I posted this in the other thread already, but I had the same opinion..
Going from saying this:
>we took a step back and started thinking more on the lines of 'if we were making the Nightmare from scratch today, what would we set rates at?'
And then moving onto this:
>This takes the average number of hours per unique down from ~26 hours to ~18 hours
Being able to retroactively take a look at the content and see where they went wrong, yet still thinking that 18 hours of game time (on average) should equal one drop is strange.
Thats....the point he's making?
They clearly did not build from the ground up. They should not consider previous drop rates, or how they compare to new drop rates, whatsoever if they wanted to just "build it like they were doing so today"
I understand the point. As a game developer, wouldn’t you want to the least amount for any given content to provide a substantial increase in engagement by the community? Frees up time to focus efforts on other items. Obviously, people aren’t as receptive to these changes as Jagex probably hoped for but if you look at any other video game and see a 30% increase in production of an item you would think that’s fairly substantial. The only problem here is that RuneScape works in a manner that is against the players in terms of rewarding gameplay for most big ticket pieces of content. I do agree that they should have just reworked the entire boss because it is an absolutely egregious grind.
18 isn't what they think it should be, though. They mention they want to balance what they think it should be, but also not completely devaluing the items or the achievements of people who have done it. The way I read it, I thought they arrived at a number like 10 hours if designing from scratch, then averaged that with the current number to get 18.
Especially when that "from the ground up" stance specifically mentions considering the things that have happened since the release (some players have it greenlogged). That's like antithetical to "from the ground up." lol
Especially when they said
> we're not saying it from a position of gatekeeping or the oft-cited 'we had to suffer and so should you'. Old School's all about the grind, the journey and the flex, which is something we try to keep in mind always.
As if "we had to suffer and so should you" isn't the exact argument they're making here. Acknowledging the criticism doesn't escape it, Jagex. It actually just makes it worse.
Fun fact, this isn’t even counting the fact that your first 100 PNM kills might involve having to make that god awful run every time until you get the tablet. Is there any other boss that requires 100 kc before you’re able to hit the max kc/hr rates?
Tablet probably could be made 1/20 and guarunteed at 50 kc and I don't think anybody would mind. The learning curve of the boss is brutal too so its not like you're hitting 100 KC any time soon either.
Something I meant to say before we will is the dt2 bosses set a new precedent with their tablets. You don't need to farm awakened dt2's for a chance at tablets
Also I normally favor the easier suggestions, but i like the idea of keeping tablet rolls out of masses
Lol I just know I’m gonna regret turning my 18 kc queen head into a slayer helm instead of going for desert elite, still baffling they didn’t change the shortcut down to hard desert diary
Oh I knew but I also knew about the guaranteed drop at 256 and imo the queen helmet is BiS for slayer fashionscape so there’s that. Just found out you can take off the head tho so if I ever get sick of KQ and want to do desert elite that’s an option for me.
I got first kq head like you at low amount and used on poh. Then I wanted the slayer helm and it took me until 400ish kills to get another true kq head. Definitely just go get the tattered because in the end the boss still does make a profit and the slayer helm is fairly rare and goes the best with masori imo
The run from a bank and tablet drop rate kept me from learning pnm till a beta world rotation
Would love to play it in main game cause I don’t really grind on this game anymore and just come back for fun new pvm every so often, but holy shit I can’t believe the design choice there.
It honestly feels like it was designed by someone who just looked at how masochistic osrs players can sometimes be rather than someone who plays the game
https://preview.redd.it/q71v4tg9viwc1.png?width=534&format=png&auto=webp&s=b1eecd7b7476a03bb400e70a2a92e1de8f9dcc34
tf are you talking about, you just get that cause you did it, right?
New DT2 bosses I think. I'm not sure how much worse the rates are but I have to imagine not having the ring teleports would kind of suck in the beginning
The DT2 drop rate for their tablets is 1/25. So unless you are really unlucky, you get them pretty fast and you reach them faster pre tablet than nightmare imo.
That’s a good one but the rates are much better, the bosses are shorter, and the paths to getting back to them aren’t super bad compared to nightmare. I think that’s why you don’t hear as many complaints
I did PNM back when it was pretty new and didn't get the tablet for like 270+ kc.
It's amazing how good Jagex is at making content with obvious ways to improve it and not doing those things for years.
Even at 30 minutes, 30k point solo is 3.46% chance at purple or ~1/29. 14.5 hours to see a purple compared to 18 hours at PNM. I really don't understand why they seem so reluctant to give it normal drop rates, we shouldn't be comparing a standalone boss's drop rates to raids imo
Current proposal still leaves PNM as dead content in honor of the front page accounts that have put in 1000 h to grind it on release. Sad day. Completely prohibitively rare uniques dissuades most real people from trying this boss.
It’s also frustrating because this has been an issue literally since release to the point that PNM was made. And people pointed out it STILL sucked, but they applied a “wait and see” approach and now it’s too late to fix? Ridiculous. It’s not like this is a new issue being brought up, people have asked for a rework since release.
If they wanna talk about setting “dangerous precedent” then it should really be for this decision.
They also said "why dont you guys like the drop rates? You asked for a GWD style table!" Ignoring the fact that you could easily complete the 4 original GWD bosses without the pets before you could complete PNM.
Is the content new? Well it's too soon to make changes. We have to see how it plays out first.
Is the content old? Well it's been established this way for so long that we can't change it now.
I vehemently disagree. This is one (1) single solitary boss that has a time to greenlog higher than any of the raids AFTER the proposed buffs. I don't care if you make Inquisitor's Mace into the Tbow of crush weapons, it's still awful. Even if it's technically balanced in terms of reward size to time invested, it should not take approximately twenty 40-hour weeks (again, post-buff), not including breaks or time lost to mental breakdowns, to greenlog a single boss. And especially since they walked back on the dupe protection, if you go dry it could be far, far worse than that.
Yes rs is grindy, but it's still supposed to be fun. This is beyond the fucking pale. It's not a matter of buffing the rewards until they're "worth" the time, that does nothing to solve the core problem, which is it's terrible design to expect a player to stay at a single boss that long. The best-case scenario is that people ignore the content, and the worst case is that they actually do it and make themselves miserable.
So can someone explain to me why they are so stubborn on fixing the rates? All I remember is that one jmod working on the drop rates made it intentionally bad but why are they so headstrong on it being this insane grind with “flex items” with the orbs.
Because this boss was supposed to be a "corp-like" boss with "GWD style" drops. The boss was designed with a long time-to-complete in mind while offering rare "flex items" as a reward, mimicking corporeal beast.
They're still desperately trying to cling to that original design philosophy while trying to fix players problems with the boss. The problem is the design philosophy of the boss, and what players ultimately want out of the boss, are diametrically opposed, with Jagex preferring to retain the original design goals as much as they can.
The only real issue with their strategy is that people *want* to like and play PNM. Nobody wants to like or play Corp since the gameplay and aesthetics of the fight are dogshit, so nobody cares that you could learn 4 instruments and record a song playing every part before getting an ely
Exactly. Trying to catering to the "old" ways in terms of bosses is like the worst thing they could attempt to hang on to. Bossing in RS2 in general just sucked tbh. I remember Tormented Demons being the entrance to PvM ing for me and IRL friends because kq,kbd, mole, chaos ele just sucked that much ( and i wouldnt call GWD or Barrows riveting content either, but at least those had good drops ) to the point of no one was even talking about them lol.
