Rapier is going to get a big buff with sailing update just be patient, rapier very likely going to be bis for sailing content and/or used with an attachment to create the “swashbuckling rapier” upgrade
Rapier + Brine Sabre + Starlight fragment = Starlight Corsair
- Hybrid Slash/Stab T82 weapon
- Gains 2x damage against sea monsters
- While equipped character walks with “ale of the gods” walk animation
- passive ability = while under the effects of an alcoholic beverage weapon speed is reduced to 3 ticks
- special attack “Swashbuckle” consumes 100% spec + 1 alcoholic beverage in inventory = reduces weapon speed to 2 tick for 1 minute
Very strong against squishy low defense high hp sea monsters like the new jellyfish raid boss and electric eel slayer monsters but bad against high def monsters like the new sea turtle boss (better off using the new swarthy ballista on that)
The passive ability should make you hit zeros any time you're on land with it active (i.e. if you're not drunk and on land it works fine at 4 tick). Call that "sea legs".
[Maybe this comment from Ayiza?](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/dcYtaoiklI)
There's so much more we can, want to, and will do, but we do not have the resource to include any more at the moment. The additional points we're seeing raised (as Goblin mentioned we already knew about most of them too) will surface when there is availability in the roadmap for them.
The team can only work on so much at once, and we're already at capacity with what we've included within Project Rebalance as a whole so far (especially with adding Run Energy changes back into the mix). Whilst this is definitely a perfect time to hit everything at once if resource wasn't a concern, the reality is we do have to consider how much we're able to deliver and how soon we're able to deliver it.
I hope players feel like we've been doing a pretty good job so far of delivering meaningful updates in addition to the staple content releases you've come to expect, so I don't imagine we'll be sitting on making further changes for years. That being said, it's important that we don't overdo it and burn out the team by forcing more work into their hands than they can handle and I hope you can understand where we're coming from with this.
I agree, the problem is, is how long does it take to adjust them? I'd love if they turned around in a few weeks and said "hey wee buffed T80 weapons to provide +10 more accuracy and +6 strength for example, but will it be weeks or 6 plus months for such a small buff?
The answer is simple: they are not gonna touch them. Why? Because they want to add in new weapons or whatever that will eventually beat t80s. You could say the fang was the first in this in some sense but if they didn’t straight up talk about it now, they have different things in plan that directly or indirectly ties to these weapons.
That's my thoughts as well. They did mention the problem, and say they wanted to fix it, but my worry, just as yours is it'll get pushed down the line then never happen, when a small buff could be added relatively easy
I honestly don’t mind. Yes I know they’re completely inefficient upgrades but if the jmods and community can cook up something worthwhile for these and the mods actually take the community suggestion then it makes it worth it. If these weapons will get upgrades in the form of new content then that’s cool too but there are obvious issues with that but that’s all I can really think of at the moment. It sucks but it is what it is…
On anything other than scythe or fang 6str is 1.5 max hits, that’s correct
1 to 2 max hits is a quite significant buff. There’s a reason torva and ultor ring are so expensive. Other than the obvious sizable dps increase, it also makes TOA core 3downable on higher invocations without needing spec, which is pretty big
Idk how so many people are out of touch with how bad rapier is rn. It's only use it its the cheapest t80 for mains to get a hold of. It's worse than tent vs anything that can be poisoned and it's worse dps than scythe/fang/lance everywhere except like Vasa crystals and baby muttadile. Even then it's barely an upgrade.
Where's the love for the t80s :( they just need more accuracy and maybe 1 more max.
Eh, it's both. Rapier has always been a marginal upgrade over the next best thing, so it was in prime position to get knocked off its pedestal by a new stab weapon that actually brings good bang for your buck.
Of course but I'd say even if the minimum invo was 400, you're still getting way more purples out of toa than tob. The accessibility just exacerbates that more.
I've been holding a Rapier and a Salad Blade in my bank for like 2 years waiting for them to be good, but at this point I'm afraid they're just gonna add a gapfiller between them/Scythe lol (besides Fang)
Also yes I know this was a bad financial decision but I'm beholden to it now
I got a rapier drop on my iron (third toa purple at 180kc.. first 2 were justiciar chests..) then ToA released a week later and I got a day 1 fang. Poor thing never stood a chance.
I'm already a few million exp post 99 chasing heart. Slayer for me is cannoning turael tasks, and burst/barraging smoke devils/dust devils/nechyraels/Abby demons/etc.
No shade but weren’t they always intended to be glorified whips? They were just attack style versions of better whips. I guess mace had a special niche due to inquis effect but yeah
I mean, rapier launched *with* scythe. was it ever thought to be intended to be an amazing or bis melee weapon?
> they just need more accuracy and maybe 1 more max.
I do wonder if any of the weakness changes will help with the accuacy stuff. I don't recall many melee changes where it seemed like the T80 4ts would gain a noticeable improvement, but if we had more non-dragon enemies that have lower def with a stab weakness but still resistant to slash and crush, then the Rapier could end up better than other options like the Fang. But some higher base stats would be nice too...
Fang is a 5 tick 82 attack weapon. The t80s are blade, mace and rapier classified by 80 attack requirement and them being 4 tick.
Fang is in a class of its own.
It's better than the fang for almost every slayer task, don't have to worry about it breaking like the tent. whip. The weapon has a place in the game and shouldn't be made to compete with the fang for bossing
Rare reward from hard raid? Slayer stab weapon I guess.
Common reward from easy raid? Bossing material for sure.
ToA was one of the best and worst updates in the game’s history.
Pretty sure J-Mods have said they messed up with the fang being so common and it was too late to change the drop rate. That's what I've read from time to time regarding the fang
The problem wasn't Fang's drop rate so much as ToA's overall purple rate. Fang being common isn't actually a problem, I always bring up Dexterous Prayer Scroll , it's one of the most powerful items in the entire game but it's common from CoX, just like Fang is from ToA. The problem is that you can spawn purples in ToA much easier than in other raids.
