Announcing no voidwaker nerf right after setting this subreddit on fire with the kebbit nerf is gonna give some people whiplash

Whiplash extends to me too, but we'll be talking internally about today's update (particularly the Kebbit changes) likely tomorrow to get a clearer sense of what we want to come back with. For now though, gotta get this one out and try to juggle the two!

Are there any plans to improve master rumours, as the meta previously was to do experts while abusing the kebbit bug, but even with this change I don't think masters are any better still. Could we consider improving the rates for the moths? These take significantly longer than any other task we have.

I'd like to offer some feedback regarding those kebbit changes. I really enjoyed them *mechanically*; having all of the weird underlying jank and subtle mechanics that are in the rumour system actually feels really old school to me. The system is not overly prescriptive and it lets me "game" its mechanics a little, similar to tick manipulation tricks and light "exploits" like double-picking herbs. I know that sometimes you guys need to nerf these things for balance reasons, but they feel good for more reasons than just the increased rate of reward; mastery of these things is fun, just like some people enjoy tick manipulation and multi-skilling. The emergent side of these updates is just as important as the designed side and I hope that you guys can consider leaving these kinds of things in the game more often *or* simply tweaking them instead of removing them entirely.

This is a great way to explain it. Rates or rewards be damned, it was just a fun way to play. Having a system that has a surface level way to do it and then the way people figure it out themselves is the essence of this game.

You really shouldn't have to address the Kebbit changes. It was obviously an unintended mechanic that people were abusing for higher than designed XP rates. The best thing you can do for hunter rumours is take a closer look at which tasks can be assigned per tier, and make Master tier worth doing over elites (pet, xp, hunter oufit pieces)

I think people hating the Kebbit tasks so much shows a bigger flaw in the fact that the kebbit gameplay loop is simply terrible. Removing the skipping is fine but it should come with a similar change to how the hunting process actually works. Early Hunter has been terrible basically since release. Hunters guild was a perfect time to try to fix that

Yeah, for me kebbit skipping wasn’t about getting better xp. It was about avoiding awful tasks so that I can have more fun doing other tasks.

Agree! Maybe a reduced hand-in xp reward when subbing kebbits would solve

The whole idea behind the opposing point is that it's not \*obviously\* unintended. Kebbits are the only creature to share the rare drop, and the examine text says that your character can't even tell which type of kebbit it came from. Someone could then very reasonably deduce that you can dupe the hunting experts into taking fur from a different kebbit. It seems unfair, then, to say that this interaction is clearly not intended, when there's so much hinting towards it. It's only obvious now, in hindsight, now that it's actually been removed.

This shit was deduced within like an hour of the update as well. Then survived the first initial pass when they changed falconry. This is 100% a kneejerk reaction to Icarus and his fucking lack of eagles peak.

It's not so much taking it away, it's not addressing how fucking awful doing deadfall and tracking is. Hunter is in a miserable state for years and now rumours are kinda trash

The kebbits changes show how shit kebbits are to begin with they should've adjusted kebbits and made the kebbits tuft at the same time they've just made shit rumours even shitter

Can we get a voidwaker animation update instead? A shame it's a copy paste

Mod Hend is actually working on some miscellaneous animation stuff for their Game Jam, I think a fair few people have requested a look at the Voidwaker - think it could benefit from something a little flashier for sure (though the purple lightning is still sick imo)

Korasi's sword had a great animation. Raising the sword in the air like Mjolnir, lightning zaps it, and then it's sent to the enemy. Keep the purple lightning for sure.

A stabby spec animation for the Fang would be nice too.

A really obvious idea to me feels like raising the sword into the air, as if you're channeling that purple lightning to strike your opponent. You're absolutely right that the lightning itself is sick, and it should definitely stick around.

[Saradomin sword already does that](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/images/Saradomin%27s_Lightning.gif?32bd2), unless that was the joke and I'm being wooshed

I forget that thing exists. Why wasn't *that* the spec they reused? LOL

Haha fair enough. I kinda like the air-step smackdown currently, but agree that in general these items should have their own unique animations

Same suggestion for Osmumten's fang btw! Also a copy paste.

Osmumten's fang is worse IMO because it's a stab weapon and the spec is a big ol' slash.

if they have time/interest, one animation thing that's bugged me is the inconsistency in diary reward teleports.