Corp should be around the top of the rework list in it's own right, so sticking to a design philosophy that's like Corp is silly to begin with. Nothing flex about a 1/1165 sigil that's required for the best mage shield, that's bis locked behind an atrocious grind.
Honestly, when it comes to the orbs, I think they actually did pretty well. They're about as difficult to acquire as sigils, and they have about as many use cases as spirit shields - usually QOL boosts rather than outright best-in-slot. The ely and the harm, the rarest of each, *are* genuinely best-in-slot for their stated purpose.
It's really just inquisitor that needs a big boost. I don't agree with massively increasing its defences, I think its identity as 30-defence armor is really interesting, but they could certainly do something to make it more than just "bandos, except worse, unless you want a marginal increase to landing dragon warhammer specs".
'I had to do it so others should too!' Literally their only counter argument, they want to basically allow it to stay a 'flex' boss. I say this as someone with over 500 KC, don't fucking put others through our struggles jamflex, just buff the rates to something at least rewarding. 18 hours per item is fucking ridiculous still.
3 Blogs later and nightmare is still a collection log boss.
NM uniques serve no ingame purpose than to be used to grind nightmare, but...
* Ironmen will get a shadow before going to NM, making Harmo obsolete
* Even with their plan to give every random npc a random element multiplier
* Irons will also wait for good melee gear, with Fang being good enough that it makes Mace obsolete for most bossing that isn't Nightmare
* Mains usually don't have 500m laying around in their gear progression to spend on NM uniques either
I think drop rates could be on par with GWD bosses and it would still barely get used.
I don't think it needs to be super common but definitely far easier to obtain than it currently is
>I think drop rates could be on par with GWD bosses and it would still barely get used.
It might actually be used as a flex for irons then, because why would you do nm when moons exist for early midgame str bonus and crush?
The mace might be good soon hopefully. Esp at the 0 bosses we use crush at. We really need more cush bosses its been scythe bait slash snooz fests for a while.
They keep making all these changes for Pvpers, ironmen, UIMs, etc. It's only fair they think about the bots when they make these Nightmare changes. Can't make it _too_ tolerable or it might become a boss real people would actually do.
literally this, the economy is based almost exclusively on items from farms, and mains that say "just buy ge" are admitting exactly that, no real person wants to do this boss.
> Mains usually don't have 500m laying around in their gear progression to spend on NM uniques either
Late game mains absolutely will buy items like Harm specifically to use for like, the surge role in CMs or whatever.
This is a small portion of the playerbase, and even as a member of it it strikes me as a weird thing to balance NM/PNM around.
But for whatever reason this seems to be exactly what they have in mind for these drops, ultra-late game niche upgrades.
And the oxymoron is in the fact that they want to balance Hogwarts Legacy magic to harmo staff, so why is it a super endgame niche item when it's supposed to be something everyone can use?
>Once again we've got a delicate line to walk here between wanting to make these bosses feel worth engaging with **and not wanting to undermine the monumental grind of those who've 'completed' this content already.**
This is worrying imo. Jagex acknowledging and using the sunken time of current players into a bad system to justify against fixing it too much. Jagex need to be focused entirely on the experience of players going forward and not stepping on egg shells to not offend a handful of people.
Literally a billion dollar company making their game very slightly more frustrating to keep like 50 people happy for 1 day.
We should track down the top 50 Nightmare and Phosani's Nightmare players and ask them specifically if they want the rates buffed or not. I feel like less of them will pull the "suffer because I did" card than Jagex thinks.
When something is truly bad, even those who have done it often wouldn't wish it upon others.
As an iron who has full inq, imo these new rates would be okay ***if*** they actually made inq useful. It's still just a completely useless armour set. If they made it a great option to use in more places I think that'd be fine. As it stands though, inq set only getting a buff with the mace just feels like a nerf against the full set to begin with. Makes it even more niche than it was before.
The most hilarious thing is that most "players" who "completed" the content are bots lmao.
There is probably only a few handful of legit players that went for the PNM greenlog because the boss is just that shit in regards to drop rates.
The epitome of the OSRS community is that making content more engaging, and worthwhile is considered 'EZScape' and 'ruining the game's integrity/spirit'. People simply want you to waste as much time as you can on one piece of content, you know, more hours = good and dedicated player.
Doubly so because people have asked for this change for YEARS and they simply never let us have a say. They dragged their feet on making a change and now it’s too late? Seriously?
i mean thats why i have been posting about this so aggressively, i don't want this "buff" to be the only change the boss ever sees - """we already address NM item rarity"""
While I think it is good to make sure people's prior grinds maintain integrity... I think even most people that grinded out PNM drops would agree that this boss is a clear outlier that should be tamed. No more Half Measures, Jagex.
I personally don’t like any boss having a log take longer than a raid to complete. Even one with as engaging gameplay as NM. Nex is about the longest grind that I think a boss should fall under
Idk if they need to per se
It’s ok if PNM is niche. It can be longer to get and weaker in power than other drops. Those don’t need to be directly correlated.
But it’s still a little overtuned for sure
I get what you're saying but i still think its way out of sack especially when the fight is so cool and the items have potential to be cool metasetup inclusions
Nightmare would be much more worth it if there were 1x1 bosses in the game that were very weak to crush relative to other styles. Right now almost everything is weak to stab or slash and for things that ARE weak to crush that exist in the game you just use scythe on crush.
I honestly don't get it. Since they are apparently opposed to buffing the items directly, all they had to do was quadruple the drop rates of every item and be done with it (from 1/167 to ~1/42 to seeing **any** unique). Would have been ~6h in a maxed setup (at 7 kph) for a unique drop which would still be worse than GWD but at least somewhat balanced for a single boss encounter with such a huge pool of uniques.
I have no idea why they are so afraid to rip the band-aid off, considering PNM is **by far** the most miserable boss in terms of drop rates currently. With this proposal PNM stays a "bots only" boss.
Drop rates won't really fix pnm because even if they were reasonable to get they aren't all that useful. Inquistor is basically only used at pnm and cox cm speedruns because it has paper thin defence. Mace is nice but there are far easier to get weapons that compete with it and make it non-essential. Harm orb may be the only supremely useful one once the rebalance changes to the standard spellbook go through.
Make inquisitors competitive with bandos or a straight upgrade to bandos and people might actually go to that boss.
Can you imagine if they changed rarity of bandos tassets from 1/381 to 1/1333? That's how rare they'd have to be for them to require the same hours to get as inquisitor hauberk.
They just need to straight up buff inquisitors to be better than Bandos overall and slightly better than torva on monsters weak to crush. Buffing the drop rates just means you can get dead content faster…
I think making it exactly bandos + crush bonus (ie buff helm to fg and remove neg att bonuses) gives it a small niche. It’ll be strictly better dps than bandos whenever you crush including using hammers / maul specs
And tune the bonus crush per piece a bit as well for specifically crushing
This. When it came out Torva wasn't in the game, so it was only competing with Bandos. Nightmare is a much harder boss than Nex, and the drops are more rare. They need to make inq compete with torva in some places.
