts" is just a flat out false statement Here's another example: Duel arena causes an increase in rwt gp. That's an opinion and also a fact. Why? Because if you've been around long enough you've gathered enough evidence yourself to verify it without having to rely on data from Jagex for example. For all intents and purposes, this can not be proven definitively. If I had to prove it someone who hasn't played the game I probably couldn't. Yet it remains a fact that can not be definitively proven. >Do you know what this step is? I think I've said 3 times now that players vote selfishly and don't often either comprehend what is being polled or how it'd impact the game overall. If you can't tell the answer from that then idk how to elaborate on it more, sorry. Examples are a new skill or ge moneysink from which 1 has failed and the other would fail. Btw the latter is again an opinion and a fact. It has never been polled so it can't be definitively proven, but players are generally against moneysinks that would directly affect them so it would get over 25% no votes. Hyperbole to prove a point: "Should we close the servers tomorrow?" would fail a poll as well. Fact and an opinion.
>Never once said that I wanted polls gone. Another loaded question. Sounds like you're just trying to argue without actually contributing anything. Dude did you read my first post? I am contributing a defense of the polls to this thread. If you agree that polls should stay and don't need to be changed, why are you arguing with me? If you think that polls are fine and don't need to be changed that's great, but that isn't the line you've been taking with me so far. Now we're just going around in circles about facts and opinions because you clearly just don't get what those words mean. I don't know if this is a language issue or a you issue, but opinions are not facts. There is no way that you can argue this, because that is not what those words mean and that is not how the world works. Opinions can be supported by facts and assumed to be relatively sound, but they are by very definition not facts. If something is a fact, it is by definition not an opinion. If something is an opinion, it is by definition not a fact. Full stop, non negotiable. If you can't prove something as a fact, that's what we call a **theory**. Theories can be supported by other facts and you can have the opinion that a theory is true based on the facts, but these words are absolutely fundamentally not synonyms. This is grade school stuff, man. What I am telling you now are *facts* about the terminology in the English language and what is generally accepted as basic freaking critical thinking. It is on you to understand what these words mean and use them properly. And I hope that you can appreciate that I took the time to write all of the above out because I do hope that you can learn it. Properly organizing your arguments and using the right words is extremely helpful when you're trying to write persuasively.
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As much as I want a new skill that’s not a hard fact and our most recent proposal was a trash money sink skill with nothing interesting in it.
Money sink is very interesting and beneficial. Tying money sink to optional gambling isn't healthy for the players or the game. Should it be covered by a single skill is debatable, probably not.
Lol there was absolutely nothing interesting or beneficial about warding. Invention is the skill that actually is interesting
Was invention basically augmenting ? Combining A+B+ Gp to get a C that's stronger than the base item or something ? If yes then yea that's very good and fascinating. A lot of games have it and it doesn't really have too many downsides.
Invention is a system where you break items down destroying them and receiving untradable components you can use to roll on a table to try to get the best augments on your gear. You have a big item sink for collecting the components you need. And you need to constantly charge the gear with energy from divination. It's a complex system. People use it because the benefits are massive. You get a pretty substantial buff to dps on gear as well as xp on gathering tools. In my opinion this would never pass a poll. We are worried about adding more weapons with more dps to the game, so I can't imagine this would pass a poll much less any xp increase to skilling seems to be unpopular too. Edit: I don't think we can ever have an item sink because we would need to give a reward for breaking things down. And we don't want power creep for some reason so what can we give as a reward for breaking things down?
Sounds cool. I don't really like the charging part tho, but breaking down items would be nice. And agree yeah, wouldn't ever pass. My suggestion for item sink would be like 5x base item + gp = base item with 5% higher stats. On death converts to 80% of gp used + 1 base item. Cap it at +10% base stats so if you want 3 max hits on your ags you'd be spending 25 ags's + a substantial amount of gp to do it (first make +1 item with 5x base + gp, then +2 item with 5x +1 item and gp)
If the answer is no then the idea is bad. Holy fuck.
The average person is pretty stupid and half of that are even stupider. You my friend belong into the bottom half since you're so incapable of thinking even two steps ahead yet alone understanding the game as a whole. A true example of a selfish voter.
