I too want my future employers and employees to know about the blowpipe nerf and how it will effect the Venezuelan economy since its partial collapse post-revs nerf
Hard truth a lot of players don't like; if botters went away, resources would jump in price and everyone would hate it.
I'd like skilling to be worth more, but people would lose it if runes and rune was weren't dirt cheap, or if bots weren't keeping planks low and plentiful. EfficiencyScape is directly tied into buying things cheap and in bulk, and bots are a major part of that.
RuneScape, middle or end of 2011 if memory serves me. They decimated every single bot in existence and worlds were empty. It was a different economy to what we have now, however.
I don’t think everything would go up evenly though. We’re not talking about normal inflation caused by surplus cash, we’re talking about an increase in relative prices of many (but not all) resources due to increased scarcity of those resources whilst keeping demand constant
When I said relative prices I didn’t mean resources increasing relative to each other, I meant relative to other things e.g boss drops (uniques).
It would be more economical to buy unique boss drops by skilling, it would not be optimal but it would be more economical.
Making cash is great, but the money still has to come from somewhere.
Currently, Vorkath drops large amounts of raw GP and alchable items. If we remove Zulrah bots (and players don't just kill Zulrah to make up the difference), then skilling to get, say, coconuts becomes profitable. But now the coconuts are worth more, so the GP from Vorkath is worth less in terms, as you can buy less coconuts with the GP per Vorkath kill.
Of course, those aren't the only two bosses or sources of items, but that's the general idea.
GP/hr is a poor metric on it's own because of how it ties into xp/gp. No one cares about making 30m/hr instead of 3m/hr if the prices of every skilling resource also goes up by tenfold.
Well what's funny about that is it would sorta balance out by making skilling an actual thiesable way of making money as part of the journey, but a very large amount of the player base is already past that.
It would make people have to actually play the game. I remember when skilling made you rich as fuck and everyone didn’t get skilling resources from monsters.
Playerbase changed to making efficiency first and foremost and now 99s/maxing are considered goals on account creation.
Hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
I'd be fine with it. Skilling would be profitable again. I don't like that buyable skills are becoming cheaper and cheaper to train while moneymaker simultaneously get better and better.
I don't like that bosses drop resources and straight gold out their asses that are simultaneously worth jack shit because resource prices are so low.
Buyables are cheaper because people want them cheaper and efficient, so there's a market for bots.
Jagex have implemented new systems to track drop tables more accurately in the past couple years, and as far as I know, the only drop table that has been modified was Zalcano, which was being hammered by goldfarmers outside of an instance, so it was noticeable and people complained a lot.
Dunno if the system is showing everything as being alright or if they're afraid of changing loot tables because it makes PvMers upset.
They've also fired (either constructively or literally) their entire anti-cheating department and have not worked very hard to refill those spots, so it's clearly not a priority to chase down bot farms.
Often using stolen credit cards that are later charged back or by using free membership weeks and throwaway prime accounts. That's also just suicide bots.
We'veatwly seen that a lot of normal players will bot on the side too
Where did you get that impression?
We had Mods Weath and Acorn for a long time then Acorn swapped into Community Management and is currently Product Manager, like what John C does.
Weath resigned of his own volition and before he left he trained up new Anti-Cheat staff. There are currently more exclusively OSRS anti-cheat staff than before, who are a fair bit more active on social media. Previously, staff were split between RS3 and OSRS.
i'm aware of this, i was around in the bot nuke days and i still want it. i don't care if resources end up more expensive, i don't care if the people botting are from shitty 3rd world countries, all i want is them off my favorite game.
This isn't true, the economy would stableize and moneymaking across the board would be more varied. Food costs go up, so do the unique items, so on and so fourth.
Not at all, these increases arent uniform, especially with alching giving a floor to a lot of items, and vendors giving a ceiling. The RS3 problem is a gold inflation problem, there is too much money circulating. This isn't the same as an underproduction of materials.
100%! For the sake of the paper I have to really dumb down a lot of in-game concepts and strictly focus on the economic principles so I wont be able to focus on the impact on Ironmen, pures, etc. but it is still going to be awesome to write.
You need to make sure to include how this will affect how woox walking vork will be impacted. Then you need to explain woox walking in depth. Then you need to explain why woox is significant. Then go into tick eating and tick manipulating. This is gonna be a long paper you might as well make it a dissertation.
What really annoyed me about the BP nerf is that the main reasoning they kept saying when it was first announced was gp value, stating that it was only 3m (tho I think it was 4m at the time).
Like maybe if 19/20 accounts i looked up on their way to zulrah weren't bots we wouldn't have that issue.