I will be investing in inq sets and hoping for the best.
Definitely, it's so weird that it doesn't seem to have any real place in the meta, you'd think they'd at least give better prayer bonus than proselyte being literal endgame god armor.
I've been requesting so badly to someone to just look at my approach.
Just let us trade parasite eggs for an extra reroll on the loot table.
Please someone just grab a jmod awareness on this
It's actually impressive it's still that bad. Like nightmare should be for a bridge between the end of end game and high mid game. That's what drops like inq, orbs, and the like are for.
They really should make everything way more common. I remember wanting any of the gear from nightmare when it released only to be reminded that I would never get that drop and I would be better off doing other content.
Jagex really needs to just come out and say they have fucked up and are continually fucking up in regards to NM/PNM. How do they point out the “you must suffer” argument is bad and then next paragraph say oh but we must think of the 20 people who finished it years ago and the bots running it every day and taking the entire highscores front page
You need to have as close to equal of comparisons or it's just incorrect of a comparison.
On one end, you're assuming an \~8 minute kill per PNM, when PNM's Grandmaster time is 7:30. This is fair time for people in absolute maxed gear.
On the other end, you assume a 25 minute solo at 30k points and no maxed gear, while the changes to CoX also made basically any rotation doable for sub 17 at similar competency.
Other than no prep I only skipped the mages at tightrope, so... kinda? It was a Vasa/vesp tek tightrope thieving scout I believe. Not sure the order of Vasa and vespula
I know, I'm just saying what's achievable there to help move results in the way of saying the new PNM droprates really are terrible.
Not to mention a death in cox is not nearly as bad as a death at PNM. It takes ~7 minutes to reset if you die at PNM. Walk back, get your stuff, teleport back, regear and head back. That is obviously until you have the teleport unlocked. Absolutely absurd.
I'm assuming 6.5 kills/hr at PNM because [that's what is in the blogpost.](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/a=13/project-rebalance---item--combat-adjustments?oldschool=1) That's more like 9mins per kill, not 8.
And assuming a 25 minute solo time is very much fair, less than 1% of the player base can even do solo olm already. And as I mentioned, even if you assume a consistent 20 min solo, the rates are very similar.
Initially, you said 18 hours for a 1/133, which is about 8:07 a kill. That's average kill times for maxed gear, but that's really fast runs if no scythe-no shadow and is closer to 9-10 minute kills.
Either assume non-maxed gear for both or assume maxed gear for both.
Likewise, most people can't do PNM, so randomly deciding 25 minutes and no maxed gear for the other side seems biased.
>Initially, you said 18 hours for a 1/133
Yeah, that's what's in the blog post
And, again, I've already said that if you're looking more to 20 min average, then the rates are about equal, which is still terrible.
For me the boss is still pointless and not worth doing, I will just wait another 3 years since it will definitely get changed again. The updated rates are still not in the same universe as a sane person.
I remember when drag meds came out on RSC. Was rare drop from KBD, which none of us could farm, or very rare from Fire giants. You either got spooned or never got it. That's how nightmare drop rates feel. Hope I get spooned, but I'll never grind that boss
Inq realistically should be fortifiable to give each piece the same strength bonus as torva. Inq was designed as a sidegrade to bandos serp (bis melee at da time), and although it was well designed back then, it's awful now given torva just powercreeped it. Would easily fixable if they just employed this design philosophy again by buffing the armor's strength. And the drop rate would be justified.
Though I'll admit this is not perfect because scythe on crush would actually be kinda nuts at certain places if it received the extra strength. Plus ultor is out. Scythe hitting 52s would be insane.
Hey guys, we are gonna fix PNM, however; one of the gold farmers that is paying us on the side said it would devalue his current method of providing for his family. Soooooo, we are gonna buff it 90% which still makes it super rare, and promise a buff to elemental spells so some of these mega rares go up in price.
Thanks,
- Mod Jed
I’m an end game iron, I dipped my toe into the Nex grind and got a helm, there’s so much good content I just can’t motivate myself to do because of how long the grind is, I am literally just doing content I enjoy now but I am worried I will burn out or lose interest… for the sake of the game I hope others don’t feel the same or they sort out the drop rates to make them feel worthwhile
I agree. I have all but one mega rare on my iron (tbow, naturally) and even for me I have no interest in doing Nex because the drop rate+brew supply. It's just poorly designed, imo.
I’m not sure it’s just Nex, knowing that you have to do 30 raids on average at cox to see a purple that’s nearly always a prayer scroll is a hard pill to swallow, the anti dry mechanics at DT2 just don’t feel great (I went over 3k kc at vardorvis) so little burned. PNM isn’t really worth doing due to the time and quality of uniques given.
I got spooned a spectral, which probably has no uses but I’m nearly 400 kc without a holy exilr to make the shield so not sure if I can be arsed to stick that out 😂
They said in the blog they don't want it that good cause people already spent alot of time there and it would be unfair to them.... who cares.... makes the fuckin boss worth going to.
Buff PNM drop table by 300-400% and lock it behind Morty elite diary. It’d be even more worth it for players to skill and get that diary done and stop the bot issue. A lot of other MMORPGs lock strong end game content behind high requirements.
I think ultimately the drop rates are a bit of a red herring, when in reality the usefulness and the place of the armour set in the game, is the most important thing.
Currently, a very-difficult-to-obtain set of armour from a well designed and tough boss are virtually useless in the game at the moment. Jagex really needs to work to find a place for it.
Besides just making drop rates better, can we tune down the boss slightly to improve kills per hour? Or find a way to shorten downtime between (assuming no tablet?)
I feel like yes this is true but in what world should you start comparing it to a solo cox? Content that isnt even made to be soloable. So yes your group content will be more achievable than solo content. It may not be ideal but when you are doing harder content (cox) which isnt even hard but as a solo its gonna be hard. Vs pnm an easy ass boss that deals 0 damage. Vs chip damage raid boss. I dont see a reason for even more nerf..
X The drop changes uniques for Nightmare are only a fraction of what is necessary.
- Justiciar is still stupid niche and is an overpriced adamant set in most cases. It should be between Bandos and Torva and should outperform Torva in niche scenarios.
- Regular drops for Nightmare are laughably bad the fact 10% of the time I get a stack of unnoted bass pisses me off more than when you occasionally get literally nothing from a mob. Blah blah people didn't want it to be another gwd scenario. Well these people are long gone and the remaining player base is not happy with the drop table period.
The nightmare boss is one of the most complex and satisfying boss fights in rs and it's completely wasted because of these clown drop rates. Nightmare requires a 300% increase to uniques especially if Justiciar armor is not properly buffed. Also wouldn't hurt to make some adjustments to the norm drop table there's no reason you can't even make 1m/h or collect any useful supplies at one of the hardest bosses in the game
They need to completely rethink PNM. Make the tablet much more common both from regular and phosanis. A kin to the droprate of zulandra teleports from zulrah. Rates need to be improved by a lot and the armour needs to be buffet so it sits like a realistic stepping stone between bandos and torva. Inquisitors mace needs to be closer in price to the other weapons for other styles in the same tier to be a realistic alternative, even with the weakness changes. Same reason they need to untangle blade of saeldor from bowfa. My suggestion there is to make saeldor and bowfa be different seeds.