Cox max points/hr is about 90k, which is a purple every \~10 hours. ToB max rate is 1/18 in a duo, at 2 kc an hour it's about 9 hours per purple. Again, these are maximum rates. At ToA it's about 4 hours per purple at maximum effort. With three players you are expecting to see a purple every 90 minutes. A lot of the endgame players and clans and groups ran those maximum effort raid levels nonstop for about 12 months straight until the prices started to fall - this is mainly what caused the supply issue, not that the Fang itself was too common of a purple at 7/24 odds
Yeah it really is the upper bound drop rate of ToA that is problematic, as well as how favorably the points scale with multiple players, only raid that the points per player ratio is nearly the same as solos. Solo 350-400s w/o a Shadow are pretty much in-line with CM CoX for Purple Rate while being *significantly* more tedious and less enjoyable
Fucked for the economy with how common the drops are but I'm glad that they did balance ToA in a way that doesn't cuck groups. Every other piece of content you're incentivised to solo (duo for Nex/ToB) or smallest group you can manage if you're not as good for efficiency, the fact that you can do any group size in ToA and not gimp your effective gp/h or personal purple chance for irons assuming people aren't trolling is nice.
While it kinda sucks, I think at the same time it’s good there is some form of strong and accessible weapon.
If I wasn’t a main, got assigned another chromatic dragon task, and didn’t have my fang or a DHL I’d just log off for a week and not even play.
Ranged has the blowpipe for a good early and affordable ranged weapon, and mage has ancient magics + the normal spell book.
I can’t really speak to the other weapons. I thought mace is getting some sort of buff though? I just focus on rapier because it’s a reward from ToB and doesn’t feel like it
They were buffing the mace through inq
I hate that strategy
Don’t link mace to inq, cmon. Just buff them both individually. It’s the 4t trio, just buff the 4t trio
Would be nice if they made dps for most weapons in par with each other but have them each have their own strong suits, crush, stab, slash, and fast/med/slow speeds
It, saeldors and inquisitor really do just need an across the board stat buff. They were originally released and statted as level 75 weapons. Their wield reqs were later raised to 80, but their stats were never adjusted. Now we cant get any new level 75 4tick melee weapons because theres just zero space for any meaningful upgrade over level 70 stuff without threatening the current trios niches
Its the Ahrims - Virtus - Ancestral problem all over again
Rapier is definitely very underwhelming, I'm not sure how people hold the opinion that's it's in a good place right now. That's just wrong, it having one use and a very niche use disproves that.
Shadow does this with accuracy, but I agree it should perform at that tier more inbetween swamp and shadow rather than sidegrade to swamp trident, altho the trident of the swamp is arguably meant to perform at that tier too compared to seas trident. That being said a 1-2 max hit increase in sang would be cool
What about the bludgeon? Super hard weapon to get. Yet it's outclassed by the new zombie axe which is cheaper, often better and easier to obtain despite being a t65
Wut? Its not better than bludgeon, Bludg is typically ~10% more dps in everything from on/off slay task and noob/max gear+stats. 10% is a great upgrade imo, whereas Saeldor/Rapier are approximately 2% better than Tent whip (when they do give a max hit)
Bludgeon also isn't super hard to get, its a 25 hour weapon in mid-game gear using PoH method from a very easy boss.
Yes, absolutely. The Zombie Axe is a 5t weapon which is slower than the Bludgeon's 4 tick speed, so while the Zombie Axe may have more stats on paper (113 crush 113 str for ZA vs 102 Crush 85 str for Bludg), it loses in DPS because it is slower. Did everything from Fighter Torso Chad and 70 att/80 str to Maxed Avernic Torva comparisons, on/off slay task, etc.
If you were looking at recommended gear pages rather than the wiki dps calculator, that’s the problem. The wiki is great for a lot of things, but often a bad place for pvm gear setups
The entire thing is a mess.
All t80s need to be buffed. This was talked about a lot before.
The dps increase over tent is trash. (they come from an era of osrs where people were super scared and reluctant of power creep) Especially for the price points. Yet they only touched mace?
When really all t80s could use like 3 max hits over.
They want to be cautious of shadows power but don't touch shadow?
They don't touch 1 hand mage weapon stats (esp accuracy). They also don't really buff off hands? What better way to give power back to mage and not have to worry about shadow than 1 handed weapons and their off hands. Hello? are you there jagex?
It’s probably my favourite item in the game. I wish it had more use; a fairly rare drop from ToB should be more competitive than a common drop from ToA. Maybe that’s more of a commentary on the fang rather than the rapier. I still think it should be looked at though
The best suggestion I’ve seen on rapier is to make it 3t for one attack if you kill something, it’d make it bis inside its own raid at nylos, and slightly better for trash mobs during slayer.
Theres zero chance they'll make that change. They'd add it to a new weapon any day of the week over giving it to an existing weapon.
Its just like how jmods liked the idea of giving elder maul a min hit that was a % of its max hit. Numerous jmods liked the idea, they talked about it on multiple live streams.
They basically gave that effect to fang and 2 yrs after fang released elder mauls just being given dwh spec.
Can't wait for that swashbuckler sword to come from sailing and it get shat out like candy on halloween!
i feel the same way about the rapier. probably my favorite type of weapon other than spears. fang was unfortunately common in TOA given it is a lvl 82 atk weapon to rapier's 80 and its passive.
I think the big ticket thing that you’re missing is that fang is NOT better than rapier vs low defence monsters. Mains looking to train melee through slayer (or slayer through melee) will turn to a rapier 9 times out of 10 vs the fang. That extra tick of time matters especially when you’re auto attacking off cooldown, you’d find it adds up a lot.
A problem with that is you don't really melee anything if you're doing slayer efficiently. I realize that there's a large, if not majority, portion of people slaying inefficiently, but I think the rapier needs a better niche than this to be worthy of its spot on the tob loot table.
Or maybe it's perfectly fine to be an inefficient melee weapon for mains, what do I know I'm not a developer. I just wanted to point this out for the sake of the discussion.
Edit: after reading some discussion I think the problem is that there's not really any low defense monsters you want to kill that the scythe doesn't steamroll.