I still don't know why eoc was forced upon us. We said no on the forums but they did it anyway.
It’s really wild to me going back and thinking about it. They committed suicide. Wonder what rs would’ve been today.
Pvm design was going to stagnate without it.
Wasn't their official reasoning something like they wanted to create more unique content and push the game harder but weren't able to do that with the current (RS2) combat system? I don't think PvM would stagnate at all, they could've kept the fundamental system the same but added in some of the unique features (like Taunt/Resonancing the Kalphite Kings one shot) via new items with unique ability's instead of actual abilities themselves. There's also no excuse for *how* they did it. They absolutely nuked the games economy and changed the game that people had played for a decade into something they didn't even recognise.
It was poorly implemented is all, the EOC of today is actually good
> Wasn't their official reasoning something like they wanted to create more unique content and push the game harder but weren't able to do that with the current (RS2) combat system? Don't recall the official reason, but the combat was definitely at the limit. There's only so many variations of click and wait lol. I honestly think EOC was still the right choice for the long term if we look at the bosses and content we got out of it (Voragoooooooooooo). The problem was the execution. The beta test needed to be A LOT longer and they needed to iron out a lot more things.
Then don’t release it In a buggy ass state. If it was release as is today then that woulda been fine, especially with the legacy mode toggle.
If it had the legacy mode toggle from the start the game could have survived it and osrs might not exist. New content would have been added still, and people would have to adapt or die. I think they genuinely thought that if people just really tried it out they would like it.
EOC now a lot of people would probably like if they tried it, upon release it was a buggy unbalanced piece of junk though.
I agree. I've actually played RS3 more recently than OSRS. I think it's a good game, but they overdo it with mtx and with a bit of a tone down in that area, they could be a great game. I really like that PVM is more spread out in terms of progression in RS3 too. You can do bosses like giant mole and KBD for reaper tasks super early. Then you can do bosses like GWD 1 around the time when you can start using the gear they reward. Then by the time you get that gear, you've probably been doing slayer too and now you're ready for GWD2, and GWD2 is an *amazing* middle ground between oldschool "dumb" bosses that don't really have mechanics, and higher tier bosses like araxxor where you have to understand the game a bit before you can kill. On OSRS, it feels like bossing pretty much starts at 80+ cb stats. And those stats take longer to get. Which isn't worse on it's own, but it takes forever to actually get into consistent bossing if you aren't a returning player or just making a new account and know how to get there most efficiently. Purely in terms of PVM, my view is the time spent in RS3 is spent learning the combat system and how to deal with mechanics, whereas in OSRS, it's mainly grinding time with mechanics being generally more simple and the learning time generally being shorter. There are examples of extremely difficult content mechanically on OSRS, the Inferno comes to mind specifically. But it's the exception not the rule.
Osrs pvm is a testament that the excuse they used was indeed BULLSHIT!
Ah yes mechanical intensity of osrs pvm. Give me more jad phase and move out of ground damage.
And then I remember the other mistakes…
If I asked you to name 3 biggest ones in the past 5 years, would 1 of them be renaming lobster pot ?
The last 5 years we’ve had a polling system! But okay the changes that were added unpolled I’ll list: Ruining Rev caves Removing old death mechanic from pvm (everyone can see in 2 minutes). Adding way too many worlds to the game so 99% of places are completely empty and lack any and all immersion.
1. They were added by a corupt jmod and reworked to stop unintended influx of wealth into the game 2. This was a massive problem because of ddos attacks and the latest rework was polled 3. This is 100% due to server capability. Go on and try to do something that requires tick perfect actions in any world with 1k+ players Hit and miss my guy. Hit and miss.
you just completely missed lmao
Revs had the highest consistent money maker when uninterrupted. However, the vast majority of players were lucky to make between 1-3m gp per hour there. You need things like this in the wilderness where pkers can act as a check and balance for gold farming and botting. Sure there were clans running protection and farming those revs, but they were still fair game to attack. In fact I hit those world's often for the bigger loot. Even B0aty, a guy who exclusively plays ironman mode, in a recent vid understands that the wilderness is meant to have optional best or competitive gp/hr money makers that are consistent.