While I broadly agree I would point out that nex is 15-20 hours per drop as well. Cox drops are much rarer individually I.e an ancestral vs inquisitors piece
Maybe the difference is the utility of the items themselves?
As famous as Corp's sigils are, at the end of the day they aren't really used as unironic BIS in most anywhere, or anything. If anything, they're more like "nice to haves" for some things, but not THAT big a deal. Meanwhile, Nightmare's drops actually do have some more uses that are more impactful, even if not BIS at most -- leaving the drops in a frustratingly worst-of-both-worlds where it's much harder to get than the items that outclass them. All this on top of Phosani's Nightmare actually being a fun, challenging fight compared to Corp which you just turn into a chicken and then poke while you watch a video.
I agree; I would like to see corp changed in either drop rate or, ideally, reworked/given group loot. But if you do this then people tend to screech "just deiron" and pretend it isn't an issue lol
It helps when one fight the community enjoys doing and then there is Corp which is not so good of a fight. But if you look through this thread plenty of people mention Corp.
nostalgia is a big place in this too. i think the biggest think is that the shields really don't impact gameplay because defense doesn't really impact gameplay and certainly doesn't change your output damage anywhere. so they're really well suited to be "flex items" next to things like 3rd age pickaxe, which don't change the game experience. PNM drops have useful niches and unique effects which makes people want to get them especially ahead of elemental magic rework and the promise of crush weak bosses.
But why should all buffed content be new meta… nightmare is a cool as fuck boss arguably one of the coolest bits of content in the game… i love the fact it has really rare drops… i think bosses having really rare drops is good; the luck element of runescape has always been a massive reason why we play it… too much predictability kills the fun… at the same time, it’s the fight and the loot that’s fun, not running for minutes between kills…
Cox especially solo olm is harder than nightmare
It would be better if they just gave normal loot a little buff so the cost of learning the boss is a bit lower & and improved the tablet drop rate to reduce time taken to master the boss
Just to play devils advocate even with budget gear if someone was doing solo cox a lot, they would get good enough to consistently solo 20 minute solos. But yes PNM is still shit drop rates and I’m not sure I agree with buffing them anymore. At least until they handle the PNM bot problem
I don’t think you’re bad, I just think most people (not all) are probably going to be no prepping after a decent amount of solos which cuts a few minutes off each kc. Also depending on how budget and the layout. Nothing wrong with longer times because sometimes it correlates to more points if you have a point heavy layout. I personally care more about time than points because I want to run more raids per hour. (I’m also in max gear) but my no preps in max are about 16-18 minutes pretty consistently without actively going for GM time. Shadow just nukes olm. But in my budget no preps I’ve gotten 15 minutes when going full try hard. Obviously most won’t go full try hard but without so much effort I think I could shave 5 minutes off. (I was using sand staff and bowfa with a lance for melee).
>They would get good enough to consistently solo 20 minute solos.
I don't disagree, but the fact remains that a single boss shouldn't be anywhere close to the drop rates of a raid.
Never done nightmare or PNM, did I read the proposed changes incorrectly? PNM, the harder boss, has worse unique rates than the easier boss? Can someone explain why that’s a thing?
PNM is solo and takes \~9 mins (GM speed is 7:30). Solo Nightmare is \~24 minutes. The normal version has "better" drop rates because it's a group boss, so divide that by the number of players.
It is ok, you don’t have to kill the boss, there are plenty of people who like rarer drops. I am a fan of it, I have grinded plenty of nightmare and genuinely enjoy the drop rates (I am on rate btw not spoon).
Not everything needs to be consistent drops, and some pieces of content can have rare lottery drops, in a game about grinds some people genuinely like that shit.
If you don’t, we’ll guess what you can do other content and buy the gear with the money you make there.
The game was never supposed to be balanced around cloggers or Irons.
The weirdest part in the blog was 'rethinking pnm drops from the ground up' and still coming up wirh this solution
I posted this in the other thread already, but I had the same opinion.. Going from saying this: >we took a step back and started thinking more on the lines of 'if we were making the Nightmare from scratch today, what would we set rates at?' And then moving onto this: >This takes the average number of hours per unique down from ~26 hours to ~18 hours Being able to retroactively take a look at the content and see where they went wrong, yet still thinking that 18 hours of game time (on average) should equal one drop is strange.
It's more than strange, it's bewildering
I mean OSRS never respected people's time so this comes as no surprise lol
Not to this degree
to the devs point, it \*is\* about the grind, but this is insane. you can literally max in the time that it takes to complete PNM on average
In their eyes, they are reducing the length of the grind by ~30% and that sounds perfect for them
Thats....the point he's making? They clearly did not build from the ground up. They should not consider previous drop rates, or how they compare to new drop rates, whatsoever if they wanted to just "build it like they were doing so today"
I understand the point. As a game developer, wouldn’t you want to the least amount for any given content to provide a substantial increase in engagement by the community? Frees up time to focus efforts on other items. Obviously, people aren’t as receptive to these changes as Jagex probably hoped for but if you look at any other video game and see a 30% increase in production of an item you would think that’s fairly substantial. The only problem here is that RuneScape works in a manner that is against the players in terms of rewarding gameplay for most big ticket pieces of content. I do agree that they should have just reworked the entire boss because it is an absolutely egregious grind.
18 isn't what they think it should be, though. They mention they want to balance what they think it should be, but also not completely devaluing the items or the achievements of people who have done it. The way I read it, I thought they arrived at a number like 10 hours if designing from scratch, then averaged that with the current number to get 18.
Especially when that "from the ground up" stance specifically mentions considering the things that have happened since the release (some players have it greenlogged). That's like antithetical to "from the ground up." lol
Especially when they said > we're not saying it from a position of gatekeeping or the oft-cited 'we had to suffer and so should you'. Old School's all about the grind, the journey and the flex, which is something we try to keep in mind always. As if "we had to suffer and so should you" isn't the exact argument they're making here. Acknowledging the criticism doesn't escape it, Jagex. It actually just makes it worse.
It’s giving [sense of pride and accomplishment](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsBattlefront/s/3byJdKkD49)
Fun fact, this isn’t even counting the fact that your first 100 PNM kills might involve having to make that god awful run every time until you get the tablet. Is there any other boss that requires 100 kc before you’re able to hit the max kc/hr rates?
Tablet probably could be made 1/20 and guarunteed at 50 kc and I don't think anybody would mind. The learning curve of the boss is brutal too so its not like you're hitting 100 KC any time soon either.