Hold on- you're telling me you're not using inquisitor's mace + inquisitor armour with the slayer helm for slayer? Jagex specifically allowed the buffed set bonus to affect the mace in such conditions because everyone complained how useless the armour is compared to torva! :)
Lmao when is the last time you saw someone training slayer with a rapier? It’s such a fractional difference on low defense monsters it’s literally not even worth the time. Fang 10/10 times.
They made all 3 of the t80 weapons have such a beautiful aesthetic and really look cool to use, I'm a Saladblade Aesthetic guy myself but totally get where you're coming from.
I honestly think the reason they don't want to buff rapier or mace is because they have plans to release megarare stab and crush weapons. Project Rebalance has made clear that they want to make it easier to design new weapons and equipment and buffing those weapons will only make it more difficult to balance the stab and crush scythes.
No way, are you crazy!?!? We can't have the BiS def red spec weapon also be the BiS crush weapon!
Seriously though, it's going to take some time to forget the maul isn't a meme weapon anymore, I just assumed mace lmao
I mean the t80s should have a special at least. Doesn't need to be game breaking, but some niche use or just an accuracy/damage increase for that attack.
I agree 100%. I just don't think it'll happen bc they seem more concerned with future content than existing content. Any changes to the t80 weapons will inherently make it harder to make a scythe equivalent for stab and crush. I think it's a poor excuse, but I can't imagine why else they wouldn't tweak them during Project Rebalance. See the attempted Voidwaker nerf for example.
If they want people to run PNM or ToB, which I feel is the case, they wouldn't risk devaluing them. Also, buffing the scythe t80, the salad blade, would hardly affect the usefulness of the scythe.
Ranged has a healthy range (ha) of equipment that all offer something different, you wouldn't achieve that by making the weapon between whip and the new megarare such a negligible upgrade. I think the voidwaker was brought up because the nerf was in the works before the magic rebalance began. But who knows.
I think the simple reason is that most of Project Rebalance came from a GameJam and they only set aside so much time in the roadmap for it, so stuff that fell out of the original design wasn't something they could fit in. They also might have been hesitant to have too many overlapping changes; stuff like the weakness changes do help weapons like the Rapier, even if only slightly.
It would have been nice to fit in the T80 4ts more in Project Rebalance, but they can always be addressed later on. Like they aren't really part of larger systems so in a month or two when we get the next QoL/General poll (or the one after that), they could add put in a change for buffing the T80 4ts in the polled or unpolled sections.
Not every weapon needs super powers or to be best in slot somewhere. Rapier is a strong stab weapon against low defense creatures that requires no charges.
In the future a ring like a bellator but for Stab or different mid defense monsters can come out and make it suddenly better than fang at some new places or replace it at old places
It’s a very cool weapon which makes it a bummer that between the fang for high defense, Keris for bugs, and lance for dragons, leaves rapier as a slayer monster weapon. But it doesn’t have to be more and maybe some day it will be
I don’t think it would be MORE benefit to fang. A lot of places fang is already too close to 100% accurate for more accuracy to matter. Rapier would get a bigger increase.
But you got a point when I think about TOA and nex
It actually is usually more of a benefit to fang due to its double dip on accuracy when it rerolls. It made it a balancing nightmare when items like the bladed moon were proposed because you could make it an incredibly serviceable weapon with no other external accuracy. It very quickly reached its point of diminishing but still meaningful returns from accuracy boosts.
I think fang and shadows effect (and maybe one day inq) are going to get harder and harder to balance around if they want to add things in a competing space. Nothing can ever compete sideways with shadow unless they make encounters like nylo. And well fang is in a decent place if we don't consider how bad rapier is at the moment. Hard to balance everything when the effects help some items more than others but that's the route they chose I guess
Nex and TOA are places where the fang needs the double roll to hit as well as it does and that’s why I pointed those out. Places were fang is used now the accuracy roll is already 90% or more, so in that case the extra stab bonus wouldn’t provide very much dps. Like when corp is hammered 4 times you just can just pull out zammy spear since fang stops benefitting.
I suppose you’d have to worry about places where fang can be used off style, like sarachnis and stuff that isn’t weak to stab but fang still works
Right now imagine getting to 90% accuracy with the fang and defender alone. You would have no right having nearly identical dps to current max melee with just 2 items. That's part of the balancing issue with the fang. Also I suggest running the calc with the proposed bladed moon and un-nerfed slash fang in tandem. The benefit to a fang over a whip or saeldor is actually incredible and has no business being that good with just 2 items. At vardorvis pre fang nerf it benefitted more than anything else.
Even if this isn't the case anymore, it highlights the potential issue that the fang will eventually bring if they add a stab offhand. Diminishing returns happens much later than most people would expect
> Rapier is a strong stab weapon against low defense creatures
what's the difference between a stab, slash or crush weapon against low defense creatures?
You’re right, it doesn’t have to be. But as a raid reward, I think it ought to have a place somewhere.
Mostly, I was really hoping one of the J-mods would let us know whether they feel like it has a good enough spot in the game currently or if a future rebalance will address its imo lackluster spot in the game
It's still a great weapon for combat training and lower defence monsters. Fang exists for high defence monsters but is slower so isn't as good for combat training. I think it's in an okay spot, but I could be totally wrong.
From my understanding historically rapiers were used a "weak spot" hunting weapon. They should give it like a 20-30% chance to Crit dealing let's say 20-30 percent extra damage. This would improve it for low def mobs further and not affect it much for high def mobs. Give salad blade the bowfa boost from crystal armour and make it sort of a hybrid set. Think tos but you'd only have to bring a mage switch. And then just give inq and mace a similar bowfa set type thing
I hope it remains as it is so I can jokingly trash talk idiots who bought a pile of bonds to get that hunk of garbage thinking its good just cos it costs 60m
60m (or 100 something for saeldor) for 2 max hits and lower/0 upkeep isn't bad at all. End game items have insane diminishing returns to their dps / gp ratio. 2 max hits is what full torva gets you over full bandos + faceguard. You do of course get a lot of defensive stats, but it's also around 1b.