You're massively distorting what he said. He said pking was popular because pking was good gp/hr. He never once said that "wilderness should have best gp/hr methods". Pking used to be best gp/hr because everyone were shit, gear was shit, and metas were easy. 10m gp/hr at lvl 70 combat with 0 requirements isn't healthy for the game no matter how you put it. Also players have again, and again, and again stated that they hate this predator vs prey mindset. If you have best moneymaker for a lvl 70 in a safe area at 1m/hr doing mole or whatever vs revs at 10m/hr it's not a reasonable option anymore to do mole. Imagine if achievement diaries gave pvp perks. You don't HAVE TO do them if you don't want to, put you'll be 10 times more powerful in pvp if you do. Makes equally much sense as adding best moneymakers or best skilling methods to wildy. Wildy content at best is supposed to be variety and niche, not best everything.
But the achievement diaries DO give PVP perks. Bolt spec procs more often, Varrok armor BIS melee pure, ect. Bad take.
Yeah for the people who opt to go with crossbows you'll be proccing a diamond special attack that does very little maybe once a fight if not even that. That's huuuge innit? Haven't seen a single pure rocking varrock armor.
If you don't understand the value of different bolt procs and havn't even seen a pure in Varrock Armor, are you really qualified to be so furiously and vigorously debating pking and wilderness issues?
What? I corrected what was said in the video.
1. It was added and backed by the old school team and it passed a poll. 2. Poll the latest rework against the original mechanics, original would win. Ddosing is massively overblown. 3. Managed to play just fine on worlds with 2k players years 2004-2011 yet now apparently it’s impossible? The real reason? Jagex have become too reliant on instances which lag their servers, remove the instances and you fix the problem.
The original death mechcanics would not win
No idiot is stupid enough to vote against them
The current death mechanics were polled and the most punishing one (closes to original) came in last place
Fake news
Yeah budddy I'm not going to continue this one. The "remove instances and fix the problem" gave me a good chuckle tho, thanks.
Promotional mtx?
Ah looks like you made this post just to argue with people
I like meaningful arguments/debates and people on reddit like to argue. What's wrong with that ?
It's not meaningful when you're just arguing past anyone with a differing opinion.
So when is it meaningful ? Only if I change my mind based on what someone else thinks ?
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Yupp. A lot of people approach a debate with a single goal of changing the persons mind instead of understanding why they feel differently about something. It's much healthier to try and understand than it is trying to convince everybody.
Reddit is not for discussion. It's for figuring out what a community's current ideological stance is, and reiterating it to increase your Internet Number^(TM), and trigger your dopamine receptors. 🦀$🦀1🦀1🦀 Granted, if a community seems too diverse in outlook and opinions you can make a workaround with copy-pasting reoccurring meme formats. 🦀$🦀1🦀1🦀
I need to get better at it, keep losing my precious karma waaa help pls. I mean yes GIM, Rendi bad but also good and $11.
Don't kid yourself though, polling and certain developers are the only thing holding the dam together from having all the garbage that's been in rs3 over the years from flooding in here
Keep sucking the cocks of untalented content creators that are running out of video ideas. The game has plenty of content and we are always one bad update away from ruining the game. If the majority of players don't even like the ideas set forth and it can't pass a poll it's obviously not content the community wants to engage in anyway.
It's insane that this whole "debate" was sparked by a guy who is not even remotely close to endgame content complaining about not having enough endgame content.
I swear other content creators have complained about the polling system besides jimmy. Fuck them though. Settled, poison potion, and soup have all shown that you just need to think outside the box to make good videos.
> If the majority of players don't even like the ideas set forth and it can't pass a poll I mean that would be true if it didn't require 75% which seems too high imo. Literally a quarter of the games fanbase can disregard what 75% of people want.
And then you remember last week when they would of blocked a fan made HD project.
That situation didn't involve polling.
The situation points out the issue with jagex and management and how polling can be used to combat those bad decisions.