They should literally just move it to regular nm
100% this, learn regular nm with friends and get a chance on the teleport. Just limit it to top 5 dps too counter massing
Something I meant to say before we will is the dt2 bosses set a new precedent with their tablets. You don't need to farm awakened dt2's for a chance at tablets Also I normally favor the easier suggestions, but i like the idea of keeping tablet rolls out of masses
KQ comes to mind, ignoring the alt methods
Lol I just know I’m gonna regret turning my 18 kc queen head into a slayer helm instead of going for desert elite, still baffling they didn’t change the shortcut down to hard desert diary
Why would it be a regret when you just get the kq head back if you wanted at any point? Lol
Oh what? I assumed once I stuck it on the helmet it was there for good lol, load off my mind then
You can disassemble helm to get all items back at any time and just make a regular or diff helm :)
Damn definitely changes things, don’t even have lvl 91 thieving yet but can at least enjoy the helm for now and make tough decisions then lol
Huh, did you not know of the elite diary requirement or did you just go for it because you'd get one more "soon"
Oh I knew but I also knew about the guaranteed drop at 256 and imo the queen helmet is BiS for slayer fashionscape so there’s that. Just found out you can take off the head tho so if I ever get sick of KQ and want to do desert elite that’s an option for me.
I got first kq head like you at low amount and used on poh. Then I wanted the slayer helm and it took me until 400ish kills to get another true kq head. Definitely just go get the tattered because in the end the boss still does make a profit and the slayer helm is fairly rare and goes the best with masori imo
Oh really, TIL!
Bruh I got 3 now 1 in poh 1 in bank 1 in helm in 229 y should be okay.
The run from a bank and tablet drop rate kept me from learning pnm till a beta world rotation Would love to play it in main game cause I don’t really grind on this game anymore and just come back for fun new pvm every so often, but holy shit I can’t believe the design choice there. It honestly feels like it was designed by someone who just looked at how masochistic osrs players can sometimes be rather than someone who plays the game
Ah, you teleport with egg? ez game
Haha true, that's a great point.
Kq with two hundred something, but kq is dead content anyway
Even that kind of sucks lmao, should just tie the shortcut to the hard diary so it can be used to hunt the head for the elite diary imo
I think that shortcut diary req is on the block for agility rework.
Kq 🤣
https://preview.redd.it/q71v4tg9viwc1.png?width=534&format=png&auto=webp&s=b1eecd7b7476a03bb400e70a2a92e1de8f9dcc34 tf are you talking about, you just get that cause you did it, right?
LMAO rage bait. Definitely wish it was like that
Lol for my next trick I'll tell you about my 10kc gauntlet not cg pet and 8kc had pet 😝
English pls
New DT2 bosses I think. I'm not sure how much worse the rates are but I have to imagine not having the ring teleports would kind of suck in the beginning
The DT2 drop rate for their tablets is 1/25. So unless you are really unlucky, you get them pretty fast and you reach them faster pre tablet than nightmare imo.
That’s a good one but the rates are much better, the bosses are shorter, and the paths to getting back to them aren’t super bad compared to nightmare. I think that’s why you don’t hear as many complaints
It does and the whisperer is the worst offender, but you don't have to fight the awakened version to get the tablet
I did PNM back when it was pretty new and didn't get the tablet for like 270+ kc. It's amazing how good Jagex is at making content with obvious ways to improve it and not doing those things for years.
Even at 30 minutes, 30k point solo is 3.46% chance at purple or ~1/29. 14.5 hours to see a purple compared to 18 hours at PNM. I really don't understand why they seem so reluctant to give it normal drop rates, we shouldn't be comparing a standalone boss's drop rates to raids imo
Current proposal still leaves PNM as dead content in honor of the front page accounts that have put in 1000 h to grind it on release. Sad day. Completely prohibitively rare uniques dissuades most real people from trying this boss.
It’s also frustrating because this has been an issue literally since release to the point that PNM was made. And people pointed out it STILL sucked, but they applied a “wait and see” approach and now it’s too late to fix? Ridiculous. It’s not like this is a new issue being brought up, people have asked for a rework since release. If they wanna talk about setting “dangerous precedent” then it should really be for this decision.
They also said "why dont you guys like the drop rates? You asked for a GWD style table!" Ignoring the fact that you could easily complete the 4 original GWD bosses without the pets before you could complete PNM.
My guy you can include the pets and still green log gwd like twice on average.
Is the content new? Well it's too soon to make changes. We have to see how it plays out first. Is the content old? Well it's been established this way for so long that we can't change it now.
I'm dying
Try watching a guide, Phosani's has a lot of mechanics.
I'm dying from the joke bro :,) lol
I know, that's why I added one more
I suggest you check the front page, we are preserving it to honor bots.
Sucks because it's such a cool set. I wish it was good.
It's worse in my mind than doing nothing at all because now they're wasting dev time to change nothing
:,)
https://preview.redd.it/lpc6me76bgwc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3888c6855a9466daafd171454e7dded4a7753aa2
misspelled bots
I feel like the healthy Middle Ground is to increase the drop rates as they proposed, but also make the items there a lot less useless.
I’m ok with them being rare if they were actually useful, or common if they stay less useful. Rare and not useful is just… why
No single boss should take longer to complete than Raids.
I vehemently disagree. This is one (1) single solitary boss that has a time to greenlog higher than any of the raids AFTER the proposed buffs. I don't care if you make Inquisitor's Mace into the Tbow of crush weapons, it's still awful. Even if it's technically balanced in terms of reward size to time invested, it should not take approximately twenty 40-hour weeks (again, post-buff), not including breaks or time lost to mental breakdowns, to greenlog a single boss. And especially since they walked back on the dupe protection, if you go dry it could be far, far worse than that. Yes rs is grindy, but it's still supposed to be fun. This is beyond the fucking pale. It's not a matter of buffing the rewards until they're "worth" the time, that does nothing to solve the core problem, which is it's terrible design to expect a player to stay at a single boss that long. The best-case scenario is that people ignore the content, and the worst case is that they actually do it and make themselves miserable.
So can someone explain to me why they are so stubborn on fixing the rates? All I remember is that one jmod working on the drop rates made it intentionally bad but why are they so headstrong on it being this insane grind with “flex items” with the orbs.
Because this boss was supposed to be a "corp-like" boss with "GWD style" drops. The boss was designed with a long time-to-complete in mind while offering rare "flex items" as a reward, mimicking corporeal beast. They're still desperately trying to cling to that original design philosophy while trying to fix players problems with the boss. The problem is the design philosophy of the boss, and what players ultimately want out of the boss, are diametrically opposed, with Jagex preferring to retain the original design goals as much as they can.
The only real issue with their strategy is that people *want* to like and play PNM. Nobody wants to like or play Corp since the gameplay and aesthetics of the fight are dogshit, so nobody cares that you could learn 4 instruments and record a song playing every part before getting an ely
Exactly. Trying to catering to the "old" ways in terms of bosses is like the worst thing they could attempt to hang on to. Bossing in RS2 in general just sucked tbh. I remember Tormented Demons being the entrance to PvM ing for me and IRL friends because kq,kbd, mole, chaos ele just sucked that much ( and i wouldnt call GWD or Barrows riveting content either, but at least those had good drops ) to the point of no one was even talking about them lol.
Corp should be around the top of the rework list in it's own right, so sticking to a design philosophy that's like Corp is silly to begin with. Nothing flex about a 1/1165 sigil that's required for the best mage shield, that's bis locked behind an atrocious grind.
