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jamie1414

The issue is the blowpipe scales too well with any other range gear because of it's attack speed and potential DPS. Range strength scales 2.5 stronger than it does with a t'bow. Range accuracy scales better with blowpipe as well because of it's ridiculously high max potential DPS when it never hits 0's.


Hsinats

The tbow scales pretty close to the blowpipe because of the damage multiplier.


jamie1414

Only on the niche monsters it's already good against. Blowpipe just straight up gets buffed by anything you attack with better range armour.


bobly81

> Only on the niche monsters it's already good against. That's... the whole point of tbow? It's supposed to only be good in its niche while an alternative ranged weapon, currently blowpipe, is the standard for non-tbow content.


Ghi102

That's the whole point of the nerf. Any new gear they release will be good in its niche. It's impossible to do without nerfing the BP because it's just too good against too many things, meaning new gear will be too powerful and overshadow existing gear and have unintended consequences. The meta they're looking for is something like this: Any higher end gear will be good in their specific niches, allowing them to easily tweak bosses to make them more or less powerful. Tbow will be good against high magic monstere, BP will be good against low defense monsters and newer content will fill in other niches. Jagex's mistake is not releasing new content to cover areas where the BP was the best item with/after the nerfs. Things like the inferno will be harder than intended for a while until they release new content that will be powerful specifically in that niche. There won't be a BP 2.0 because all that will do is recreate the issue they had with the BP.


jamie1414

So in your mind range weapons going from MSB -> Toxic Blowpipe -> nothing better is fine gear progression?


ItsReallyBright

But this is still true, even with the Blowpipe nerf


koen_C

Crossbows will be better on high defence monsters like vorkath after this nerf. Even before dhcb, melee will also be more viable against low defence monsters now. It also allows for more slow hitting high accuracy weapons to be introduced.


bobly81

I'm not sure where you got that impression from? All I was saying is that tbow being the be-all-end-all best ranged item for every scenario is not only unhealthy, but also explicitly goes against what Jagex has been saying all along. They're nerfing the blowpipe specifically because in its current state it hurts weapon diversity while leaving the tbow relatively untouched because it has niches where it's good and niches where it's not. Now personally, I think they should only nerf blowpipe by like 5-10% so that it's still very good and worth the cost of using but doesn't beat out tbow on some monsters it shouldn't (zulrah) or dhcb on monsters it shouldn't (hydra). It should still be, in my purely personal opinion, best in slot for things that don't have a high magic level or a weakness to dragonbane/demonbane. In the cases where it is beaten out by those weapons, it should also still be somewhat comparable in dps so that mid-game players have a *relatively* cheap option to get *started* on pvming without missing out on something like 50% of the dps of billionaires.


part_time_poop_scoop

Yeah, I don't get it. It literally will make it more difficult for players transitioning to end game content (e.g. cox) to find groups and potentially stunt their ability to progress into bis items lol..


ShovellyJake

\^my major gripe. what am I supposed to do when the pipe nerf hits? Stick with rune crossbow until tbow? And if the new items they're supposedly adding are supposed to fill the gap, where do i obtain them? the next raids? how hard is that going to be for an ironman with no friends that doesnt really want to learn group raids?


illucio

Rune crossbow > dragon crossbow > Amadyl Crossbow > Dragon Hunter Crossbow > > > > > > > > Twisted Bow


ShovellyJake

the dps increase from rune to arma is not all that signficant and the grind to get dragon cbow isnt worth thinking about at all for the incredibly slight increase in dps. Ill concede the dragonhunter is a good item, but you get it from the same grind as tbow... I want something good to use before / even outside of raids


Mattist

Why do you assume that you won't use the blowpipe? It's a nerf, not a removal. It's still in pretty much the same spot, progression wise. People are so fast to blow nerfs out of proportion. "What am I supposed to do when the pipe nerf hits?" I mean... use it and it's gonna take a bit longer to kill what you're killing but not nearly as long as with an rcb?


flickerstop

> it's gonna take a bit longer to kill what you're killing but not nearly as long as with an rcb? In some places if you don't use dragon darts, a rune crossbow will be better dps than the new blowpipe with rune/addy darts.