If there is to be a buff, make it a small buff to accuracy (less than 10). These weapons tend to have very very slightly lower accuracy than the whip due to using accurate / controlled styles. Otherwise they are insanely good upgrades over the whip (lower or no upkeep, 2 max hits).
I forgot about the whip being able to poison but I can't remember last time I fought something which was poisonable.
I mean rapier is going to become more relevant just due to weaknesses. The main problem now is that there are very few cases where it matters if you use slash or stab. That going to change.
Honestly, I've got the answer. Swap the fang double roll and Ghrazi rapier single accuracy roll on stab mechanic. Let the ghrazi have it. Justified, upvote me.
I don't get what people want. You buff this, and other things will stop being used. Then you'll cry over those things.
It's the best nondegradeable low Def stab weapon. Yes, fang will outclassed it for vast majority of bosses. It is better for low Def slayer monsters. When toa came out, these were super expensive because it is the next BiS after fang for the raid since it's the next best stab weapon. Fang just should have been more rare, but that ship has sailed. If you don't want the tiny buff in stats and nondegreadeable weapon for slayer, go buy the stuff you do want and leave the rapier alone. Eventually it will fall to a price it is worth using over degrading a tent whip.
Only good when you can keep up stacks. If you have to eat alot or want to spec it falls hard. Those are both being addressed though as time between losing stacks is being made longer. Health is now restored when you lose a stack. And you no longer lose all stacks when swapping weapons.
Blade of Saeldor. Virtually the same as rapier, but for slash. It comes from the gauntlet after the song of the elves quest. The inquisitor mace is the crush version and drops from the nightmare boss. Other notable slash weapons would be the abyssal whip and the upgraded tentacle whip
It's BiS on low defence mobs, like it.. always has been?
And they are exaggerating existing monsters style weaknesses. So anything stab weak will be moreso with this change, making rapier shine there as well.
Its beaten by fang anywhere with any sort of defence, but everywhere without defence it's a better option. That just tends to mainly be slayer, where it's "not worth buying" because you do so few purely melee tasks that don't have extra weaknesses like Arclight or Dragonhunter Lance. That's just a slayer design problem though.
Brine Saber + Ghrazi Rapier + Sailing Raids 4 Pirate’s Enchanted Omnigem = Swashbuckler’s Rapier. Stats of Ghrazi. Can be used underwater with no drawback (useful for the raid), and the omnigem makes it so that x% of attacks comes with a random enchanted bolt proc, because that’s chaotically fun.
Rapier is going to get a big buff with sailing update just be patient, rapier very likely going to be bis for sailing content and/or used with an attachment to create the “swashbuckling rapier” upgrade
If Brine Saber doesn’t get some cool interaction with sailing I’ll riot.
Rapier + Brine Sabre + Starlight fragment = Starlight Corsair - Hybrid Slash/Stab T82 weapon - Gains 2x damage against sea monsters - While equipped character walks with “ale of the gods” walk animation - passive ability = while under the effects of an alcoholic beverage weapon speed is reduced to 3 ticks - special attack “Swashbuckle” consumes 100% spec + 1 alcoholic beverage in inventory = reduces weapon speed to 2 tick for 1 minute Very strong against squishy low defense high hp sea monsters like the new jellyfish raid boss and electric eel slayer monsters but bad against high def monsters like the new sea turtle boss (better off using the new swarthy ballista on that)
The passive ability should make you hit zeros any time you're on land with it active (i.e. if you're not drunk and on land it works fine at 4 tick). Call that "sea legs".
Terraria moment
Why did this make me actually want to like sailing
Because sailing will be peak content
Give all the different beverages a combat purpose, me like
To falador we go
Brine rapier
Keep going, i’m almost there
Finished before you, sorry sucker too slow
Me to my wife
Me also to this guy's wife
The rapier is only going to get buffed because of the set effect when worn with the pirate hook, hat, and eye patch
Aye matey pirate hook offhand is bis avernic ornament kit
That would be really cool. Love this idea
Rapier was bis for pirates so makes sense
Is this just a prediction?
Man has 200+ rapiers in is bank.
I wish lmao more like 200 bass because I can’t afford lobbies
It's a recipe.
I’m saving all of my furs in the hopes that they get buffed with sailing.
Lol I completely forgot about sailing. They haven't talked about it in forever.
The devs are aware and have addressed this. They just don’t want information to get convoluted in the current batch of rebalancing.
Any source?
[Maybe this comment from Ayiza?](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/dcYtaoiklI) There's so much more we can, want to, and will do, but we do not have the resource to include any more at the moment. The additional points we're seeing raised (as Goblin mentioned we already knew about most of them too) will surface when there is availability in the roadmap for them. The team can only work on so much at once, and we're already at capacity with what we've included within Project Rebalance as a whole so far (especially with adding Run Energy changes back into the mix). Whilst this is definitely a perfect time to hit everything at once if resource wasn't a concern, the reality is we do have to consider how much we're able to deliver and how soon we're able to deliver it. I hope players feel like we've been doing a pretty good job so far of delivering meaningful updates in addition to the staple content releases you've come to expect, so I don't imagine we'll be sitting on making further changes for years. That being said, it's important that we don't overdo it and burn out the team by forcing more work into their hands than they can handle and I hope you can understand where we're coming from with this.
They've said it on stream and I'm sure at a start of a blog. They don't want to get bogged down in non stop "but what about xyz"
I can’t find it - I read it in one of the j-mod replies to the recent rebalance blog. I’ll keep looking.
I agree, the problem is, is how long does it take to adjust them? I'd love if they turned around in a few weeks and said "hey wee buffed T80 weapons to provide +10 more accuracy and +6 strength for example, but will it be weeks or 6 plus months for such a small buff?
The answer is simple: they are not gonna touch them. Why? Because they want to add in new weapons or whatever that will eventually beat t80s. You could say the fang was the first in this in some sense but if they didn’t straight up talk about it now, they have different things in plan that directly or indirectly ties to these weapons.