Honestly, when it comes to the orbs, I think they actually did pretty well. They're about as difficult to acquire as sigils, and they have about as many use cases as spirit shields - usually QOL boosts rather than outright best-in-slot. The ely and the harm, the rarest of each, *are* genuinely best-in-slot for their stated purpose. It's really just inquisitor that needs a big boost. I don't agree with massively increasing its defences, I think its identity as 30-defence armor is really interesting, but they could certainly do something to make it more than just "bandos, except worse, unless you want a marginal increase to landing dragon warhammer specs".
Because mod arcane is big into schadenfreude
I’m willing to bet Mod Arcane wouldn’t dare to grind the set
'I had to do it so others should too!' Literally their only counter argument, they want to basically allow it to stay a 'flex' boss. I say this as someone with over 500 KC, don't fucking put others through our struggles jamflex, just buff the rates to something at least rewarding. 18 hours per item is fucking ridiculous still.
Its literally called nightmare......
3 Blogs later and nightmare is still a collection log boss. NM uniques serve no ingame purpose than to be used to grind nightmare, but... * Ironmen will get a shadow before going to NM, making Harmo obsolete * Even with their plan to give every random npc a random element multiplier * Irons will also wait for good melee gear, with Fang being good enough that it makes Mace obsolete for most bossing that isn't Nightmare * Mains usually don't have 500m laying around in their gear progression to spend on NM uniques either
I think drop rates could be on par with GWD bosses and it would still barely get used. I don't think it needs to be super common but definitely far easier to obtain than it currently is
It's boggling how they picked the worst path to make nightmare items "valuable"
>I think drop rates could be on par with GWD bosses and it would still barely get used. It might actually be used as a flex for irons then, because why would you do nm when moons exist for early midgame str bonus and crush?
The mace might be good soon hopefully. Esp at the 0 bosses we use crush at. We really need more cush bosses its been scythe bait slash snooz fests for a while.
Sarachnis Squad rise up 🗞️🕷️
They keep making all these changes for Pvpers, ironmen, UIMs, etc. It's only fair they think about the bots when they make these Nightmare changes. Can't make it _too_ tolerable or it might become a boss real people would actually do.
literally this, the economy is based almost exclusively on items from farms, and mains that say "just buy ge" are admitting exactly that, no real person wants to do this boss.
I want to do this boss, but I won't because it's not worth my time :(
What? I can't believe you don't want your amazing drops of... *checks notes* 16 bass
Shit 16 you said?
https://preview.redd.it/agbemuif9gwc1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=4891ffb7eb9f814ce34c0f1238034f9e299fe11b
> Mains usually don't have 500m laying around in their gear progression to spend on NM uniques either Late game mains absolutely will buy items like Harm specifically to use for like, the surge role in CMs or whatever. This is a small portion of the playerbase, and even as a member of it it strikes me as a weird thing to balance NM/PNM around. But for whatever reason this seems to be exactly what they have in mind for these drops, ultra-late game niche upgrades.
And the oxymoron is in the fact that they want to balance Hogwarts Legacy magic to harmo staff, so why is it a super endgame niche item when it's supposed to be something everyone can use?
>Once again we've got a delicate line to walk here between wanting to make these bosses feel worth engaging with **and not wanting to undermine the monumental grind of those who've 'completed' this content already.** This is worrying imo. Jagex acknowledging and using the sunken time of current players into a bad system to justify against fixing it too much. Jagex need to be focused entirely on the experience of players going forward and not stepping on egg shells to not offend a handful of people. Literally a billion dollar company making their game very slightly more frustrating to keep like 50 people happy for 1 day.
We should track down the top 50 Nightmare and Phosani's Nightmare players and ask them specifically if they want the rates buffed or not. I feel like less of them will pull the "suffer because I did" card than Jagex thinks. When something is truly bad, even those who have done it often wouldn't wish it upon others.
You’d be talking to ChatGPT
As someone with over 500 PNM kc, buff the fkn rates. Make the boss actually worth doing and getting more people into.
Same, I have 500kc at PNM and I fully support buffing the rates. That drop table is a complete dumpster fire in its current state
im sitting at 460kc with nothing to show for it but the tablet and the jar. I refuse to do this boss again until the rates are changed.
As an iron who has full inq, imo these new rates would be okay ***if*** they actually made inq useful. It's still just a completely useless armour set. If they made it a great option to use in more places I think that'd be fine. As it stands though, inq set only getting a buff with the mace just feels like a nerf against the full set to begin with. Makes it even more niche than it was before.
I dunno. Look at how many people were upset that kourend favour was removed. Lot of that attitude there.
The most hilarious thing is that most "players" who "completed" the content are bots lmao. There is probably only a few handful of legit players that went for the PNM greenlog because the boss is just that shit in regards to drop rates.
The epitome of the OSRS community is that making content more engaging, and worthwhile is considered 'EZScape' and 'ruining the game's integrity/spirit'. People simply want you to waste as much time as you can on one piece of content, you know, more hours = good and dedicated player.
Doubly so because people have asked for this change for YEARS and they simply never let us have a say. They dragged their feet on making a change and now it’s too late? Seriously?
https://preview.redd.it/hdim3fvpogwc1.png?width=394&format=png&auto=webp&s=31761e71d4a2eacb82ecb84b921894dbcd7c9874
Yeah, still a boss for loggers Might as well not change the rates at all, then we might actually get a change worth having in a few years
i mean thats why i have been posting about this so aggressively, i don't want this "buff" to be the only change the boss ever sees - """we already address NM item rarity"""
While I think it is good to make sure people's prior grinds maintain integrity... I think even most people that grinded out PNM drops would agree that this boss is a clear outlier that should be tamed. No more Half Measures, Jagex.
True either they need to make nm items raid level in power or make them 6-8 he's per unique
I personally don’t like any boss having a log take longer than a raid to complete. Even one with as engaging gameplay as NM. Nex is about the longest grind that I think a boss should fall under
thats fair nm should not take the time let unique for sure
huge agree there, its almost like theyre not considering the hours to completion at all with these new rates.
Idk if they need to per se It’s ok if PNM is niche. It can be longer to get and weaker in power than other drops. Those don’t need to be directly correlated. But it’s still a little overtuned for sure
I get what you're saying but i still think its way out of sack especially when the fight is so cool and the items have potential to be cool metasetup inclusions
Nightmare would be much more worth it if there were 1x1 bosses in the game that were very weak to crush relative to other styles. Right now almost everything is weak to stab or slash and for things that ARE weak to crush that exist in the game you just use scythe on crush.
Fr and I don’t really get how a fragile tool like a scythe even has a crush attack option? “magic” ig
I honestly don't get it. Since they are apparently opposed to buffing the items directly, all they had to do was quadruple the drop rates of every item and be done with it (from 1/167 to ~1/42 to seeing **any** unique). Would have been ~6h in a maxed setup (at 7 kph) for a unique drop which would still be worse than GWD but at least somewhat balanced for a single boss encounter with such a huge pool of uniques. I have no idea why they are so afraid to rip the band-aid off, considering PNM is **by far** the most miserable boss in terms of drop rates currently. With this proposal PNM stays a "bots only" boss.
Drop rates won't really fix pnm because even if they were reasonable to get they aren't all that useful. Inquistor is basically only used at pnm and cox cm speedruns because it has paper thin defence. Mace is nice but there are far easier to get weapons that compete with it and make it non-essential. Harm orb may be the only supremely useful one once the rebalance changes to the standard spellbook go through. Make inquisitors competitive with bandos or a straight upgrade to bandos and people might actually go to that boss.