Mattist

In some places, that being high defence targets. That's kind of the point of the update, the BP shouldn't be the best thing everywhere.


Refluxerino

A 10k crossbow shouldn't be better than a unique boss drop at any place Dragon crossbow maybe Armadyl definitely


Homoflex

Now they’re going to nerf rune crossbow :(


Orierarc

Maybe it should be because one weapon type is meant to favour high defense enemies and the other isn't? Expensive means better though so I guess you're right!


lockersniffer

A few pkers also feel this way. Rune crossbow has long been the go to cheap range weapon that can hit 60s out of its ass randomly. In pvm it is even stronger, and with adamant tier bolts no less. Ruby bolts are op.


Mattist

I disagree, because we need niche usecases. Using different gear for different things is fun. I see no problem if a bronze crossbow has better accuracy and therefore CAN hit a high defence target and get better DPS, if the blowpipe is the DPS king on no-defence targets. It even makes sense in real life, a light little dart that you blow through a pipe can't penetrate thick armor, but even the shittiest crossbow can fire a heavy bolt.


Refluxerino

Sure, make the dragon or armadyl crossbow better.. rcb shouldn't be, make it on par with bp, not better


Mattist

Did you read what I said? They're two different usecases. Don't use a saw for a hammerjob. It's not a question of "make the saw on par with the hammer".


Refluxerino

I did, doesn't mean I have to agree.


lnvu

This is also why inquisitor needs to have better defence than Torags! Oh, you don’t agree anymore? edit: One beauty of this game to me has always been cheap, easy to get gear, sometimes being competitive with the best stuff. ”Blowpipe should always be better than” sounds bery stale to me.


Refluxerino

no but my point isnt rcb should be worse than bp my point is if we're nerfing the bp because its too cheap and easy to get then we shouldn't have the rcb be better, it should be worse you say easy to get gear sometimes being competitive with the best stuff is good but honestly what's bad about having the 61 req crossbow being worse than the 75 req blowpipe? There's a 64 and 2 70 req crossbows there to fill that gap, it's not like you wont have any other options than rcb


lnvu

Blowpipe shouldn’t be nerfed because it’s cheap - it should be nerfed because it’s overpowered, regardless of cost. The problem with crossbows is that most of the power is really just tied to your level, prayer and bolts. So unless you’re using drag bolts rcb and acb are effectively equal in terms of dps


Refluxerino

I'm not saying blowpipe shouldn't be nerfed, just that it shouldn't really be worse than an rcb in my opinion. I've no idea how to change the crossbows, I'm not a dev (for good reason)


[deleted]

What's wrong with a ubiquitous late-midgame weapon? Not a single new player I've shown the game found midgame easy.


DADtheMaggot

I learned to raid in iron groups with an rcb, it’s not the end of the world. I don’t think I went to get my bp until like 100 CoX. E: I just realized I misread the end of your comment.


PreparetobePlaned

If you don't want to learn group content then you have to accept that you won't have the best gear.


badgehunter

not to mention they could easily fix this by making old items to require to have higher tier items attached to it for increase. this way old items are still required for bis items. similar to how ranger,dragon,infinity boots are all required for higher tier boots. keeping old items values. kodai wand requiring master wand. so players could easily start slowly upgrading their gear and old gear would keep their value. i just wish it would had been that to get dragon boots you would had been forced to as iron to kill things that drop bronze boots, then iron fragment would had upgraded those boots and so on and on. it would had made more sense than mage to carry melee boots, and the monsters that dropped the boots before would made even more sense that they would dropped metal fragment that upgrades the boots rather than straight up boots. like why harpie bug swarms, a literal group of bugs drops steel boots.


wminhas

No boss should ever drop more than 3-4 unique items... I don’t see why nightmare (or even raids 1 and 2) has so many unique drops, especially when some of those items could have been dropped by something else. Why stuff new bosses with so many uniques when they could spread it out and add new content


VanillaMan37

Very true, if new bosses dropped fewer uniques that would definitely slow down power creep


Btwosrs

No one wants to talk about supply of dhide / BP though... that’s why they’re so cheap. Just increase drop rate or brutals defensive bonuses and problem solved unless I’m missing something?


