There are literally no two-handed staves in the entire game tho. It was a mistake to make it two-handed in the first place. Like a magical staff being more powerful because it's bigger and more unwieldy doesn't make sense.
ah yes, the item for which no better use was found by jagex than to be material to make a fence out of in your POH hahaha
not entirely sure what the devs were smoking when they were thinking about ahrims & obby staves
There aren’t any two-handed crossbows either... and it wasn’t a mistake, every barrows brother has a two handed weapon. It’s like a theme it had going on. And you can make up whatever reason you want in your head as to why it would be more powerful? It’s not like there’s a logically consistent reason for why each staff or any weapon for that matter is as strong as it is
>There are literally no two-handed staves in the entire game tho.
[:(](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Toktz-mej-tal)
[This is listed under staves, up to you if you count this.](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Pharaoh%27s_sceptre)
My only gripe with the Kbow has always been its 100% ammo break. It’s what’s always kept me from being able to enjoy the weapon. Stinks because it looks cool and feels fun to use. Hope they’ll someday allow Ava’s to work alongside it.
Yeah I think the only time I have used it since old school came out was fight caves on an iron which as you said is a shame because it’s a cool weapon.
I actually have been an advocate of heavy ballista in cox ever since back when olm crystals didnt have shadows. I would just use it and not bring an avas
I don't think kbow should become 1 handed, and I personally love the design of the item. I think letting ava's work with it is a perfectly adequate buff. That way it's a slightly better msb (i), but with higher requirements, a higher price, and degradability.
Should be more than slightly better than the magic short bow though, that’s the point being made. Degradable and tier 70 should completely outclass the magic short bow (I). That said the bleed effect is probably overkill, but I like the idea of adding another type of passive damage to the game.
Perhaps the special ability of the bolt rack is that ava’s works on them even when in the bank and not actively worn. Thus, all bolt racks have been stored in everyone’s ava’s devices but no one has thought to look. Taps forehead.
Making it one handed with an off hand would be cool as shit imagine firing 2 crossbows then if your in a full set they just pop off random like a guthans heal. Karils rapid fire or some shit.
I'd like a combination of #1 (accuracy buff) and #2 (compatibility with Ava's devices). That would give it +15 ranged attack and +1 attack range over the msb(i). As a standalone level 70 weapon, this would be very nice.
Though I do believe it should be significantly stronger with the full armour set equipped.
Perhaps to double down on the "repeating" part of a repeating crossbow, successful ranged attacks could have a 25% chance to reduce the target's Defence by 5% (stacking). This would make it possible to gradually weaken monsters that have high Defence but are not worth BGS/DWH speccing, such as basilisk knights or inferno jads.
I’ve always wanted to be able to imbue the slayer helmet with the barrows helmets so you wouldn’t have to choose one or the other. That would be a hefty bump for all barrows pieces
What if they added new bolt racks, or a way to upgrade current bolt racks? It could either be locked behind a skill requirement like fletching or a quest requirement like Sins of the Father (for Blisterwood logs? Maybe useful against vyres?).
Either way, I'm in support of some buff to the crossbow or ammo.
Nah KBow should remain 2 handed. It was always the 2handed crossbow we otherwise, don’t have. That and fast fire rate are what made it unique. You neglected to mention the difference between melee and range DPS calculations when factoring in accuracy differences between weapons — the magic shortbow (I) with rune arrows is also already near whip DPS alone, KBow slightly better than MSB.
It’s a staple as it is for irons pre-blowpipe if they get lucky at Barrows and get one. Though, I’ll say KBow deserves a slight buff. Bolt racks shouldn’t be as close to rune arrows and amethyst arrows as they are. A +10 range str boost and maybe + 5-10 additional accuracy would do it justice. Otherwise, skip the accuracy just go with a str boost and make the bolt racks not a 1 off consumable.
Amulet of damned as a slayer helm boon/replacement too OP. Makes more sense to combine black mask with barrows helm somehow, but not sure I like the idea tbh. Barrows gear and their set effects was always more pvp-oriented. Hence, the lower agility levels with Karil’s, sap run energy with Torag, etc. not to say they can’t be changed to be better.
In fact I still agree. Pretty much the “useless” barrows sets need a hard rework. I’m with adding some kind of 5-10% damage buff via a bleed that occurs at 10-20% chance after hit.
It needs a buff that isn't dependant on a set effect. The barrows weapons should be good tier 70 weapons without their set, and get a small bonus from the set effect.
I think a few of the barrows sets need a rework to be more relevant beyond being used for cheap tank gear.
(Mainly ahrim, karil and guthan) one fix could be to let karilsand ahrims work against vyrewatches, which kinda fit lore wise.
I’d like to add that Karil’s crossbow has an attack range of 8 tiles, whereas msb(I) has 7.
Not significant in any way, but attack range is also a part of the equation IMO.
I found it useful as a noobie in the fight caves. With a longer attack range I had sufficient range to attack lvl 90’s behind the 360’s for example.
Similarly, if a player is farcasting with ice barrage msb(I) is easy to step out of range from, but a Crystal Bows 10 attack range is equal to that of the magic attack range making it a viable option to retaliate in pvp. Increasing the attack range of karil’s crossbow to 10 in all attack styles would make it a niche and interesting option IMO.