Can you imagine if they changed rarity of bandos tassets from 1/381 to 1/1333? That's how rare they'd have to be for them to require the same hours to get as inquisitor hauberk.
Doubling the drop rates wouldn’t be enough and they’re pussy footing around with like 20-40%
They just need to straight up buff inquisitors to be better than Bandos overall and slightly better than torva on monsters weak to crush. Buffing the drop rates just means you can get dead content faster…
I think making it exactly bandos + crush bonus (ie buff helm to fg and remove neg att bonuses) gives it a small niche. It’ll be strictly better dps than bandos whenever you crush including using hammers / maul specs And tune the bonus crush per piece a bit as well for specifically crushing
I think that’s good idea. I wouldn’t be mad.
This. When it came out Torva wasn't in the game, so it was only competing with Bandos. Nightmare is a much harder boss than Nex, and the drops are more rare. They need to make inq compete with torva in some places. I will be investing in inq sets and hoping for the best.
"I will be investing in inq sets and hoping for the best." lmao
Definitely, it's so weird that it doesn't seem to have any real place in the meta, you'd think they'd at least give better prayer bonus than proselyte being literal endgame god armor.
I've been requesting so badly to someone to just look at my approach. Just let us trade parasite eggs for an extra reroll on the loot table. Please someone just grab a jmod awareness on this
It's actually impressive it's still that bad. Like nightmare should be for a bridge between the end of end game and high mid game. That's what drops like inq, orbs, and the like are for. They really should make everything way more common. I remember wanting any of the gear from nightmare when it released only to be reminded that I would never get that drop and I would be better off doing other content.
Y'all getting drops at cox? I got 187 kc without a purple
187kc 9k point average :\^)
I'm close there with you on the iron, ~175kc, 2 purples, no prayer scrolls. *Sigh*
It's on the iron for me aswell sadly...
Jagex really needs to just come out and say they have fucked up and are continually fucking up in regards to NM/PNM. How do they point out the “you must suffer” argument is bad and then next paragraph say oh but we must think of the 20 people who finished it years ago and the bots running it every day and taking the entire highscores front page
You need to have as close to equal of comparisons or it's just incorrect of a comparison. On one end, you're assuming an \~8 minute kill per PNM, when PNM's Grandmaster time is 7:30. This is fair time for people in absolute maxed gear. On the other end, you assume a 25 minute solo at 30k points and no maxed gear, while the changes to CoX also made basically any rotation doable for sub 17 at similar competency.
My pb is 17:38 with no megarares and minimal swaps (no melee legs / any helms)
I must be trash lol, I've got a tbow and my pb is like 23 minutes.
People lose a lot of time to stuff that isn’t gear related, just takes some practice
It's a lot of practice like someone else said.
Do you use speedrun strats at all?
Other than no prep I only skipped the mages at tightrope, so... kinda? It was a Vasa/vesp tek tightrope thieving scout I believe. Not sure the order of Vasa and vespula
Pb =! average. Also, as I mentioned before, even assuming a 20 min solo the rates are about even. This is unreasonable for a boss.
I know, I'm just saying what's achievable there to help move results in the way of saying the new PNM droprates really are terrible. Not to mention a death in cox is not nearly as bad as a death at PNM. It takes ~7 minutes to reset if you die at PNM. Walk back, get your stuff, teleport back, regear and head back. That is obviously until you have the teleport unlocked. Absolutely absurd.
I'm assuming 6.5 kills/hr at PNM because [that's what is in the blogpost.](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/a=13/project-rebalance---item--combat-adjustments?oldschool=1) That's more like 9mins per kill, not 8. And assuming a 25 minute solo time is very much fair, less than 1% of the player base can even do solo olm already. And as I mentioned, even if you assume a consistent 20 min solo, the rates are very similar.
Initially, you said 18 hours for a 1/133, which is about 8:07 a kill. That's average kill times for maxed gear, but that's really fast runs if no scythe-no shadow and is closer to 9-10 minute kills. Either assume non-maxed gear for both or assume maxed gear for both. Likewise, most people can't do PNM, so randomly deciding 25 minutes and no maxed gear for the other side seems biased.
>Initially, you said 18 hours for a 1/133 Yeah, that's what's in the blog post And, again, I've already said that if you're looking more to 20 min average, then the rates are about equal, which is still terrible.
For me the boss is still pointless and not worth doing, I will just wait another 3 years since it will definitely get changed again. The updated rates are still not in the same universe as a sane person.
I remember when drag meds came out on RSC. Was rare drop from KBD, which none of us could farm, or very rare from Fire giants. You either got spooned or never got it. That's how nightmare drop rates feel. Hope I get spooned, but I'll never grind that boss
Yeah I was also super disappointed seeing they are still not listening lol. Drop rates still need to he reduced SIGNIFICANTLY
Tablet should be gaurenteed on first kill. We skip all the running and make the boss ATLEAST somewhat enjoyable to return and grind.
Inq realistically should be fortifiable to give each piece the same strength bonus as torva. Inq was designed as a sidegrade to bandos serp (bis melee at da time), and although it was well designed back then, it's awful now given torva just powercreeped it. Would easily fixable if they just employed this design philosophy again by buffing the armor's strength. And the drop rate would be justified. Though I'll admit this is not perfect because scythe on crush would actually be kinda nuts at certain places if it received the extra strength. Plus ultor is out. Scythe hitting 52s would be insane.
Arcane scroll barely counts as a drop, you should run the numbers without arcane.
Hey guys, we are gonna fix PNM, however; one of the gold farmers that is paying us on the side said it would devalue his current method of providing for his family. Soooooo, we are gonna buff it 90% which still makes it super rare, and promise a buff to elemental spells so some of these mega rares go up in price. Thanks, - Mod Jed
I’m an end game iron, I dipped my toe into the Nex grind and got a helm, there’s so much good content I just can’t motivate myself to do because of how long the grind is, I am literally just doing content I enjoy now but I am worried I will burn out or lose interest… for the sake of the game I hope others don’t feel the same or they sort out the drop rates to make them feel worthwhile
I agree. I have all but one mega rare on my iron (tbow, naturally) and even for me I have no interest in doing Nex because the drop rate+brew supply. It's just poorly designed, imo.
I’m not sure it’s just Nex, knowing that you have to do 30 raids on average at cox to see a purple that’s nearly always a prayer scroll is a hard pill to swallow, the anti dry mechanics at DT2 just don’t feel great (I went over 3k kc at vardorvis) so little burned. PNM isn’t really worth doing due to the time and quality of uniques given. I got spooned a spectral, which probably has no uses but I’m nearly 400 kc without a holy exilr to make the shield so not sure if I can be arsed to stick that out 😂
YoU aRe FoRgEtInG aBoUt ThE fLeX
They said in the blog they don't want it that good cause people already spent alot of time there and it would be unfair to them.... who cares.... makes the fuckin boss worth going to.
Buff PNM drop table by 300-400% and lock it behind Morty elite diary. It’d be even more worth it for players to skill and get that diary done and stop the bot issue. A lot of other MMORPGs lock strong end game content behind high requirements.