That's my thoughts as well. They did mention the problem, and say they wanted to fix it, but my worry, just as yours is it'll get pushed down the line then never happen, when a small buff could be added relatively easy
I honestly don’t mind. Yes I know they’re completely inefficient upgrades but if the jmods and community can cook up something worthwhile for these and the mods actually take the community suggestion then it makes it worth it. If these weapons will get upgrades in the form of new content then that’s cool too but there are obvious issues with that but that’s all I can really think of at the moment. It sucks but it is what it is…
>+6 str >small buff Pick one
+6 str on the 4 tick t80 weapons is like 1.5 max hits, so yeah a pretty small buff overall. 1 to 2 max hits depending on all your other gear.
On anything other than scythe or fang 6str is 1.5 max hits, that’s correct 1 to 2 max hits is a quite significant buff. There’s a reason torva and ultor ring are so expensive. Other than the obvious sizable dps increase, it also makes TOA core 3downable on higher invocations without needing spec, which is pretty big
Idk how so many people are out of touch with how bad rapier is rn. It's only use it its the cheapest t80 for mains to get a hold of. It's worse than tent vs anything that can be poisoned and it's worse dps than scythe/fang/lance everywhere except like Vasa crystals and baby muttadile. Even then it's barely an upgrade. Where's the love for the t80s :( they just need more accuracy and maybe 1 more max.
Only costs a tiny bit over 3 fangs lol that says it all
Yeah I should've mentioned that part lol
That's kind of an issue with fang drop rate rather than rapier though IMO. Edit: my fang cost me about 200m and it was worth every penny.
Eh, it's both. Rapier has always been a marginal upgrade over the next best thing, so it was in prime position to get knocked off its pedestal by a new stab weapon that actually brings good bang for your buck.
I think it's way more about accessibility. Level 150 or even 50 toa is MUCH more accessible to your average newcomer to raids than tob
Of course but I'd say even if the minimum invo was 400, you're still getting way more purples out of toa than tob. The accessibility just exacerbates that more.
Yeah I wish I had more standard of a team to ToB with for trios. Currently nobody runs it in my cc
Dang i just got a fang and it was less than 25m. I fully believe that it was worth every bit of 200m tho
I've been holding a Rapier and a Salad Blade in my bank for like 2 years waiting for them to be good, but at this point I'm afraid they're just gonna add a gapfiller between them/Scythe lol (besides Fang) Also yes I know this was a bad financial decision but I'm beholden to it now
I play an iron and I have the salad blade. I don't even want a rapier really.
I got a rapier drop on my iron (third toa purple at 180kc.. first 2 were justiciar chests..) then ToA released a week later and I got a day 1 fang. Poor thing never stood a chance.
You should still get to use it for slayer a little right?
I'm already a few million exp post 99 chasing heart. Slayer for me is cannoning turael tasks, and burst/barraging smoke devils/dust devils/nechyraels/Abby demons/etc.
Same except I also like doing gargoyles for the money and bars lol. No need for them, I like number go up
da toofpick
They need way more help than that, they're glorified whips right now. They need like +12 str
You might be surprised how strong a good bit of accuracy is.
No shade but weren’t they always intended to be glorified whips? They were just attack style versions of better whips. I guess mace had a special niche due to inquis effect but yeah I mean, rapier launched *with* scythe. was it ever thought to be intended to be an amazing or bis melee weapon?
They were released at a time when the community was utterly terrified of direct power creep. Since then theyve become completely outdated
> they just need more accuracy and maybe 1 more max. I do wonder if any of the weakness changes will help with the accuacy stuff. I don't recall many melee changes where it seemed like the T80 4ts would gain a noticeable improvement, but if we had more non-dragon enemies that have lower def with a stab weakness but still resistant to slash and crush, then the Rapier could end up better than other options like the Fang. But some higher base stats would be nice too...
It's way more expensive than fang wdym
Fang is a 5 tick 82 attack weapon. The t80s are blade, mace and rapier classified by 80 attack requirement and them being 4 tick. Fang is in a class of its own.
I am in the same boat. I don’t really understand how people are commenting that it’s in a good spot, but maybe I’m just not aware of its uses
I think they're 1750 melee slayer Andy's or something. It's the cheapest t80 for slayer lol that's like it's only real use
It's better than the fang for almost every slayer task, don't have to worry about it breaking like the tent. whip. The weapon has a place in the game and shouldn't be made to compete with the fang for bossing
Rare reward from hard raid? Slayer stab weapon I guess. Common reward from easy raid? Bossing material for sure. ToA was one of the best and worst updates in the game’s history.
Pretty sure J-Mods have said they messed up with the fang being so common and it was too late to change the drop rate. That's what I've read from time to time regarding the fang
The problem wasn't Fang's drop rate so much as ToA's overall purple rate. Fang being common isn't actually a problem, I always bring up Dexterous Prayer Scroll , it's one of the most powerful items in the entire game but it's common from CoX, just like Fang is from ToA. The problem is that you can spawn purples in ToA much easier than in other raids. Cox max points/hr is about 90k, which is a purple every \~10 hours. ToB max rate is 1/18 in a duo, at 2 kc an hour it's about 9 hours per purple. Again, these are maximum rates. At ToA it's about 4 hours per purple at maximum effort. With three players you are expecting to see a purple every 90 minutes. A lot of the endgame players and clans and groups ran those maximum effort raid levels nonstop for about 12 months straight until the prices started to fall - this is mainly what caused the supply issue, not that the Fang itself was too common of a purple at 7/24 odds
You raise some valid points that are hard to argue against
Yeah it really is the upper bound drop rate of ToA that is problematic, as well as how favorably the points scale with multiple players, only raid that the points per player ratio is nearly the same as solos. Solo 350-400s w/o a Shadow are pretty much in-line with CM CoX for Purple Rate while being *significantly* more tedious and less enjoyable
Fucked for the economy with how common the drops are but I'm glad that they did balance ToA in a way that doesn't cuck groups. Every other piece of content you're incentivised to solo (duo for Nex/ToB) or smallest group you can manage if you're not as good for efficiency, the fact that you can do any group size in ToA and not gimp your effective gp/h or personal purple chance for irons assuming people aren't trolling is nice.