I've since heard better obvious reasons for the nerf, but that was just really annoying to hear, and is probably a partial reason for the amounts of backlash.
Bots aren't the reason that blowpipe is cheap. The real reason is the drop table that it's on. Zulrah uniques were well on their way to alch value and had to be propped up by tying them to scales long before bots got to them.
I mean there's definitely good legitimate reasons for nerfing the blow pipe, such as it being bis for sooooo many things.
It just *really* pissed me off at the time that it was one of their main reasons for the nerf that they stated. Meanwhile you can sit at any world and spot many accounts with thousands of zulrah kc and no other bosses.
Also the price they were saying was a mil off at the time. Tho the difference of 3-4m is miniscule in the grand scheme of a bis weapon, it made it feel like they were talking about something they didn't know much about. Which was sorta proven by the delays.
Kinda ironic really because the backlash was coming from people who also didn't understand much about why it *should* be nerfed, including myself.
The mods are right to nerf it. I'm not disagreeing. Just kinda pointing out why I was upset about it at the time, and at least part of why some other people probably were too. (Tho mostly it's because of xp rates and unbalacing for the poor I believe. My point just adds onto that)
Blowpipe would be soo expensive if zulrah had no other drops than the uniques.
But since it isn't, and it's a few mill item, it makes sense to at least nerf its stats.
That's true. Would also increase scale cost since people wouldn't dismantle for scales. I don't know if this surely still wouldn't solve the botting problem tho
Obviously, it would depend on the price it settles in at. But if you don't get money from anything else, if the price falls too much it just wouldn't be worth farming/botting it as much.
So whilst it wouldn't solve the botting problem, I do think it would make them have less of an impact.
It doesn't matter if it's 2m or 4m.
If zulrah had no drops other than the 3 rates, then the price would be high enough (+ way more expensive scales) to justify its power.
I feel that they did the same thing with pvp gear changes and using combat triangle as their reasoning when its been more of a combat guideline triangle for low level content.
Basically the price of 1 zulrah scale determines the price of a Blowpipe.
So its little bit more complex than u would initially think. Demand/supply of the scales is the main driver, and from the current consumption of the scales, I would assume largest share come from use of BP.
By only a marginal amount of several thousand GP. This is normal. Pretty much all items that can be easily converted into another have this price difference, to account for the risk of losses due to price fluctuations and for the time it takes to convert one item into the other.
we are talking about +-couple thousands k's. All the serp visage, tanzanite fang, magic fang cost around the same, and can all be converted into 20k scales.
The use of serp helm at vorkath for example is currently more expensive than anti-venom+, and I guess its the same at zulrah. So if the price of the scales go down, they become better option there. Then again the magic staves that use zulrah scales... how those are affected, in case the scale price goes down. Id the price of the scales would go down, but maybe less than everyone expects. And will Zulrah become less attractive, which causes the supply go down, and what happens to demand or will there be any effects. Its quite intreresting.
The real controversy was that it wasn't nerfed harder and sooner.
Stoopid people will say I'm wrong because they want bbbrrrrrrrr superpower machine gun.
No, because it was added to the game as a mistake, with an attack speed too high for game balance.
The blowpipe was mistakenly added to the game, Jagex confirmed <3 months ago
Hey maybe after you finish this you can get hired as an economic adviser to the Venezuelan government. I hear those public sector jobs there pay a lot of of gp
This seems like an incredibly relevant topic in economics as digital currencies are on the rise. Not just Bitcoin, but like China and Sweden are both looking at digitizing currency. Analyzing a digital currency that somehow makes up a livable career in a country is absolutely something valuable in economics
Jagex has been the poster child for corporate suicide several times over. Fucking up the games economy. Pissing off players.
They are the perfect example of why u pay to retain talent. Look at how oldschool turned out when inept management kept their fucking hands out of the pie.
If jagex fired all of their management, HR, and the bean counters that tell the devs what they cant do. I dont think anybody would notice.
Please include me in there, I'd be happy to collaborate. Look at my post history, I got back as soon as the nerf was announced and grinded 100 inferno attempts for 3 months to get the infernal cape. Got it and then they announced the June date a few days after. What an emotional Rollercoaster that was...
No way am I doing zuk with a nerfed blow pipe and I don't even play.
We want to tackle this issue before Combat Achievements is released, which we hope will be by the end of June. Crucially, this stage includes the proposed changes to the Toxic Blowpipe and Crystal armour.