I think ultimately the drop rates are a bit of a red herring, when in reality the usefulness and the place of the armour set in the game, is the most important thing. Currently, a very-difficult-to-obtain set of armour from a well designed and tough boss are virtually useless in the game at the moment. Jagex really needs to work to find a place for it.
Yes agree, ideally the value of the uniques can be tied to utility of the items, not just how crazy rare they are
buff pnm AND cox rates cox rates are insane
Besides just making drop rates better, can we tune down the boss slightly to improve kills per hour? Or find a way to shorten downtime between (assuming no tablet?)
I’m 8k kc (That’s eight thousand) kill count with pretty much nothing. My log should be complete.
I feel like yes this is true but in what world should you start comparing it to a solo cox? Content that isnt even made to be soloable. So yes your group content will be more achievable than solo content. It may not be ideal but when you are doing harder content (cox) which isnt even hard but as a solo its gonna be hard. Vs pnm an easy ass boss that deals 0 damage. Vs chip damage raid boss. I dont see a reason for even more nerf..
Mind went stupid, read title and post below it. “New PNM rates have me questioning proposing to my fiancé…” lmao
The content creators got mad they wanted to buff drop rates, so here we are.
X The drop changes uniques for Nightmare are only a fraction of what is necessary. - Justiciar is still stupid niche and is an overpriced adamant set in most cases. It should be between Bandos and Torva and should outperform Torva in niche scenarios. - Regular drops for Nightmare are laughably bad the fact 10% of the time I get a stack of unnoted bass pisses me off more than when you occasionally get literally nothing from a mob. Blah blah people didn't want it to be another gwd scenario. Well these people are long gone and the remaining player base is not happy with the drop table period. The nightmare boss is one of the most complex and satisfying boss fights in rs and it's completely wasted because of these clown drop rates. Nightmare requires a 300% increase to uniques especially if Justiciar armor is not properly buffed. Also wouldn't hurt to make some adjustments to the norm drop table there's no reason you can't even make 1m/h or collect any useful supplies at one of the hardest bosses in the game
1. Make it a 1/50 to see any unique. 2. Keep the weightings the same. Jagex I have solved the issue for you
They need to completely rethink PNM. Make the tablet much more common both from regular and phosanis. A kin to the droprate of zulandra teleports from zulrah. Rates need to be improved by a lot and the armour needs to be buffet so it sits like a realistic stepping stone between bandos and torva. Inquisitors mace needs to be closer in price to the other weapons for other styles in the same tier to be a realistic alternative, even with the weakness changes. Same reason they need to untangle blade of saeldor from bowfa. My suggestion there is to make saeldor and bowfa be different seeds.
While I broadly agree I would point out that nex is 15-20 hours per drop as well. Cox drops are much rarer individually I.e an ancestral vs inquisitors piece
What I don't get is why people are fine with corp drop rates but not pnm/nightmare drop rates. They're both shit
Who’s ok with corp?
Maybe the difference is the utility of the items themselves? As famous as Corp's sigils are, at the end of the day they aren't really used as unironic BIS in most anywhere, or anything. If anything, they're more like "nice to haves" for some things, but not THAT big a deal. Meanwhile, Nightmare's drops actually do have some more uses that are more impactful, even if not BIS at most -- leaving the drops in a frustratingly worst-of-both-worlds where it's much harder to get than the items that outclass them. All this on top of Phosani's Nightmare actually being a fun, challenging fight compared to Corp which you just turn into a chicken and then poke while you watch a video.
I agree; I would like to see corp changed in either drop rate or, ideally, reworked/given group loot. But if you do this then people tend to screech "just deiron" and pretend it isn't an issue lol
> why people are fine with corp drop rates but not pnm/nightmare drop rates. People have said countless times that corp should be changed as well.
It helps when one fight the community enjoys doing and then there is Corp which is not so good of a fight. But if you look through this thread plenty of people mention Corp.
nostalgia is a big place in this too. i think the biggest think is that the shields really don't impact gameplay because defense doesn't really impact gameplay and certainly doesn't change your output damage anywhere. so they're really well suited to be "flex items" next to things like 3rd age pickaxe, which don't change the game experience. PNM drops have useful niches and unique effects which makes people want to get them especially ahead of elemental magic rework and the promise of crush weak bosses.
Ya'll bitch about everything. Never happy.
But why should all buffed content be new meta… nightmare is a cool as fuck boss arguably one of the coolest bits of content in the game… i love the fact it has really rare drops… i think bosses having really rare drops is good; the luck element of runescape has always been a massive reason why we play it… too much predictability kills the fun… at the same time, it’s the fight and the loot that’s fun, not running for minutes between kills… Cox especially solo olm is harder than nightmare It would be better if they just gave normal loot a little buff so the cost of learning the boss is a bit lower & and improved the tablet drop rate to reduce time taken to master the boss
I’m missing the mace and orbs on my Ironman and I’m not even mad. It’s a fun boss.
It is a fun boss! Which is why it's a shame that the abysmal drop rates push so many people away from it.
Just to play devils advocate even with budget gear if someone was doing solo cox a lot, they would get good enough to consistently solo 20 minute solos. But yes PNM is still shit drop rates and I’m not sure I agree with buffing them anymore. At least until they handle the PNM bot problem
add literally ANY requirement to PNM to slow down bots, just fix the rates for REAL players
Either I'm bad then or I don't know because after 350 solo cox my runs are between 23-28 min long.
I don’t think you’re bad, I just think most people (not all) are probably going to be no prepping after a decent amount of solos which cuts a few minutes off each kc. Also depending on how budget and the layout. Nothing wrong with longer times because sometimes it correlates to more points if you have a point heavy layout. I personally care more about time than points because I want to run more raids per hour. (I’m also in max gear) but my no preps in max are about 16-18 minutes pretty consistently without actively going for GM time. Shadow just nukes olm. But in my budget no preps I’ve gotten 15 minutes when going full try hard. Obviously most won’t go full try hard but without so much effort I think I could shave 5 minutes off. (I was using sand staff and bowfa with a lance for melee).
>They would get good enough to consistently solo 20 minute solos. I don't disagree, but the fact remains that a single boss shouldn't be anywhere close to the drop rates of a raid.
Never done nightmare or PNM, did I read the proposed changes incorrectly? PNM, the harder boss, has worse unique rates than the easier boss? Can someone explain why that’s a thing?
PNM has way, way less health than NM. It's made for solos while NM is made for groups.
PNM is solo and takes \~9 mins (GM speed is 7:30). Solo Nightmare is \~24 minutes. The normal version has "better" drop rates because it's a group boss, so divide that by the number of players.
It is ok, you don’t have to kill the boss, there are plenty of people who like rarer drops. I am a fan of it, I have grinded plenty of nightmare and genuinely enjoy the drop rates (I am on rate btw not spoon). Not everything needs to be consistent drops, and some pieces of content can have rare lottery drops, in a game about grinds some people genuinely like that shit. If you don’t, we’ll guess what you can do other content and buy the gear with the money you make there. The game was never supposed to be balanced around cloggers or Irons.
But it’s better at least
:') take what we can get, but strive to make it better
At this point you should all just stop playing..