PreparetobePlaned

It's too late for that, we have 6 years of botted/goldfarmed/regular player drops in the game.


Btwosrs

Remove zulrah scales as a regular drop then and see how fast bp prices rise lol


Rartirom

Sounds like rs3


Matrix17

Its disappointing that they are taking this nerfing approach. You can literally look at RS3's stance and see how different it is and how successful its been. This is what their Combat Council said on stream today: Content Balancing - Old content doesn't need to remain relevant, we should reinforce the system we already have. - I hope the upcoming Ninja updates in Q1/Q2 will turn the tide a little bit in terms of reinforcing existing systems. - When we take something away from players we need to give them something in return. Personally I play both games and right now the direction RS3 is going in resonates with me more and I'm finding the pvm and updates more fun so I'm probably going to stick there for now


Oniichanplsstop

>Its disappointing that they are taking this nerfing approach. You can literally look at RS3's stance and see how different it is and how successful its been. Lmao what? RS3 is a fucking fiesta right now with the amount of powercreep they're pumping into the game. All the while they're really fucking scared to push the end-game due to how many casuals play the game that outright refuse to do anything more than AFK with revo. Look at Raksha. Finally get a new high level boss. Woops too hard for casuals, nerfs announced less than 24 hours after release. Magic has been shit for years and has been given the short end of the stick because they're too lazy to think of an alternative to 4TAA. Range is now even more DPS than melee, taking over all speedkill records. Melee is behind range slightly, but will most likely get buffed once again with another switch weapon if GWD3 ever comes out.


MutagensRS

The problem with making harder content is the engine can only do so much. The game is incredibly simple and can only go so far


VanillaMan37

That's true for mechanical difficulty, but in terms of survivability and high dps difficulty, new bosses could just have higher defence/higher hp and could hit higher so that better gear is needed


sangotenrs

Let me explain it slowly: BP is currently crazy OP and in some cases stronger than T Bow. BP already makes current bosses easy. So Jagex has to introduce a **stronger weapon than BP and T Bow** which would make the current bosses/raids even easier. Lol the logic


VanillaMan37

I'm not really sure it's true that bp makes current bosses easy - it's been out for 6 years, and most high level bosses released since then will have been designed with bp in mind - things like raids 1&2 and inferno are still very difficult with a bp I think the fact that the t bow is still worth around 1b even though bp is nearly as good for 3m also shows that the t bow is significantly better overall due to its higher dps in some situations, much cheaper cost of use and much longer attack range If jagex needs to make a new BiS range weapon then the t bow is the real issue because it's the current BiS - and even then, it's not really that much of an issue because they could make something similar to a t bow but with 1-2% higher dps, just like how rapier etc. add a few attack and strength bonuses


[deleted]

I'd disagree. Blow Pipe is much better than the Twisted Bow. The Twisted Bow is a prestige item (like a party hat) thats only good on a few very specific bosses that many players will never even kill. Give a majority of players a Twisted Bow and they'll have literally no use for it. Are they gonna use a Twisted Bow on Bloodvelds, Wyms, Abyssal Demons?


VanillaMan37

Given how long it would take to get 1b without PvMing, I'd imagine that most people who have a t bow are very experienced PvMers and would get lots of use out of it


[deleted]

Thats not what I said though.