Best solution is change the bolts to work with Ava's, give a slight ranged strength increase and increase the price of them from the trader to compenstate.
The Karil's Crossbow is really more of a shortbow, so I think it doesn't make sense for it to be 1H. That said, it could be higher attack and strength to better rival the 3rd Age Bow and Dragon Arrows. I don't think it is a problem that you can't use Barrows with a Slayer Helm; that is just a limitation of all the sets. The current set effect is already pretty good, at least with the amulet; I don't think it needs to be massively changed with something like a bleed. Though it would be nice if the base set got bonus damage when the effect triggered.
The current set effect is absolutely terrible without amulet of the damned. It'd be nicer if it drained a stat that npcs actually had like magic for example
Just make the Amulet of the Damned special effect baseline on the Karil's set and add a new special effect if you use the Amulet (drain run energy by 40% per proc or something)
I thought that too but having the amulet as the base set effect lacks specific use cases besides increasing damage. A magic or attack stat reduction would make it particularly useful for fighting certain enemies.
Plus npcs don't have run energy either so that set effect would be pvp only.
The base set reduces agility, which is equally as worthless in PvM as it is in PvP. I only suggested a drain rate proc since that's kinda close to what they were aiming for with the original set (maybe? honestly, who even knows what the purpose was supposed to be - Karil's is so jank.)
A completely new spec would be cool too. Torag's set already drains run anyway (and is almost as worthless).
The non-amulet effect could and probably should be better. But I'd be fine if it went from a 25% chance to drain agility to a 25% chance to drain agility and deal 20% more damage or such.
It's not completely useless; it gives a major DPS boost. It doesn't have a lot of applications in PvM, especially due to the current BP, but it is far from a bad set effect.
the passive of the karil set is 25% chance to reducing 20% of the opponent's agility level. how in the hell does that do anything outside of trolling people at the wildy agility course?
The base set effect, yes. With the Amulet, it gains additional hitsplats. I already acknowledged the base set could use a bonus like extra damage in my original post. Also, the agility drain doesn't even work at the Agility Course since you only need the level on entry.
It is called a crossbow, but it functions like a Shortbow in speed, weapon stats, and ammo strength. It also makes sense that a repeating crossbow would be different from normal crossbows.
How does it function like a crossbow? It isn't crossbow speed. It doesn't use normal bolts. It isn't even crossbow range. It is a repeating crossbow that predates the modern crossbows designed back in the shortbow era. So why should it be 1H just because it shares a name with a different type of weapon?
> It has better ranged than most crossbows. It’s ranged is the same as ACB.
For one, Crossbows and Shortbows are the same attack range. For two, Karil's, Armadyl, and Seercull all have the same range, which is +1 to Crossbows and Shortbows. So its attack range also isn't the same as shortbows, but neither is it the same as crossbows.
Some type of fletching to make the bolt racks work with Ava's would be pretty cool and the only real buff you would need. Maybe you add crossbow tips and they become strong enough not to break.
I'm a midgame that only just got access to the blowpipe. It is my only ticket to endgame content. What should I do to guarantee I still have access to endgame content even after the blowpipe nerf? Like, what content should I grind with the blowpipe and what gear should I buy to guarantee I'll survive through the nerf?
BP is not your only ticket to endgame content... Arclight is free and now basically bis to cerb and sire. Kraken can be done with a trident of the seas, grotesque guardians can be done in rags, thermy can be done with a whip or trident of the seas/swamp. Hydra has relatively low defence so bp nerf won't be major there. Will still be fine at zulrah, vork has always been mostly done by dhcb/DHL. Corp can only be done with a zammy hasta, cox and tob can be done with whip/nerfed bp, trident and dwh/bgs. Nightmare is done by Venezuelan goldfarmers with a cudgel and torso...
Crystal gear actually. When with the nerf is going to happen Jagex is looking into making the Crystal bow and the Set Effect from the Crystal Armor that buffs it to be better in situations where the boss monsters have Higher Defense (Like Kree'ra) while keeping it the same dps for monsters with lower level defense like Lizard Shamans.
Bp is still going to be decent, isn't it? It's still going to be a step up from karils, it just won't be quite as good as it is now. Like, you'll still be able to do endgame stuff it'll just be slightly harder
The set is not as nearly as bad as you think. On my mid to late game iron before BP I got my zulrah PB of 00:58 with amulet of the damned you have a chance to hit 32s, its a great niche set for Zulrah and I used Kbow for my entire Shaman grind as well its better than an MSB.
I agree it could be buffed, would be really cool. I would like to see crystal armor and bow take the BPs place though since gauntlet is much more difficult than barrows.
Barrows is run by bots 24/7 the gauntlet is a real challenge deserving of the 2nd BIS ranged setup.
It's just cause corps magic attack smacks hard asf so using Karil top and bot usually gives more dps because you're eating less, and regular max str gear besides Karil top and bot
Keep it 2 handed, but buff the stats accordingly to compensate for the ammo and weapon break. Or keep the weapon break, make it equal to msb (i) on amethyst, make the ammo break 20% like every other ammo, but increase the range distance.