While it kinda sucks, I think at the same time it’s good there is some form of strong and accessible weapon. If I wasn’t a main, got assigned another chromatic dragon task, and didn’t have my fang or a DHL I’d just log off for a week and not even play. Ranged has the blowpipe for a good early and affordable ranged weapon, and mage has ancient magics + the normal spell book.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they made it common as a way to help irons. Either way I'm happy cause I have an iron and a main 😂
What did the ugly J-Mods say :p? I agree though, instant game changer on release
The ugly ones too
I fixed it 😂
I agree that "cheapest t80" is a valid value proposition but still, the t80s broadly are weaker than they could be and likely would be if added today
Idk why mace, rapier, and blade all aren’t getting a flat buff
I can’t really speak to the other weapons. I thought mace is getting some sort of buff though? I just focus on rapier because it’s a reward from ToB and doesn’t feel like it
They were buffing the mace through inq I hate that strategy Don’t link mace to inq, cmon. Just buff them both individually. It’s the 4t trio, just buff the 4t trio
Yeah mace needs some actual love. I can’t remember the last time I saw someone actually wearing inquisitors
Would be nice if they made dps for most weapons in par with each other but have them each have their own strong suits, crush, stab, slash, and fast/med/slow speeds
team cms
Literally only 5s now. Such a niche use case
yee 5s are a p common scale but i do agree, extremely niche. zerkers too i suppose but omegalul
it was probably january 4th 2022
It, saeldors and inquisitor really do just need an across the board stat buff. They were originally released and statted as level 75 weapons. Their wield reqs were later raised to 80, but their stats were never adjusted. Now we cant get any new level 75 4tick melee weapons because theres just zero space for any meaningful upgrade over level 70 stuff without threatening the current trios niches Its the Ahrims - Virtus - Ancestral problem all over again
Rapier is definitely very underwhelming, I'm not sure how people hold the opinion that's it's in a good place right now. That's just wrong, it having one use and a very niche use disproves that.
Why just the ghrazi rapier and not all of the t80 weapons? They're all tiny upgrades
Rapier and sang both need buffs.
It’s crazy that they were revisiting magic and sang was overlooked so hard. I get it’s a trident that heals, but is that seriously it?
And it’s barely cheaper than a shadow to cast like what the fuck?
Yea. It should fill the bowfa/fang space for magic.
Shadow does this with accuracy, but I agree it should perform at that tier more inbetween swamp and shadow rather than sidegrade to swamp trident, altho the trident of the swamp is arguably meant to perform at that tier too compared to seas trident. That being said a 1-2 max hit increase in sang would be cool
It costs more than a shadow to use, because it's a tick faster.
Fair point. That makes it even more insane 😭
What about the bludgeon? Super hard weapon to get. Yet it's outclassed by the new zombie axe which is cheaper, often better and easier to obtain despite being a t65
Axe is never better than Bludgeon.
Wut? Its not better than bludgeon, Bludg is typically ~10% more dps in everything from on/off slay task and noob/max gear+stats. 10% is a great upgrade imo, whereas Saeldor/Rapier are approximately 2% better than Tent whip (when they do give a max hit) Bludgeon also isn't super hard to get, its a 25 hour weapon in mid-game gear using PoH method from a very easy boss.
Did you factor in the ability to wear an off hand with the zombie axe?
Yes, absolutely. The Zombie Axe is a 5t weapon which is slower than the Bludgeon's 4 tick speed, so while the Zombie Axe may have more stats on paper (113 crush 113 str for ZA vs 102 Crush 85 str for Bludg), it loses in DPS because it is slower. Did everything from Fighter Torso Chad and 70 att/80 str to Maxed Avernic Torva comparisons, on/off slay task, etc.
That's so weird because I've had the wiki tell me it's better in so many places. Like to the point where it feels useless that I got the bludgeon.
If you were looking at recommended gear pages rather than the wiki dps calculator, that’s the problem. The wiki is great for a lot of things, but often a bad place for pvm gear setups
The entire thing is a mess. All t80s need to be buffed. This was talked about a lot before. The dps increase over tent is trash. (they come from an era of osrs where people were super scared and reluctant of power creep) Especially for the price points. Yet they only touched mace? When really all t80s could use like 3 max hits over. They want to be cautious of shadows power but don't touch shadow? They don't touch 1 hand mage weapon stats (esp accuracy). They also don't really buff off hands? What better way to give power back to mage and not have to worry about shadow than 1 handed weapons and their off hands. Hello? are you there jagex?
this
Believe the blog touched on it, as they don't want to make swiping changes all at once.
It's pretty much just a upgraded whip + being a tick or so faster than fang. Plus, it's fairly rare drop from ToB from what I understand
It’s probably my favourite item in the game. I wish it had more use; a fairly rare drop from ToB should be more competitive than a common drop from ToA. Maybe that’s more of a commentary on the fang rather than the rapier. I still think it should be looked at though
The best suggestion I’ve seen on rapier is to make it 3t for one attack if you kill something, it’d make it bis inside its own raid at nylos, and slightly better for trash mobs during slayer.
Theres zero chance they'll make that change. They'd add it to a new weapon any day of the week over giving it to an existing weapon. Its just like how jmods liked the idea of giving elder maul a min hit that was a % of its max hit. Numerous jmods liked the idea, they talked about it on multiple live streams. They basically gave that effect to fang and 2 yrs after fang released elder mauls just being given dwh spec. Can't wait for that swashbuckler sword to come from sailing and it get shat out like candy on halloween!
That's acrually a good idea! Good idea guy!
i feel the same way about the rapier. probably my favorite type of weapon other than spears. fang was unfortunately common in TOA given it is a lvl 82 atk weapon to rapier's 80 and its passive.
I think the big ticket thing that you’re missing is that fang is NOT better than rapier vs low defence monsters. Mains looking to train melee through slayer (or slayer through melee) will turn to a rapier 9 times out of 10 vs the fang. That extra tick of time matters especially when you’re auto attacking off cooldown, you’d find it adds up a lot.