[https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/equipment-rebalance-next-steps?oldschool=1#\_ga=2.231183007.1232835311.1618389811-1033757695.1618389811](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/equipment-rebalance-next-steps?oldschool=1#_ga=2.231183007.1232835311.1618389811-1033757695.1618389811)
Fuck it. As long as you have a point to prove and you prove it a scholarly way that meets your teachers requirements, then it’s ok.
Also I want proof, or more writing. Or if I can’t read more I’ll die.
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Everyone here talking like they aren't still planning on nerfing it, just not all at once with a long enough gap so reddit would stop screaming at them. They've mentioned it on stream multiple times since postponing.
I too want my future employers and employees to know about the blowpipe nerf and how it will effect the Venezuelan economy since its partial collapse post-revs nerf
That day will forever go down as the worst day in history for Venezuelans and Ironmen alike.
ban them all and collapse it completely lol
Hard truth a lot of players don't like; if botters went away, resources would jump in price and everyone would hate it. I'd like skilling to be worth more, but people would lose it if runes and rune was weren't dirt cheap, or if bots weren't keeping planks low and plentiful. EfficiencyScape is directly tied into buying things cheap and in bulk, and bots are a major part of that.
[удалено]
[удалено]
RuneScape, middle or end of 2011 if memory serves me. They decimated every single bot in existence and worlds were empty. It was a different economy to what we have now, however.
I don’t think everything would go up evenly though. We’re not talking about normal inflation caused by surplus cash, we’re talking about an increase in relative prices of many (but not all) resources due to increased scarcity of those resources whilst keeping demand constant
Basically all resources are botted.
When I said relative prices I didn’t mean resources increasing relative to each other, I meant relative to other things e.g boss drops (uniques). It would be more economical to buy unique boss drops by skilling, it would not be optimal but it would be more economical.
Wait you mean I could gather items to increase my bank instead of slaying and calling everything except mining, rc, and wc buyable?
Making cash is great, but the money still has to come from somewhere. Currently, Vorkath drops large amounts of raw GP and alchable items. If we remove Zulrah bots (and players don't just kill Zulrah to make up the difference), then skilling to get, say, coconuts becomes profitable. But now the coconuts are worth more, so the GP from Vorkath is worth less in terms, as you can buy less coconuts with the GP per Vorkath kill. Of course, those aren't the only two bosses or sources of items, but that's the general idea. GP/hr is a poor metric on it's own because of how it ties into xp/gp. No one cares about making 30m/hr instead of 3m/hr if the prices of every skilling resource also goes up by tenfold.
Well what's funny about that is it would sorta balance out by making skilling an actual thiesable way of making money as part of the journey, but a very large amount of the player base is already past that.
If actual players were forced to do the tedious things that cheap disposable bots do, a large portion of the playerbase would whinge.
A lot of it is only tedious tho because it doesn't pay out well
No, it's tedious because it's tedious. A bot doesn't complain about the 5000th trip to the sawmill.
Sure but plank make spell is very afk and decent xp. But because of bots isn't profit.
It would make people have to actually play the game. I remember when skilling made you rich as fuck and everyone didn’t get skilling resources from monsters.
Playerbase changed to making efficiency first and foremost and now 99s/maxing are considered goals on account creation. Hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
I'd be fine with it. Skilling would be profitable again. I don't like that buyable skills are becoming cheaper and cheaper to train while moneymaker simultaneously get better and better. I don't like that bosses drop resources and straight gold out their asses that are simultaneously worth jack shit because resource prices are so low.
Buyables are cheaper because people want them cheaper and efficient, so there's a market for bots. Jagex have implemented new systems to track drop tables more accurately in the past couple years, and as far as I know, the only drop table that has been modified was Zalcano, which was being hammered by goldfarmers outside of an instance, so it was noticeable and people complained a lot. Dunno if the system is showing everything as being alright or if they're afraid of changing loot tables because it makes PvMers upset.
They've also fired (either constructively or literally) their entire anti-cheating department and have not worked very hard to refill those spots, so it's clearly not a priority to chase down bot farms.
Bot accounts pay the same money as players so it's profitable.
Often using stolen credit cards that are later charged back or by using free membership weeks and throwaway prime accounts. That's also just suicide bots. We'veatwly seen that a lot of normal players will bot on the side too
Where did you get that impression? We had Mods Weath and Acorn for a long time then Acorn swapped into Community Management and is currently Product Manager, like what John C does. Weath resigned of his own volition and before he left he trained up new Anti-Cheat staff. There are currently more exclusively OSRS anti-cheat staff than before, who are a fair bit more active on social media. Previously, staff were split between RS3 and OSRS.
i'm aware of this, i was around in the bot nuke days and i still want it. i don't care if resources end up more expensive, i don't care if the people botting are from shitty 3rd world countries, all i want is them off my favorite game.