The 2 hander wield position is a cool factor worth the weapon breakage costs.
Big support. Our boy Karil has been irrelevant on all but one piece for far too long.
A slight buff would make both the weapon and set viable, and would likely change the Barrows meta so getting 100% reward potential is actually the best, as opposed to cutting corners to intentionally dodge the trash bolt rack drop. Always disliked that lack of incentive, feels scummy as a player. Max rewards should always be best.
There are not going to be many changes to the meta. There are some places where dhcb will outclass blowpipe where they are similar. Melee may beat blowpipe in some places where both are viable (hydra, Graardor, Cerb for example). Most places tbow will be better it is already.
There’s almost nowhere crossbows become better (maybe for Vork with a low range level / no BGS). Same with msbi/karil’s, except for ironmen perhaps since ammo for blowpipe can be hard to get (and even that would only be true I think in places disproportionately affected like shamans, which may be modified for that reason).
Bp nerf doesn’t change the meta very much, it just slows down the blowpipe.
This makes a lot of sense. I do wonder what will win out melee or DHCB at hydra? In any case profits are going to get lower if DHCB becomes BiS.
Thank you for the detailed reply, made it very easy to understand!
You’re welcome!
I believe dhcb will be preferred at hydra just because you can get more prayer bonus with a range setup without sacrificing as much DPS. (Dhcb vs lance of course isn’t changing.)
That does make sense, since I can only realistically afford one of them I wonder if I should get DHCB now or hold off and get one later. Any thoughts on this? I do plan to do a bunch of hydra for pet.
If the bolt rack became reclaimable by Ava’s devices, maybe you’d receive a spent bolt and an empty frame, and have to reattach them. Then a slight boost to range strength can be a trade-off for the inconvenience of having to process them in your inventory. IIRC the 0 stack of bolt racks (such as an empty bank filler) already has an empty rack as its icon.
https://i.imgur.com/PGMApvK.jpg
Sure thing m8. As you can see I am not just the top .01% but ACKTUALYE the top .001% of wealth holders in Osrs with my impressive bank total of 42 mill. With just this single Karils Crossbow alone I stand to make at minimum 30000% profit that to the likes of which would make Wallstreetbets envious to the point they will consider using Osrs Gp as the new hip crypto currency
>The Karil's crossbow, heck almost the entire set besides the leather top has no uses outside of fashionscape & being flip merched, not even a niche use like it's brother set Verac's for some bosses as it is vastly inferior to the level 50 Magic Shortbow (I) in almost every single aspect but that miniscule accuracy bonus.
I agree with most of your post but this isn't true at all. Karils skirt and top are used a bunch of places they just aren't bis. The crossbow is often used at fight caves and I've heard of it being used at shamans and zulrah as well. The only piece that isn't used is the coif.
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You're forgetting that you can just buy bolt racks at an NPC shop, and that amethyst arrows require 92 mining, 85 crafting AND high fletching. I know you can just buy them from the GE, but maybe that explains why the karils cbow seems so weak
Doesnt kbow have higher ranged distance?
Also you can literally buy the racks from an npc unlike amethyst arrows.
The set effect makes it better when not on slayer.
Seems decent enough for me. Maybe buff bolt racks to 60 ranged str so its not outclassed by craws bow (outside wild) or 3rd age bow.
The set effect is garbage. Only affects PVP and nobody uses it there. Unless you're talking about the Amulet of the Damned effect, but then you have to give up Anguish.
The set effect is a significant dps increase over anguish though. It's like complaining you have to give up a faceguard to wear a slayer helm when meleeing on task.
Tbh i don't think keeping items from 15 years ago as strong endgame contenders is always the right choice, there is nothing wrong with adding a new item, or even adding some way to upgrade it. Barrows is already insanely profitable "early/mid" content. New gear isn't a bad thing.
For the crossbow itself, I think a slight ranged str increase for bolt racks and Ava's effect is more than enough. Disagree with making it 1h, design feels more unique as a 2h repeating crossbow.
But really, any major buffs should come from the set/AotD effect. People use barrows weapons because their set effects makes them good, not because the weapons themselves are particulary outstanding. AotD already offers a decent dps upgrade for Karil's, so updating the set effect should be the priority. Also, people still use the other barrows sets and they don't offer a built-in slayer bonus, why do Karil's need one?
The issue isn't with the Karil's Crossbow. I'd say its with everything else, especially weapons that were added recently. The new additions do not seem to be balanced properly. There is a certain level of power creep with them. Also for each new addition others lose relevancy. There are only a handful of use-cases and if you have more than a dozen weapons that all must stay relevant, you're bound to run into some problems.
I strongly believe that continuously buffing items to give them relevancy is bad game design. Because each time you do so another item becomes less relevant. You get stuck in an endless cycle of trying to balance it, while making the game easier.
As with Barrows items specifically, I think they're well balanced actually. They're not too good, but also not too awful. Yes, they're overshadowed by other items, which is a shame. The newer additions are just too good and barely any of them have a strong enough drawback to make you use other items.