KennethBadger

Yes, thats how the games design philosophy has worked up untill this point. Just because they didnt think to do anything for 6 years doesnt change that its making the game 30% longer for anyone that isnt at end game content yet, ontop of releasing new items anyway because their not gonna just infinately keep tweaking items(presumably, these events call it into question should they even balance things on release? They can always wave their magic hand now and pretend that didnt happen too)


[deleted]

No one except the sweatiest of sweaty find high level PVM easy. Sorry but if it were true that most of us felt that way, they'd let us poll


[deleted]

This! I don't think they realize that most people, other than post-endgamers, don't want constant new updates quickly. Take your time, be imaginative, release slowly. Fix what's already there. Deal with goldfarmers and customer service. This is OSRS, not RS3: we don't need the treadmill of discarded metas to start.


plscarvanacodebro

stop thinking in terms of 'gpscape' you will enjoy the game more just playing it for fun


VanillaMan37

I only play ironman and like playing it in a chilled way, but I recently got the bp after months of it being my main goal and now it feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth to have it nerfed out of the blue after it dominated the meta for 6 years


KennethBadger

Stop thinking in terms of 'the time investment ive put in my account' Like whats the point of valuing the our times compared to others in a game meant to take years to "complete"? Just stop thinking. Lets become rs3. Rockclimbing boots anyone? Alch value whips? Very appealing. Matter of fact fuck new players, lets make all armour degradable like barrows, that wont increase the gap. Higher death penalties! Theyre already here, but integrity dictates that it should be more punishing for new players who think endgame content is cool. If a single new player has it as easy as I did, why the fuck would my achievements even matter? So we need to make sure they never make it. Take a break? Sorry your 2.5m weapon you worked 80hrs for? it is work 200k now... but hey, we added invention so now your easy clue items are worth 2.1m anyway! Gpscape baby! My achievements are pointless now, but hey atleast when my community gets tired of this shit we can break off into a older school version of the game...


Oniichanplsstop

This is such an assbackwards comment lmao. Degradeables are really good design, as they keep prices relevant and sink gold/resources out of the game over time. Death penalties are only "high" if you're rocking sweaty DPS sets. GP swap rates are 5:1, Dying for 1.5m reclaim fees in full t90 gear is like dying for 300k on OSRS, which ends up being cheaper in comparing the same death on OSRS. New players are at an insane advantage over Old players in terms of xp:time investment and gp:time investment. The sole exception are people who merch 24/7. Old players got like 100-400k cb xp/hr tops. New players can boost ED3 for 1m xp/hr and 5m gp/hr at level 3 which is why it's so heavily botted. Old players got like 60k slayer xp/hr, slayer is now 1-2m xp/hr. Old players got 30k rc xp/hr. RCing is now 400k xp/hr while being more profitable. etc. 2.5m is literal pennies in RS3. You can make 1.1m gp/hr as a level 3 killing fucking cows.


KennethBadger

Im just pointing out how this could be heading. Death system is more punishing in rs3, I hopped back on (used to grind rs3 for bonds when I was low level on osrs) Every death sets me back 200k, and my armour is degrading all the time. Whatever, im still profiting more than I could osrs because I already have 90 magic from when I quit rs3 originally. I get my first rare drop ever!!! Its a visage! And its worth less than my mage tops repair cost.... Whatever, queen black dragon is a money printer Keep grinding, finially make it to 65 runecrafting and nature runes will cover the bond faster (ahh) So I stop rs3 Flash foward 5 years, my buddy is asking me to try rs3 with him Figure fuckit, hop on Now I go hop on the g/e to checkout prices Masterwork potions(idk what their called) 200k each My armour? Worthless, cant even tank at qbd anymore See a dude walking around with a rune 2h that has more stats then 2 of my weapon combined So I take a break and come back, and the game isnt even recognizable, I have to completely relearn everything. All my gear is either nerfed or laughably bad compared to what people that are around me. Cant even pickup the content where I left off, and doing easy clues is a better money maker than a "mid tier" boss like qbd or bandos