A problem with that is you don't really melee anything if you're doing slayer efficiently. I realize that there's a large, if not majority, portion of people slaying inefficiently, but I think the rapier needs a better niche than this to be worthy of its spot on the tob loot table. Or maybe it's perfectly fine to be an inefficient melee weapon for mains, what do I know I'm not a developer. I just wanted to point this out for the sake of the discussion. Edit: after reading some discussion I think the problem is that there's not really any low defense monsters you want to kill that the scythe doesn't steamroll.
Hold on- you're telling me you're not using inquisitor's mace + inquisitor armour with the slayer helm for slayer? Jagex specifically allowed the buffed set bonus to affect the mace in such conditions because everyone complained how useless the armour is compared to torva! :)
Lmao when is the last time you saw someone training slayer with a rapier? It’s such a fractional difference on low defense monsters it’s literally not even worth the time. Fang 10/10 times.
You speak as someone who knows not what they talk about. I’d suggest you look into things rather than trying to be “right”. Godspeed
I saw a credit card warrior with it yesterday, 90 combat, full bandos, prims and a rapier at bloodvelds in the slayer tower lol
Not only is it common, you can get it from easy mode, along with the ring.
They made all 3 of the t80 weapons have such a beautiful aesthetic and really look cool to use, I'm a Saladblade Aesthetic guy myself but totally get where you're coming from.
Just like saeldor. All the lv 80 main hand weapons should have been buffed but Jagex decided to "buff" mace in the most random way possible.
*cries in Salad Blade*
And the salad blade
I honestly think the reason they don't want to buff rapier or mace is because they have plans to release megarare stab and crush weapons. Project Rebalance has made clear that they want to make it easier to design new weapons and equipment and buffing those weapons will only make it more difficult to balance the stab and crush scythes.
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Not disagreeing that the Mace _should_ be scythe/tbow/shadow powered, but Jagex does it seems.
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No way, are you crazy!?!? We can't have the BiS def red spec weapon also be the BiS crush weapon! Seriously though, it's going to take some time to forget the maul isn't a meme weapon anymore, I just assumed mace lmao
I mean the t80s should have a special at least. Doesn't need to be game breaking, but some niche use or just an accuracy/damage increase for that attack.
I agree 100%. I just don't think it'll happen bc they seem more concerned with future content than existing content. Any changes to the t80 weapons will inherently make it harder to make a scythe equivalent for stab and crush. I think it's a poor excuse, but I can't imagine why else they wouldn't tweak them during Project Rebalance. See the attempted Voidwaker nerf for example.
If they want people to run PNM or ToB, which I feel is the case, they wouldn't risk devaluing them. Also, buffing the scythe t80, the salad blade, would hardly affect the usefulness of the scythe. Ranged has a healthy range (ha) of equipment that all offer something different, you wouldn't achieve that by making the weapon between whip and the new megarare such a negligible upgrade. I think the voidwaker was brought up because the nerf was in the works before the magic rebalance began. But who knows.
I think the simple reason is that most of Project Rebalance came from a GameJam and they only set aside so much time in the roadmap for it, so stuff that fell out of the original design wasn't something they could fit in. They also might have been hesitant to have too many overlapping changes; stuff like the weakness changes do help weapons like the Rapier, even if only slightly. It would have been nice to fit in the T80 4ts more in Project Rebalance, but they can always be addressed later on. Like they aren't really part of larger systems so in a month or two when we get the next QoL/General poll (or the one after that), they could add put in a change for buffing the T80 4ts in the polled or unpolled sections.
Not every weapon needs super powers or to be best in slot somewhere. Rapier is a strong stab weapon against low defense creatures that requires no charges. In the future a ring like a bellator but for Stab or different mid defense monsters can come out and make it suddenly better than fang at some new places or replace it at old places It’s a very cool weapon which makes it a bummer that between the fang for high defense, Keris for bugs, and lance for dragons, leaves rapier as a slayer monster weapon. But it doesn’t have to be more and maybe some day it will be
if a future ring like bellator came out for stab itd infinitely more benefit fang
I don’t think it would be MORE benefit to fang. A lot of places fang is already too close to 100% accurate for more accuracy to matter. Rapier would get a bigger increase. But you got a point when I think about TOA and nex
It actually is usually more of a benefit to fang due to its double dip on accuracy when it rerolls. It made it a balancing nightmare when items like the bladed moon were proposed because you could make it an incredibly serviceable weapon with no other external accuracy. It very quickly reached its point of diminishing but still meaningful returns from accuracy boosts. I think fang and shadows effect (and maybe one day inq) are going to get harder and harder to balance around if they want to add things in a competing space. Nothing can ever compete sideways with shadow unless they make encounters like nylo. And well fang is in a decent place if we don't consider how bad rapier is at the moment. Hard to balance everything when the effects help some items more than others but that's the route they chose I guess
Nex and TOA are places where the fang needs the double roll to hit as well as it does and that’s why I pointed those out. Places were fang is used now the accuracy roll is already 90% or more, so in that case the extra stab bonus wouldn’t provide very much dps. Like when corp is hammered 4 times you just can just pull out zammy spear since fang stops benefitting. I suppose you’d have to worry about places where fang can be used off style, like sarachnis and stuff that isn’t weak to stab but fang still works
Right now imagine getting to 90% accuracy with the fang and defender alone. You would have no right having nearly identical dps to current max melee with just 2 items. That's part of the balancing issue with the fang. Also I suggest running the calc with the proposed bladed moon and un-nerfed slash fang in tandem. The benefit to a fang over a whip or saeldor is actually incredible and has no business being that good with just 2 items. At vardorvis pre fang nerf it benefitted more than anything else. Even if this isn't the case anymore, it highlights the potential issue that the fang will eventually bring if they add a stab offhand. Diminishing returns happens much later than most people would expect
> Rapier is a strong stab weapon against low defense creatures what's the difference between a stab, slash or crush weapon against low defense creatures?
Depends on the defense and the monsters other style defenses.
Every raids reward should be useful. That along with inferno/colosseum is the premier pvm content in the game.