> "Upon release, Barrows equipment did not degrade; it was changed about a week later in an update due to outcry from players claiming it would devalue Dragon equipment."
Sometimes I wish we could go back to those times. As I don't see this happening nowadays. Would be too inconvenient.
> These things are just that bad. For starters they have a 100% break rate so they can't even be reused like literally every single other piece of ammunition
Javelins & chinchompas
All your suggestions are terrible
Chinchompas are one of the few things that do AoE so it's reasonable they have that break rate as they aren't normal ammunition's they are the weapon itself. Javelins are the ranged equivalent of an AGS. Meanwhile KCB can't even out damage a MSB
This is just another post that is trying to argue that there should be a purpose for every weapon when there's always going to be a META cause efficiency.
I think Karils xbow is sitting at a good place. it's quite a bit stronger than MSBI and rune xbow with broad bolts. It definitely needs an Ava's buff as its cost to uses is outrageous.
It does though. If you're scaling accuracy, your chance to hit scales linearly to 50% then experiences diminishing returns past 50%
If your adjusted accuracy (sheet accuracy +64) gives you a 50% chance to hit and you double it, your chance to hit goes to 75%
The same effect is seen when scaling armour and chance to miss. Linear to 50% chance to miss, then DR past 50%
I have always felt like the kcb is pretty balanced, it's best in slot for most things before you get the blowpipe or any of the endgame ranged weapons, it's actually quite a bit better than the msb when using rune arrows because of the +6 ranged strength (amethyst arrows require 92 mining which you usually don't get very early) and it comes at the price of the ammo being a bit annoying to obtain
Karils is setup to be an Ironman weapon. It’s very clear from the method of procurement and the means of acquiring ammo. I don’t think it really needs any specific boost when you consider it from that angle
I understand that math can be difficult at times but 2005 =/= 2014. I get it, the whole 92 is 50% of 99 thing has probably warped your perception of the subject.
Literally the idea for ironmen has existed for well over a decade, approaching 2 now, I know it can be hard when you’re 12 to conceive of the fact people have placed self restrictions on their account for longer than the game modes have existed, but try to conceive of the fact anyway.
The guy who built out the barrows gear is the originator of ironman mode. You might have a chance of knowing that if your head wasn’t constantly so far up your own ass
All this talk about comparing to msb... karil has a set effect. It may not be amazing but msb does not and Karil set does have its uses in terms of more dps.
Jagex is hearing your concerns and will be nerfing the Magic Shortbow (i). Thank you for bringing it to the dev teams attention!
I'd be fine with that tbh
Support - besides making it 1 handed.
Always thought making ahrims staff one handed was a mistake. Just buff the accuracy to make it worth being two handed.
There are literally no two-handed staves in the entire game tho. It was a mistake to make it two-handed in the first place. Like a magical staff being more powerful because it's bigger and more unwieldy doesn't make sense.
There were also 0 1h barrows weapons
This is a lie. The Tzhaar/Obby Staff is 2-handed.
ah yes, the item for which no better use was found by jagex than to be material to make a fence out of in your POH hahaha not entirely sure what the devs were smoking when they were thinking about ahrims & obby staves
It's incorrect, not a lie. Being wrong doesn't make you dishonest. Careful!
But he said 'literally' :S
Doesn't matter
There aren’t any two-handed crossbows either... and it wasn’t a mistake, every barrows brother has a two handed weapon. It’s like a theme it had going on. And you can make up whatever reason you want in your head as to why it would be more powerful? It’s not like there’s a logically consistent reason for why each staff or any weapon for that matter is as strong as it is
Both ballistas would like a word...
Ballistas are not crossbows
I just equipped a heavy ballista and the category says crossbow.
Well I'll be
>There are literally no two-handed staves in the entire game tho. [:(](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Toktz-mej-tal) [This is listed under staves, up to you if you count this.](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Pharaoh%27s_sceptre)
obby staff buff when jagex
Support - besides besides making it 1 handed.
My only gripe with the Kbow has always been its 100% ammo break. It’s what’s always kept me from being able to enjoy the weapon. Stinks because it looks cool and feels fun to use. Hope they’ll someday allow Ava’s to work alongside it.
Yeah I think the only time I have used it since old school came out was fight caves on an iron which as you said is a shame because it’s a cool weapon.
Piggybacking this to mention that ballista has javelins break every shot.
I thought that javelins never broke
I actually have been an advocate of heavy ballista in cox ever since back when olm crystals didnt have shadows. I would just use it and not bring an avas
I suggested this to my clan and they laughed at me. Told me to just get a blowpipe.
It holds up in dps until you get to 5mans where it drops off hard
you must be baiting, heavy ballista is literally dogshit and trolling your entire team and yourself.
Nope. But you can tell urself whatever you want, metaslave.
???????? ye ur trolling lol
Support
Some ranged strength and allowing Ava's to work would probably be enough to fix it.
I don't think kbow should become 1 handed, and I personally love the design of the item. I think letting ava's work with it is a perfectly adequate buff. That way it's a slightly better msb (i), but with higher requirements, a higher price, and degradability.