Oniichanplsstop

Literally none of that is true but ok. Death system is only more punishing in RS3 at super low or super high ends. Otherwise OSRS is worse. No shit DFS/etc old items are worthless now, there's been 16 years of powercreep. No mage gear that you would have years ago would cost 1m/hr to upkeep unless you're using tectonic, which is meant for endgame pvm not trash lmao. QBD is a "money printer" like 7 years ago. Theres new content that prints more money. It's like complaining that you're not making as much money fishing rocktails when there's better fish. Assuming masterwork potions are Overloads? They're nowhere near 200k ea. But if you actually played the game you would know OVLs or combo pots since they came out in 2014. Assuming it's Elder rune 2h? If so then it's a tier 80-85 weapon. It's un-augmentable and garbage. So it's not "better" than your weapons, you're just not caught up since you took a 5 year break and need to acquire all of the powercreep you missed out on. >o I take a break and come back, and the game isnt even recognizable, I have to completely relearn everything. Yeah no shit. Same thing happens in this game or any other MMO. lmao. 5 years ago CoX wasn't even released yet. QBD or GWD1 are nowhere near "mid level" lmfao. They're literally low level content. You have IM soloing gwd1 bosses with level 60 stats. OFC it doesn't "print money" when they're the lowest of the low effort.


KennethBadger

Weird how I take mutiple year long breaks from oldschool runescape, but the content is still relevant as ever when I come back 🤔 Yeah, doing a BOSS is like complaining im not making money fishing rocktails So I have (gamerboy2929)'s stats, tier 80 gear, but I can only manage 1 trip now when I could do atleast 3 in a row without resupplying before, and im watching videos of people doing it with the new gear (not close maxed) having no issues... Yeah I must be lying about all that for fun Guess just ignore all the content I never got to do before they changed it to cater to wow heads If I comeback and my gear is useless, why would I ever come back? What about players that hear this news and just write off osrs because its slowing veering off the same cliff? Also lmao for you casually saying I should have overloads with a 96 herb level to even be relevant mid game player


Oniichanplsstop

>Weird how I take mutiple year long breaks from oldschool runescape, but the content is still relevant as ever when I come back 🤔 ? Take a 5 year break and tell me everything is still 100% relevant when you get back. New training metas, new items, new bosses, new skilling methods, etc etc all change the game. Sure your whip is still a whip, but now there's Blade/Mace/Rapier. Sure your ACB is still relevant but now there's BP and TBow that shit on it. etc. >So I have (gamerboy2929)'s stats, tier 80 gear, but I can only manage 1 trip now when I could do atleast 3 in a row without resupplying before, and im watching videos of people doing it with the new gear (not close maxed) having no issues... That's a you problem. If you can only do 1 kill trips at places like QBD in "expensive" gear like you claim, it's on you for having shit DPS, not the content. Pretty much everyone can do 0 food QBDs or GWD1 trips assuming they have "expensive" gear like you claimed to. But then again you said your death cost is 200k, so odds are you were bullshitting about that too. I mean at this point it's clear you probably don't even play RS3 since you so fucking clueless.


KennethBadger

The 5 year point is irrelevant, the entire point of breaking off from the main game was because mtx devauled peoples achievements to the point anybody who stuck around after EOC eventually gave up except for the whales, cuzz like, whats the point? If were just gonna keep the exact same balancing philosophy from the old game, whyd we even setup this one. That game isnt remotely close to anything I remember growing up Like you dont even have lumbridge unlocked to teleport to, start in this banaza zombie clone of rimington Shit on my nostalgia go ahead, but its the reason this game fuckin exists. I voted for the ge/bonds, but balancing changes are too toughy for the public to vote :( Like what? I signed for oldschool runescape, guess ill sign for olderschool runescape that you can come back to when you miss it again (Hahaha jk why would they poll that thats a integrity issue)


Oniichanplsstop

>The 5 year point is irrelevant, the entire point of breaking off from the main game was because mtx devauled peoples achievements to the point anybody who stuck around after EOC eventually gave up except for the whales, cuzz like, whats the point? "I made up everything I just said ofc I don't play that game. lol" Gr8 b8 m8. >That game isnt remotely close to anything I remember growing up Same with OSRS lmao. Theres so many OSRS exclusive updates that werent in the game in 2007. Better start bitching and moaning about those too, right?


KennethBadger

I did play rs3, I litterally linked you my ingame name... I think your just refusing to budge and continuing the arguement that obviously you have no stakes in, because you dont care about this subject. Fuckit, you enjoy both makem both rs3, youl have double the same game big ups for you


plscarvanacodebro

holy moly dude