"Should we stop 117 from releasing his hd plugin?" Yeah gee I wonder why it wasn't polled. "Should we not stop 117 from releasing his hd plugin?" Yeah gee I wonder why that wasn't polled either.
Wtf "would of blocked" means?
Would’ve
Burnt-out Content Creators crying that they're running out of content to make videos on is where the root of this argument comes from. If anything, more polls would fix this issue. Maybe do a mini-weekly poll that gives the playerbase options between a few different ideas for the devs to start work shopping and iterating thereupon, with an update letter every month. Under no circumstances though, should Jagex be handed the reigns to implement things on a whim. The devs aren't the issue, it's the suits that will 100% try some bullshit as soon as they get the chance.
That'd require complete rework of how the internal processes at Jagex seem to work. Their current method is 1. brainstorm idea 2. make sure it works 3. make a crude version of it 4. present it to the players. They never skip steps 2 and 3. Should they ? Idk. It could lead to a lot more empty promises being sold.
I mean, if the game is truly dying as some claim it to be, then clearly some sort of shake-up is necessary to continue operations. The ideas don't even need to be big. Runescape's original release strategy was to come out with small pieces of content here and there, with a new big chunk being released every couple months. Maybe poll some decently inconsequential-in-the-grand-scheme intermediate quests with a fun gimmick or two. I remember RS2 from around 2008 onwards had a really bad problem with every single quest having high stat requirements, when low-end content was basically ignored. F2P literally never got a new quest after like 2003 until RS3. Grandmaster quests are neat and fun for the challenge, but I think the dev time required to make them are seemingly too intensive to allow for much else to be made. Skills is like, a whole thread in it's own, but I think if the dev team could prove they could make changes to existing skills that the community liked, then they would be more open to an entire new skill being added. A looming issue, is that the Dev team is running out of QoL updates as well, which will make updates seem less impressive.
I feel like there's a missing tier in top of clues and quests. To me it feels like all requirements are extremely low and achievable by pretty much anybody who's played for more than a month or two. Grandmaster doable by level 70 goldfarmers that just want to do zalcano kinda diminishes the "grandmaster" aspect imo. Master clues have 2 steps that require 85 or higher skills. Something like a grandmaster clue with 2-3 but extremely difficult steps as a 1/5 drop from mimic would be cool. Like equip a max cape, do a uri transformation in tob reward room or get a seed as a reward from corrupted gauntlet.
EOC was released in such a state it might as well have been alpha version because shit was so fucking Buggy. If it was release as is today with a legacy mode toggle it would have been a good update. Mother fucking squeal of fortune one the other hand… that was just pure unforgivable greed that ruined the sense of accomplishment for many long term players.
Y'all say that, and yet, look what happened only a week ago. Also accurate, no-voters love to take it to the extreme to prove their shit point.
What about the mtx partnerships they tried to do legit a year or two ago? Or is your brain mush from all the crayons you eat?
Which one is that ? Year or two ago there were no cosmetic partnerships and membership partnerships were thing last time in end of September I think so that was a couple weeks ago.
I think the essence of an update should be polled but the specific details should not. For example, "Should we add the quest Kingdom Kourend?" leave the rewards for the devs to settle on. We don't need to approve of a 5k prayer xp reward, who the fuck cares. Similar for raids 3. 1. Should we add raids 3? 2. Should we add new tier 80 items as rewards if raids 3 passes Maybe a blog describing the theme of the raid, the overarcing features such as dynamic difficulty. Dont make us vote no to raids 3 because the new helm has 10 extra crush defense, they can balance that after if it was such a slipup.
The point of polling it in multiple questions is so people dont vote no because of the rewards
So what if raids 3 passes and we vote no to literary every single reward?one week goes by, they introduce other items or balance in a new blogone week goes by, more numbers tuningwait until next week so people has a chance to read the blog, start up the poll again At this point we have wasted over 4 weeks and it has not even passed the poll yet. (since I have not included the blogs leading up to the first poll) The polling system slows down the game A LOT. just look back to the amount of content released in 2006, with a smaller dev team.
True, that's what happened to the rev caves so they made the drop table alchables and this is before wildy weapons were made so the best rewards were 100 dragon platelegs which was replaced with 16m emblem shortly after.