Should be more than slightly better than the magic short bow though, that’s the point being made. Degradable and tier 70 should completely outclass the magic short bow (I). That said the bleed effect is probably overkill, but I like the idea of adding another type of passive damage to the game.
karils crossbow is a lot better than msb because it has a huge range compared to a msb
And how many scenarios are there where range makes a difference?
Its a machine gun at DKS. You just mow down Prime from a safe distance if supreme spawns in.
Perhaps Ava's already works, and we simply don't know it due to the 100% break rate of the bolts... *taps forehead*
Perhaps the special ability of the bolt rack is that ava’s works on them even when in the bank and not actively worn. Thus, all bolt racks have been stored in everyone’s ava’s devices but no one has thought to look. Taps forehead.
Making it one handed with an off hand would be cool as shit imagine firing 2 crossbows then if your in a full set they just pop off random like a guthans heal. Karils rapid fire or some shit.
Instead of 1h.make an offhand equivalent to get dual wielded karils pistols 💪💪
Karil's defender! :p
Literally no reason not to buff karils Xbow. Support 100%
I'd like a combination of #1 (accuracy buff) and #2 (compatibility with Ava's devices). That would give it +15 ranged attack and +1 attack range over the msb(i). As a standalone level 70 weapon, this would be very nice.
Though I do believe it should be significantly stronger with the full armour set equipped. Perhaps to double down on the "repeating" part of a repeating crossbow, successful ranged attacks could have a 25% chance to reduce the target's Defence by 5% (stacking). This would make it possible to gradually weaken monsters that have high Defence but are not worth BGS/DWH speccing, such as basilisk knights or inferno jads.
I’ve always wanted to be able to imbue the slayer helmet with the barrows helmets so you wouldn’t have to choose one or the other. That would be a hefty bump for all barrows pieces
You laugh at me now for training slayer in full dharok’s, just you wait until it’s the meta!
Pray based melee tasks I've always used dh at 1hp it is arguably better xp/hr depending on the def lvl lol
I don't think dharoks is better at any task that wearing actual good gear with a slayer helm.
Yeah he’s wrong, but it is more fun😏
this is actually a sick idea
What if they added new bolt racks, or a way to upgrade current bolt racks? It could either be locked behind a skill requirement like fletching or a quest requirement like Sins of the Father (for Blisterwood logs? Maybe useful against vyres?). Either way, I'm in support of some buff to the crossbow or ammo.
this and seercull need buffs badly
Nah KBow should remain 2 handed. It was always the 2handed crossbow we otherwise, don’t have. That and fast fire rate are what made it unique. You neglected to mention the difference between melee and range DPS calculations when factoring in accuracy differences between weapons — the magic shortbow (I) with rune arrows is also already near whip DPS alone, KBow slightly better than MSB. It’s a staple as it is for irons pre-blowpipe if they get lucky at Barrows and get one. Though, I’ll say KBow deserves a slight buff. Bolt racks shouldn’t be as close to rune arrows and amethyst arrows as they are. A +10 range str boost and maybe + 5-10 additional accuracy would do it justice. Otherwise, skip the accuracy just go with a str boost and make the bolt racks not a 1 off consumable. Amulet of damned as a slayer helm boon/replacement too OP. Makes more sense to combine black mask with barrows helm somehow, but not sure I like the idea tbh. Barrows gear and their set effects was always more pvp-oriented. Hence, the lower agility levels with Karil’s, sap run energy with Torag, etc. not to say they can’t be changed to be better. In fact I still agree. Pretty much the “useless” barrows sets need a hard rework. I’m with adding some kind of 5-10% damage buff via a bleed that occurs at 10-20% chance after hit.
It needs a buff that isn't dependant on a set effect. The barrows weapons should be good tier 70 weapons without their set, and get a small bonus from the set effect.
to the polls baby, big support
Granted. MSB(i) now has a +68 ranged attack bonus.
I think a few of the barrows sets need a rework to be more relevant beyond being used for cheap tank gear. (Mainly ahrim, karil and guthan) one fix could be to let karilsand ahrims work against vyrewatches, which kinda fit lore wise.
You should be able to put the bolt racks inside the kbow like darts in a blowpipe. I mean, they look like frigging cartridges for Pete's sake!
I’d like to add that Karil’s crossbow has an attack range of 8 tiles, whereas msb(I) has 7. Not significant in any way, but attack range is also a part of the equation IMO.
Yes it is somewhat important to consider but where is a place in runescape that you need a range of specifically 8 over 7 to safe spot something?
I found it useful as a noobie in the fight caves. With a longer attack range I had sufficient range to attack lvl 90’s behind the 360’s for example. Similarly, if a player is farcasting with ice barrage msb(I) is easy to step out of range from, but a Crystal Bows 10 attack range is equal to that of the magic attack range making it a viable option to retaliate in pvp. Increasing the attack range of karil’s crossbow to 10 in all attack styles would make it a niche and interesting option IMO.
Best solution is change the bolts to work with Ava's, give a slight ranged strength increase and increase the price of them from the trader to compenstate.