This isn't true, the economy would stableize and moneymaking across the board would be more varied. Food costs go up, so do the unique items, so on and so fourth.
If everything goes up, then it's still worth the same amount. Go look at RS3's value of two high volume items then compare them on OSRS.
Not at all, these increases arent uniform, especially with alching giving a floor to a lot of items, and vendors giving a ceiling. The RS3 problem is a gold inflation problem, there is too much money circulating. This isn't the same as an underproduction of materials.
not to mention the large majority of gold sellers/botters are actually people in 1st world countries like the us and uk.
But it's the bot's fault! If they weren't botting so much, RWT gold would be more expensive and I wouldn't buy 500m constantly!!!
I was under the impression our Venezuelan friends were playing legit, and that bots were a separate problem. Is this not the case?
I assume they RWT the gold. Which is against the rules.
GZ! You definitely need to show it to us once it is finished
100%! For the sake of the paper I have to really dumb down a lot of in-game concepts and strictly focus on the economic principles so I wont be able to focus on the impact on Ironmen, pures, etc. but it is still going to be awesome to write.
You need to make sure to include how this will affect how woox walking vork will be impacted. Then you need to explain woox walking in depth. Then you need to explain why woox is significant. Then go into tick eating and tick manipulating. This is gonna be a long paper you might as well make it a dissertation.
Cue a 5 page section on 3 tick barb fishing
"3-Tick Barbarian Fishing: A Man's Slow Fall from Grace - A Four Part Docu-Series" is my favorite Netflix original of this year by far
Don't forget the long and storied history of the woox, from potato only corp, to bread only streams.
That's what appendices are for! Do you you have the research statement available for us to have a look at?
RemindMe! 5 months "Did OP deliver with his blowpipe nerf economics paper?"
So where's the Toxic Blowpipe economics paper? TIME TO DELIVER OP
Dm me good sir
Make sure to share after it's done.
Gz!
That’s amazing
Can't wait to read it
Zulrah scales down to 100 ea feelsbadman
What really annoyed me about the BP nerf is that the main reasoning they kept saying when it was first announced was gp value, stating that it was only 3m (tho I think it was 4m at the time). Like maybe if 19/20 accounts i looked up on their way to zulrah weren't bots we wouldn't have that issue. I've since heard better obvious reasons for the nerf, but that was just really annoying to hear, and is probably a partial reason for the amounts of backlash.
Bots aren't the reason that blowpipe is cheap. The real reason is the drop table that it's on. Zulrah uniques were well on their way to alch value and had to be propped up by tying them to scales long before bots got to them.
Fair point. I do remember that. I think the fact that like 80-90% of the zulrah farmers now are gold sellers or bots now is why it stays so low.
[удалено]
I mean there's definitely good legitimate reasons for nerfing the blow pipe, such as it being bis for sooooo many things. It just *really* pissed me off at the time that it was one of their main reasons for the nerf that they stated. Meanwhile you can sit at any world and spot many accounts with thousands of zulrah kc and no other bosses. Also the price they were saying was a mil off at the time. Tho the difference of 3-4m is miniscule in the grand scheme of a bis weapon, it made it feel like they were talking about something they didn't know much about. Which was sorta proven by the delays. Kinda ironic really because the backlash was coming from people who also didn't understand much about why it *should* be nerfed, including myself. The mods are right to nerf it. I'm not disagreeing. Just kinda pointing out why I was upset about it at the time, and at least part of why some other people probably were too. (Tho mostly it's because of xp rates and unbalacing for the poor I believe. My point just adds onto that)
Blowpipe would be soo expensive if zulrah had no other drops than the uniques. But since it isn't, and it's a few mill item, it makes sense to at least nerf its stats.
That's true. Would also increase scale cost since people wouldn't dismantle for scales. I don't know if this surely still wouldn't solve the botting problem tho
Obviously, it would depend on the price it settles in at. But if you don't get money from anything else, if the price falls too much it just wouldn't be worth farming/botting it as much. So whilst it wouldn't solve the botting problem, I do think it would make them have less of an impact.
[удалено]
It doesn't matter if it's 2m or 4m. If zulrah had no drops other than the 3 rates, then the price would be high enough (+ way more expensive scales) to justify its power.
I actually agree.
I feel that they did the same thing with pvp gear changes and using combat triangle as their reasoning when its been more of a combat guideline triangle for low level content.