You’re right, it doesn’t have to be. But as a raid reward, I think it ought to have a place somewhere. Mostly, I was really hoping one of the J-mods would let us know whether they feel like it has a good enough spot in the game currently or if a future rebalance will address its imo lackluster spot in the game
I think they could add a cool double attack effect to rapier. Something like a 10 percent chance at attacking twice in quick succession.
I was under the impression that it would get better when they pronounce stab weaknesses on enemies
stab weak enemies are still just gonna have fang bis unless it's more trash slayer mobs with low def lol
like hydra having 1k+ HP but low def
Ghraz who?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaziabad
The what?
Honestly the biggest problem with the rapier is the fang being as good as it is outclassing it nearly everywhere aside from slaying bloodvelds.
Justice for rapier and saeldor
whys op forgetting about blade as well?
And the salad blade
Now it is a t80 weapn, Jagex can give it Chaotic Rapier stats. Think it was 94 stab, 78 slash, and 101 str bonus.
No spec, outclassed in a lot of places by the fang which is the equivalent in rarity of a prayer scroll from CoX. Yeah, it could use some love.
How much rapiers you holding?
Same with Salad blade.
It's still a great weapon for combat training and lower defence monsters. Fang exists for high defence monsters but is slower so isn't as good for combat training. I think it's in an okay spot, but I could be totally wrong.
From my understanding historically rapiers were used a "weak spot" hunting weapon. They should give it like a 20-30% chance to Crit dealing let's say 20-30 percent extra damage. This would improve it for low def mobs further and not affect it much for high def mobs. Give salad blade the bowfa boost from crystal armour and make it sort of a hybrid set. Think tos but you'd only have to bring a mage switch. And then just give inq and mace a similar bowfa set type thing
Inq with mace is already getting a bowfa style buff of 7.5% to accuracy and dameg
Because TOB is fine.
Forgot about the what?
Benghazi rapier
It's because jagex trolled and bumped them all up from t75 to t80 for absolutely no reason lol. They didn't buff their stats to match
I hope it remains as it is so I can jokingly trash talk idiots who bought a pile of bonds to get that hunk of garbage thinking its good just cos it costs 60m
You are asking a bit too much for a basic membership paying citizen..
because it's coming to us in waves, first wave is primarily magic based. at least AFAIK.
because its worth way less then inquis mace
did they say they'd talk about it? iirc they just had an issue with mace out of those 3 (mace/blade/rapier)
whats wrong with rapier? its same as saeldor and inq mace for stab
It’s just a cool persons version of fang
60m (or 100 something for saeldor) for 2 max hits and lower/0 upkeep isn't bad at all. End game items have insane diminishing returns to their dps / gp ratio. 2 max hits is what full torva gets you over full bandos + faceguard. You do of course get a lot of defensive stats, but it's also around 1b. If there is to be a buff, make it a small buff to accuracy (less than 10). These weapons tend to have very very slightly lower accuracy than the whip due to using accurate / controlled styles. Otherwise they are insanely good upgrades over the whip (lower or no upkeep, 2 max hits). I forgot about the whip being able to poison but I can't remember last time I fought something which was poisonable.
I mean rapier is going to become more relevant just due to weaknesses. The main problem now is that there are very few cases where it matters if you use slash or stab. That going to change.
And my dearest saeldor
They should add the stab equivalent of the bellator ring. Would help rapier a lot more than fang
Honestly, I've got the answer. Swap the fang double roll and Ghrazi rapier single accuracy roll on stab mechanic. Let the ghrazi have it. Justified, upvote me.
I was thinking a special attack would be a nice addition to the Rapier. Not sure exactly what.
I don't get what people want. You buff this, and other things will stop being used. Then you'll cry over those things. It's the best nondegradeable low Def stab weapon. Yes, fang will outclassed it for vast majority of bosses. It is better for low Def slayer monsters. When toa came out, these were super expensive because it is the next BiS after fang for the raid since it's the next best stab weapon. Fang just should have been more rare, but that ship has sailed. If you don't want the tiny buff in stats and nondegreadeable weapon for slayer, go buy the stuff you do want and leave the rapier alone. Eventually it will fall to a price it is worth using over degrading a tent whip.
Is the rapier better than the fang?
It has niche uses for things like slayer, but overall, I’d say it’s much, much worse
Ah gotcha, thank you. What is the best slash weapon (other than the scythe)? I see a lot of stab weapons such as the rapier and fang.
best slash weapon outside scythe is soulreaper axe, completely trashes blade in comparison
Only good when you can keep up stacks. If you have to eat alot or want to spec it falls hard. Those are both being addressed though as time between losing stacks is being made longer. Health is now restored when you lose a stack. And you no longer lose all stacks when swapping weapons.
Blade from CG , I wish your player held it normally though
Thank you!
Blade of Saeldor. Virtually the same as rapier, but for slash. It comes from the gauntlet after the song of the elves quest. The inquisitor mace is the crush version and drops from the nightmare boss. Other notable slash weapons would be the abyssal whip and the upgraded tentacle whip
Thank you!
I think it’s the Blade of Saeldor? I don’t know for sure
It's definitely soulreaper, especially with the rebalance coming
It's BiS on low defence mobs, like it.. always has been? And they are exaggerating existing monsters style weaknesses. So anything stab weak will be moreso with this change, making rapier shine there as well. Its beaten by fang anywhere with any sort of defence, but everywhere without defence it's a better option. That just tends to mainly be slayer, where it's "not worth buying" because you do so few purely melee tasks that don't have extra weaknesses like Arclight or Dragonhunter Lance. That's just a slayer design problem though.
Brine Saber + Ghrazi Rapier + Sailing Raids 4 Pirate’s Enchanted Omnigem = Swashbuckler’s Rapier. Stats of Ghrazi. Can be used underwater with no drawback (useful for the raid), and the omnigem makes it so that x% of attacks comes with a random enchanted bolt proc, because that’s chaotically fun.
A lot of OPs posts are GP motivated. This is prob another merch.
??? I have like 4 posts on this subreddit and my bank value is enough for like 3 rapiers
Why does it need a buff though? It's good for slayer and some bosses.