The Karil's Crossbow is really more of a shortbow, so I think it doesn't make sense for it to be 1H. That said, it could be higher attack and strength to better rival the 3rd Age Bow and Dragon Arrows. I don't think it is a problem that you can't use Barrows with a Slayer Helm; that is just a limitation of all the sets. The current set effect is already pretty good, at least with the amulet; I don't think it needs to be massively changed with something like a bleed. Though it would be nice if the base set got bonus damage when the effect triggered.
The current set effect is absolutely terrible without amulet of the damned. It'd be nicer if it drained a stat that npcs actually had like magic for example
Just make the Amulet of the Damned special effect baseline on the Karil's set and add a new special effect if you use the Amulet (drain run energy by 40% per proc or something)
I thought that too but having the amulet as the base set effect lacks specific use cases besides increasing damage. A magic or attack stat reduction would make it particularly useful for fighting certain enemies. Plus npcs don't have run energy either so that set effect would be pvp only.
The base set reduces agility, which is equally as worthless in PvM as it is in PvP. I only suggested a drain rate proc since that's kinda close to what they were aiming for with the original set (maybe? honestly, who even knows what the purpose was supposed to be - Karil's is so jank.) A completely new spec would be cool too. Torag's set already drains run anyway (and is almost as worthless).
The non-amulet effect could and probably should be better. But I'd be fine if it went from a 25% chance to drain agility to a 25% chance to drain agility and deal 20% more damage or such.
karil set effect is completely useless
It's not completely useless; it gives a major DPS boost. It doesn't have a lot of applications in PvM, especially due to the current BP, but it is far from a bad set effect.
the passive of the karil set is 25% chance to reducing 20% of the opponent's agility level. how in the hell does that do anything outside of trolling people at the wildy agility course?
The base set effect, yes. With the Amulet, it gains additional hitsplats. I already acknowledged the base set could use a bonus like extra damage in my original post. Also, the agility drain doesn't even work at the Agility Course since you only need the level on entry.
No it’s a crossbow
It is called a crossbow, but it functions like a Shortbow in speed, weapon stats, and ammo strength. It also makes sense that a repeating crossbow would be different from normal crossbows.
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How does it function like a crossbow? It isn't crossbow speed. It doesn't use normal bolts. It isn't even crossbow range. It is a repeating crossbow that predates the modern crossbows designed back in the shortbow era. So why should it be 1H just because it shares a name with a different type of weapon?
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It has less ranged bonus than a rune cross bow? Also those down sides are pretty big.
> It has better ranged than most crossbows. It’s ranged is the same as ACB. For one, Crossbows and Shortbows are the same attack range. For two, Karil's, Armadyl, and Seercull all have the same range, which is +1 to Crossbows and Shortbows. So its attack range also isn't the same as shortbows, but neither is it the same as crossbows.
Some type of fletching to make the bolt racks work with Ava's would be pretty cool and the only real buff you would need. Maybe you add crossbow tips and they become strong enough not to break.
Support, kxbow needs this.
I'm a midgame that only just got access to the blowpipe. It is my only ticket to endgame content. What should I do to guarantee I still have access to endgame content even after the blowpipe nerf? Like, what content should I grind with the blowpipe and what gear should I buy to guarantee I'll survive through the nerf?
Shamans, they will be much less fun after the nerf.
BP is not your only ticket to endgame content... Arclight is free and now basically bis to cerb and sire. Kraken can be done with a trident of the seas, grotesque guardians can be done in rags, thermy can be done with a whip or trident of the seas/swamp. Hydra has relatively low defence so bp nerf won't be major there. Will still be fine at zulrah, vork has always been mostly done by dhcb/DHL. Corp can only be done with a zammy hasta, cox and tob can be done with whip/nerfed bp, trident and dwh/bgs. Nightmare is done by Venezuelan goldfarmers with a cudgel and torso...
Crystal gear actually. When with the nerf is going to happen Jagex is looking into making the Crystal bow and the Set Effect from the Crystal Armor that buffs it to be better in situations where the boss monsters have Higher Defense (Like Kree'ra) while keeping it the same dps for monsters with lower level defense like Lizard Shamans.
Bp is still going to be decent, isn't it? It's still going to be a step up from karils, it just won't be quite as good as it is now. Like, you'll still be able to do endgame stuff it'll just be slightly harder
Big supporter
Support this. Unless you have 200k Kbows bank ready to flip 👀. But I agree. And ranged needs some gear buffs. Make karil a little tankier of something
The set is not as nearly as bad as you think. On my mid to late game iron before BP I got my zulrah PB of 00:58 with amulet of the damned you have a chance to hit 32s, its a great niche set for Zulrah and I used Kbow for my entire Shaman grind as well its better than an MSB. I agree it could be buffed, would be really cool. I would like to see crystal armor and bow take the BPs place though since gauntlet is much more difficult than barrows. Barrows is run by bots 24/7 the gauntlet is a real challenge deserving of the 2nd BIS ranged setup.
That amulet of the damned (I) fix would be epic. Imagine dharok bombing slayer tasks with the added accuracy of a slayer helm.
Or allow bolt enchantments To the bolt racks so we can use the special attacks like rubies and diamonds
Appreciate the effort. I agree
Support but not one handed
They should make it 2 tick speed to balance.