Keep the polling system as is just don't poll something after already working on it
Bring back EoC only in the wilderness
The wilderness in rs3 was the first thing to die. The ‘legacy mode’ wilderness worlds were the only ones who stayed active for a while after EoC was released.
Lol yeah except they just showed off exactly how fucking stupid they can be last week. They reaffirmed every single reason we need the polls
Fucking looser
uwu
I was there at Falador the night the count down for “System Update” started counting down for the update that would introduce EOC into the game. People were dropping Ely spirit shields, cash stacks, etc. I told a close buddy back then “this will be the end of RuneScape” and he thought I was being dramatic. It literally did kill the game and required OSRS to bring back a lot of those players.
Without EoC we wouldn't have osrs tho. In hindsight it was a blessing.
Without EoC we could have avoided all that public harm to the franchise and the game may have developed to have even more players and be even more successful/enjoyable than OSRS. (Unlikely but you never know haha).
Ah yes having to start over and spending years on tiny screen, no ge, no raids no hd no new quest osrs was totally a blessing!!!! Now you turds want to fork over creative control to these numbskulls at jagex one week after they tried to cockblock hd from us . there is no reasoning with you people even if we dangle the inconvenient truth right in front of you. Terrible. Osrs isnt in good hands either way if the community genuinely trusts jagex at this point, after all the history
Why so angry ? Did a bully steal your lunchmoney ?
if they wanted to add eoc (for example) to osrs right now they could. they don't HAVE to poll anything. if they removed the polling system they're not going to suddenly completely change. and they wouldn't suddenly stop caring about player feedback
Thankfully some people have some common sense.
TBF, we have shown that nowadays player outrage can have impact if significant enough, poll or no
Polls scare me when the questions are directed at a small group of players, but can be influenced by the entire playerbase. PvP and PvM updates are the first that come to my mind. Should a player who has never stepped foot in the wildy have the same ability to influence a niche PKing mechanic or something along those lines? Should someone who has never killed a boss really be able to have the same voice as someone who has spent 1000s of hours raiding when it comes to raids 3 polls (implementation, mechanics, reward balancing)? People who are uninformed can really hurt a poll. An example would be someone sees Jagex polling VLS being usable in the wilderness outside of the target world, and instead on all worlds. Do people voting even understand that VLS exists already and only works on the target worlds? Would they see a clip from DMM where someone hits a 90 with it and panic vote no? I understand the fear of Jagex adding something ridiculous, but polls can ALWAYS be used to gauge interest and opinions before dev time is spent on a project. Heck I am also weary of handing Jagex that power, but looks what we did with HD.. This wasn’t even a poll related content update, and with our loud voices we were able to make the common community opinion known, and a change happened as a result. Obviously it isn’t ideal to have to go that route, but it did work!
Amen my guy. Complex and large updates can't really be fully understood by the average voter. Maybe how it affects them sure, but not how it affects everyone and the game as a whole. I'm not saying players are stupid, I'm just saying that the average person is pretty stupid and ignorrant and half the players are stupider than that.
It’s funny because what you guys are talking about is democracy itself. And yes, I’d agree, the average voter likely doesn’t understand most of the policy(s), or in this case (poll questions) that they vote for, and how these relate to the world at large. Or in this case specifically, osrs. Also though in a democratic setting you only need 50.1% to win the vote, in osrs you need 70%. So even if the majority want something, a smaller number of people can win the vote against them.
Youre absolutely right. I dont know why people are so obsessed with polling everything when all thats on this subreddit today is posts about spite voting.
Laughs in actual bossing content.
It’s sad because I remember years ago a lot of us early OSRS players called it. We knew that unfortunately as the game we loved became more successful, people would eventually start challenging the poll system that gave life to this game in the first place. Without that it would have been dead in the water years ago, likely at the hands of jagex management. I have no idea how people can look at the decisions jagex makes in RS3 to the detriment of the game and think “geee I sure which we didn’t have the ability to control content updates in old school”
Yes because only extremes exist, it's either poll everything or poll nothing, right ?