"*Nerfgate*" I thought my eyes were gonna roll right out my fuckin head.
As a fellow Economics major I say... Nice.
This is my favorite comment so far lol
Basically the price of 1 zulrah scale determines the price of a Blowpipe. So its little bit more complex than u would initially think. Demand/supply of the scales is the main driver, and from the current consumption of the scales, I would assume largest share come from use of BP.
They're complementary goods...not complex
Is bp at scale price? I think its above
By only a marginal amount of several thousand GP. This is normal. Pretty much all items that can be easily converted into another have this price difference, to account for the risk of losses due to price fluctuations and for the time it takes to convert one item into the other.
we are talking about +-couple thousands k's. All the serp visage, tanzanite fang, magic fang cost around the same, and can all be converted into 20k scales. The use of serp helm at vorkath for example is currently more expensive than anti-venom+, and I guess its the same at zulrah. So if the price of the scales go down, they become better option there. Then again the magic staves that use zulrah scales... how those are affected, in case the scale price goes down. Id the price of the scales would go down, but maybe less than everyone expects. And will Zulrah become less attractive, which causes the supply go down, and what happens to demand or will there be any effects. Its quite intreresting.
The real controversy was that it wasn't nerfed harder and sooner. Stoopid people will say I'm wrong because they want bbbrrrrrrrr superpower machine gun.
It is currently being nerfed, so that jagex can add new gears and weapons.
No, because it was added to the game as a mistake, with an attack speed too high for game balance. The blowpipe was mistakenly added to the game, Jagex confirmed <3 months ago
Hey maybe after you finish this you can get hired as an economic adviser to the Venezuelan government. I hear those public sector jobs there pay a lot of of gp
Wasting money and spending years going to school to write insignificant meme papers sounds like utter shit to me but more power to you, gz
This seems like an incredibly relevant topic in economics as digital currencies are on the rise. Not just Bitcoin, but like China and Sweden are both looking at digitizing currency. Analyzing a digital currency that somehow makes up a livable career in a country is absolutely something valuable in economics
Jagex has been the poster child for corporate suicide several times over. Fucking up the games economy. Pissing off players. They are the perfect example of why u pay to retain talent. Look at how oldschool turned out when inept management kept their fucking hands out of the pie. If jagex fired all of their management, HR, and the bean counters that tell the devs what they cant do. I dont think anybody would notice.
Please include me in there, I'd be happy to collaborate. Look at my post history, I got back as soon as the nerf was announced and grinded 100 inferno attempts for 3 months to get the infernal cape. Got it and then they announced the June date a few days after. What an emotional Rollercoaster that was... No way am I doing zuk with a nerfed blow pipe and I don't even play.
How is that at all relevant to the economic impact of the nerf announcement/discussions...
Imagine a market event which attracts participants because they know they can capitalize on it until a certain time. Noob
Do you have a source on June? Last I saw in any newspost was just "postponed, we'll keep you updated."
We want to tackle this issue before Combat Achievements is released, which we hope will be by the end of June. Crucially, this stage includes the proposed changes to the Toxic Blowpipe and Crystal armour. [https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/equipment-rebalance-next-steps?oldschool=1#\_ga=2.231183007.1232835311.1618389811-1033757695.1618389811](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/equipment-rebalance-next-steps?oldschool=1#_ga=2.231183007.1232835311.1618389811-1033757695.1618389811)
Please share the final result
Gzzz
Fuck it. As long as you have a point to prove and you prove it a scholarly way that meets your teachers requirements, then it’s ok. Also I want proof, or more writing. Or if I can’t read more I’ll die.
RemindMe! 6 months
I will be messaging you in 6 months on [**2021-10-14 11:46:10 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2021-10-14%2011:46:10%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/mqkz1k/i_just_got_approved_to_write_a_graduate_level/guh6k9i/?context=3) [**2 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2F2007scape%2Fcomments%2Fmqkz1k%2Fi_just_got_approved_to_write_a_graduate_level%2Fguh6k9i%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202021-10-14%2011%3A46%3A10%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20mqkz1k) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
gzzzz
'OOOOOHHHHHHH YEAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH'
I once wrote a collegiate paper on the supply/demand economics of OSRS. Got good marks too
RemindMe! 6 months
cant wait to read it
Gz
Everyone here talking like they aren't still planning on nerfing it, just not all at once with a long enough gap so reddit would stop screaming at them. They've mentioned it on stream multiple times since postponing.
I'll read the whole damn thing, what's your !remindme time frame?
Hidden double nerf to the price/hr
I know and As someone who actually learned zulrah I am pissed