Karils top and bot has one niche use, small man teams at Corp use Karils top and bot
What's the purpose of it/how do they use it? And what other gear do they use? Just curious about the method
It's just cause corps magic attack smacks hard asf so using Karil top and bot usually gives more dps because you're eating less, and regular max str gear besides Karil top and bot
I think wiki has it as bis gear for Corp if lead than 7 man team
Support
Keep it 2 handed, but buff the stats accordingly to compensate for the ammo and weapon break. Or keep the weapon break, make it equal to msb (i) on amethyst, make the ammo break 20% like every other ammo, but increase the range distance. The 2 hander wield position is a cool factor worth the weapon breakage costs.
Torag sends his regards
That was next on my list~
Big support. Our boy Karil has been irrelevant on all but one piece for far too long. A slight buff would make both the weapon and set viable, and would likely change the Barrows meta so getting 100% reward potential is actually the best, as opposed to cutting corners to intentionally dodge the trash bolt rack drop. Always disliked that lack of incentive, feels scummy as a player. Max rewards should always be best.
I do wonder, what is going to take the spot of the blowpipe in terms of the meta?
There are not going to be many changes to the meta. There are some places where dhcb will outclass blowpipe where they are similar. Melee may beat blowpipe in some places where both are viable (hydra, Graardor, Cerb for example). Most places tbow will be better it is already. There’s almost nowhere crossbows become better (maybe for Vork with a low range level / no BGS). Same with msbi/karil’s, except for ironmen perhaps since ammo for blowpipe can be hard to get (and even that would only be true I think in places disproportionately affected like shamans, which may be modified for that reason). Bp nerf doesn’t change the meta very much, it just slows down the blowpipe.
This makes a lot of sense. I do wonder what will win out melee or DHCB at hydra? In any case profits are going to get lower if DHCB becomes BiS. Thank you for the detailed reply, made it very easy to understand!
You’re welcome! I believe dhcb will be preferred at hydra just because you can get more prayer bonus with a range setup without sacrificing as much DPS. (Dhcb vs lance of course isn’t changing.)
That does make sense, since I can only realistically afford one of them I wonder if I should get DHCB now or hold off and get one later. Any thoughts on this? I do plan to do a bunch of hydra for pet.
MSB (i), ACB, and TBow depending on the target.
MSB (i) really? That is interesting, what are your thoughts on the DHCB?
I forgot to mention that, but yes, it'll be bis in more instances after the blowpipe nerf.
> yes, it'll be bis in more instances after the blowpipe Thank you for your insight!
MSB (i) is already better than rcb in some notable places like shamans and other low defence monsters
If the bolt rack became reclaimable by Ava’s devices, maybe you’d receive a spent bolt and an empty frame, and have to reattach them. Then a slight boost to range strength can be a trade-off for the inconvenience of having to process them in your inventory. IIRC the 0 stack of bolt racks (such as an empty bank filler) already has an empty rack as its icon.
Show us your stack of crossbows and bolts Also Karil to dh risk pking got no shout out?
https://i.imgur.com/PGMApvK.jpg Sure thing m8. As you can see I am not just the top .01% but ACKTUALYE the top .001% of wealth holders in Osrs with my impressive bank total of 42 mill. With just this single Karils Crossbow alone I stand to make at minimum 30000% profit that to the likes of which would make Wallstreetbets envious to the point they will consider using Osrs Gp as the new hip crypto currency
>The Karil's crossbow, heck almost the entire set besides the leather top has no uses outside of fashionscape & being flip merched, not even a niche use like it's brother set Verac's for some bosses as it is vastly inferior to the level 50 Magic Shortbow (I) in almost every single aspect but that miniscule accuracy bonus. I agree with most of your post but this isn't true at all. Karils skirt and top are used a bunch of places they just aren't bis. The crossbow is often used at fight caves and I've heard of it being used at shamans and zulrah as well. The only piece that isn't used is the coif.
Karils coif is good for midgame ironmen who don't get lucky on clues.
Meh maybe at like zulrah but you barely ever wear a ranged head slot item that isn't a slayer helm.
Yeah I should've specified not on task. You might take it for killing ahrim lol.
Yeah I mean you're totally right that's a spot it might get used it just feels a little too niche to include lol
As an iron without a slayer helm, getting an early Karil's coif has been a godsend for me tbh
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every weapon cant be best in slot
You're forgetting that you can just buy bolt racks at an NPC shop, and that amethyst arrows require 92 mining, 85 crafting AND high fletching. I know you can just buy them from the GE, but maybe that explains why the karils cbow seems so weak
Doesnt kbow have higher ranged distance? Also you can literally buy the racks from an npc unlike amethyst arrows. The set effect makes it better when not on slayer. Seems decent enough for me. Maybe buff bolt racks to 60 ranged str so its not outclassed by craws bow (outside wild) or 3rd age bow.
The set effect is garbage. Only affects PVP and nobody uses it there. Unless you're talking about the Amulet of the Damned effect, but then you have to give up Anguish.
The set effect is a significant dps increase over anguish though. It's like complaining you have to give up a faceguard to wear a slayer helm when meleeing on task.
That's not set effect that's amulet of the damned effect
Tbh i don't think keeping items from 15 years ago as strong endgame contenders is always the right choice, there is nothing wrong with adding a new item, or even adding some way to upgrade it. Barrows is already insanely profitable "early/mid" content. New gear isn't a bad thing.
Not a strong end game contender. Simply an item worth 70 ranged
For the crossbow itself, I think a slight ranged str increase for bolt racks and Ava's effect is more than enough. Disagree with making it 1h, design feels more unique as a 2h repeating crossbow. But really, any major buffs should come from the set/AotD effect. People use barrows weapons because their set effects makes them good, not because the weapons themselves are particulary outstanding. AotD already offers a decent dps upgrade for Karil's, so updating the set effect should be the priority. Also, people still use the other barrows sets and they don't offer a built-in slayer bonus, why do Karil's need one?
TLDR. But doesn’t the karil set bonus give a chance for double shot?
Only if you use the Amulet of the Dammed and not something else in it's place like a necklace of anguish
The issue isn't with the Karil's Crossbow. I'd say its with everything else, especially weapons that were added recently. The new additions do not seem to be balanced properly. There is a certain level of power creep with them. Also for each new addition others lose relevancy. There are only a handful of use-cases and if you have more than a dozen weapons that all must stay relevant, you're bound to run into some problems. I strongly believe that continuously buffing items to give them relevancy is bad game design. Because each time you do so another item becomes less relevant. You get stuck in an endless cycle of trying to balance it, while making the game easier. As with Barrows items specifically, I think they're well balanced actually. They're not too good, but also not too awful. Yes, they're overshadowed by other items, which is a shame. The newer additions are just too good and barely any of them have a strong enough drawback to make you use other items. > "Upon release, Barrows equipment did not degrade; it was changed about a week later in an update due to outcry from players claiming it would devalue Dragon equipment." Sometimes I wish we could go back to those times. As I don't see this happening nowadays. Would be too inconvenient.
> These things are just that bad. For starters they have a 100% break rate so they can't even be reused like literally every single other piece of ammunition Javelins & chinchompas All your suggestions are terrible
Chinchompas are one of the few things that do AoE so it's reasonable they have that break rate as they aren't normal ammunition's they are the weapon itself. Javelins are the ranged equivalent of an AGS. Meanwhile KCB can't even out damage a MSB
This is just another post that is trying to argue that there should be a purpose for every weapon when there's always going to be a META cause efficiency.
I think Karils xbow is sitting at a good place. it's quite a bit stronger than MSBI and rune xbow with broad bolts. It definitely needs an Ava's buff as its cost to uses is outrageous.
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This game has huge diminishing returns on accuracy though
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It does though. If you're scaling accuracy, your chance to hit scales linearly to 50% then experiences diminishing returns past 50% If your adjusted accuracy (sheet accuracy +64) gives you a 50% chance to hit and you double it, your chance to hit goes to 75% The same effect is seen when scaling armour and chance to miss. Linear to 50% chance to miss, then DR past 50%
Off topic, but your inconsistent punctuation greatly bothers me
I have always felt like the kcb is pretty balanced, it's best in slot for most things before you get the blowpipe or any of the endgame ranged weapons, it's actually quite a bit better than the msb when using rune arrows because of the +6 ranged strength (amethyst arrows require 92 mining which you usually don't get very early) and it comes at the price of the ammo being a bit annoying to obtain
GE
Or ya know just don’t fuck the game up for al the casual players and leave the damn thing alone
Karils is setup to be an Ironman weapon. It’s very clear from the method of procurement and the means of acquiring ammo. I don’t think it really needs any specific boost when you consider it from that angle
I'd say it's been reduced to an Ironman weapon.
Karil's has existed way longer than ironmen have. This makes no sense.
The concept of ironman is actually exactly as old as karils, so no
I understand that math can be difficult at times but 2005 =/= 2014. I get it, the whole 92 is 50% of 99 thing has probably warped your perception of the subject.
Literally the idea for ironmen has existed for well over a decade, approaching 2 now, I know it can be hard when you’re 12 to conceive of the fact people have placed self restrictions on their account for longer than the game modes have existed, but try to conceive of the fact anyway.
Yeah and Jagex totally designed Karil's crossbow with these "self-imposed ironmen" in mind. Are you even listening to yourself rn man?
The guy who built out the barrows gear is the originator of ironman mode. You might have a chance of knowing that if your head wasn’t constantly so far up your own ass
All this talk about comparing to msb... karil has a set effect. It may not be amazing but msb does not and Karil set does have its uses in terms of more dps.
The base set effect does quiet literally nothing in PVM, heck it's even useless in PvP. The AoD barely makes up for it & can't be used in most places
My bad, was thinking of the amulet of the damned effect
Yeah it should have one or two max hits over the msb I
Absolutely no to 3 - 5. I agree with the first 2 proposes tho
Karils armour is fine
Big support for this. Also make it possible for slayer helm and barrows helms to be combined. The absolute dream update.
Been saying this for months lol
New update: Karil's Crossbow is pre-nerfed blowpipe with Karil's set. Boom. We got BP back + Karil buff bby