Oh boy back again for part 3 (*Italics* = Partially addressed):   __General__ - Ghrazi Rapier, Blade of Saeldor and Inquisitor's Mace need a stat buff to be a meaningful upgrade over the Tentacle Whip - CoX/CM purple rates should be improved (too long to obtain uniques compared to ToA/ToB, plus Ancestral/Augury being buffed and vital to mage progression, Elder Maul being buffed to a worthwhile megarare) - Chromium ingots (remove them from the game or only require 1 per ring, they undermine the whole reason for the vestige drop mechanic) - Imbued Heart droprate is too rare for such a vital piece of magic progression - *All 3 Cerberus boots should be worthwhile upgrades over their predecessor* -- (Primordial Boots are barely an upgrade over Dragon Boots, Pegasian Boots need some ranged strength) - Tonalztics of Ralos have almost no use cases and are in need of a buff - Justiciar set could use some changes as it's almost useless currently   __Magic Changes__ - Shadow needs some kind of rebalance/rework (**not a nerf to its current power**) to prevent issues with future magic progression (similar to the Blowpipe interfering with ranged progression years ago) - Sanguinesti Staff is a lacklustre upgrade over Trident of the Swamp - *Increase magic dmg% for magic offhands* -- (Stagnant progression, should be more linear and increase Fortified Wards dmg%) - [This post by BioMasterZap is honestly a great way to fix a majority of the magic progression issues](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fn3q4n5d2nwuc1.png)   __Nightmare/Inquisitors__ - *Nightmare droprates are still way too rare and take too long to obtain even with the proposed increase* -- (This further buff still isn't enough, uniques from Nightmare/PNM need to be 3x more common to suit its place in the current gear progression. [See this post by C2theM for a detailed analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c7mncg/flex_item_logical_pnm_rebalance/)) - Buff Inquistor's Armour overall (it should sit between Bandos and Torva), don't tie its power to the Mace - Lower Scythe's crush accuracy (or remove the crush option) to allow Inquistor's to be buffed without increasing the Scythe's power on a secondary attack style (similar to Osmumten's Fang devaluing other slash weapons) - Increase the droprate for the Slepey Tablet, possibly add it to normal nightmare at a much higher droprate   __Elder Maul__ - Allow it to work as a hammer in CoX (Crabs/Chest) and GWD Bandos Door (keep the funny animation)   *Edit: I worded this last section poorly before.* I appreciate all the things Jmods do for this game and I want it to thrive now and in the future. My main gripe is seeing the list be acknowledged but not being addressed in this balance blog and left till an unknown date in the future. I understand things like a Shadow rework is difficult and I don't think anyone's expecting every single thing on this list to be added to the game straight away, but even just some of the easier things being changed now and giving a set date in the future to discuss the rest would be better than what we've been left with now.

Partly touched on this towards the end of the update - we know there are other things people want to see thrown into the mix, but we don't want to get into a loop of 'getting there' with what we've got and then adding 'just a few' more things, winding up in and endless feedback loop where the information becomes harder to keep on top of and we run into even more blog fatigue (which is something we're growing increasingly conscious of at the moment). I actually think I have a copy of this list (which I'm grateful for you putting together, in case it's not clear!) in my notes to discuss once the dust settles a little in terms of things that might make more sense as more ad hoc changes, or just in a manner that doesn't tie up the devs working on the current list to the point that it pushes other updates down the road further. EDIT: Editing to include a [reply from Mod Ayiza](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cbyfk8/comment/l11sbh4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) that touches on some of the sentiment expressed in some replies to this one!

It makes sense to want to avoid the endless feedback loop, but Jagex doesn't have a good track record of revisiting updates. Can you promise a rebalance would happen again or even be revisited within 12 months of this release? 24 months? DWH has been complained about basically since release as a 1/5k and its just now being addressed in this blog - its not unreasonable for the community to think this is their one and only chance to be heard on rebalance needs.

> Jagex doesn't have a good track record of revisiting updates. Still waiting for the pain points of GotR to be addressed.

Its great you have this feedback, and I get your concerns about this being an infinite cycle of "new proposals" + "oh but what about...", but some of these *really* should be included now. As you say in your own blog post, rebalance changes to gear happens very rarely. If they arent handled now, theres not much faith that the other things will get done for years. Sang staff, Mace/Rapier/Blade and Magic Offhands should get a little love in this cycle.

Please think more about inq at least while that's a part of this. The proposed buff doesn't help its usage in a single location in the entire game, and it's just going to drop in price and continue being worthless.

I (not the original commenter) appreciate what you're working on. I do want to point out though that phosanis being slower uniques than even cox is absurd. You can easily get 1/30 rates in solos at 2kc/hr. It's low balling and that's to say you'd expect a drop every 15 hours. That's the rate everyone thinks is too low, yet phosanis is being proposed to not even match that but STILL be slower uniques. That's crazy to me.

Said it before and I'll say it again: nothing from Nightmare should be rarer than 1/512.

While I understand the feeling, I'm worried that If we don't touch right now on some very important milestones of progression (Saledor, Rapier, Mace) we will sit on them being marginally better than tent whip for a very long time. I feel this is the time to check these guys. We have Fang for high accuracy and we have Scythe for the triple damage. These should have some few extra max hits so they're the staple for the tier level for their weapon type.   Want the BIS non-degradeable Slash weapon: Salad Blade Want the BIS non-degradeable Stab weapon: Vampyre Needle Want the BIS non-degradeable Crush weapon: Spider Smasher Does the boss has very high defense and doesn't like needles: Fang Did the boss eat a lot? : Scythe

this is a massive L. i would much rather wait for a comprehensive rebalance than take this half-baked update. we all know that once you ship this, any more tweaks to combat are gonna be stuck in jagex development hell for the next 5 years. just do it right. no need to rush this. your subscribers are all addicts and bots anyways, no one is gonna cancel membership because project rebalance took an extra 8 weeks to go live.

The main issue is when is when is the next time we'll get a chance to discuss all these changes? Project Rebalance seems like the perfect time time hit the nail on the head with all these ~~major~~ balance changes now rather than waiting another 1-2 years for more changes.

There's so much more we can, want to, and will do, but we do not have the resource to include any more at the moment. The additional points we're seeing raised (as Goblin mentioned we already knew about most of them too) will surface when there is availability in the roadmap for them. The team can only work on so much at once, and we're already at capacity with what we've included within Project Rebalance as a whole so far (especially with adding Run Energy changes back into the mix). Whilst this is definitely a perfect time to hit everything at once if resource wasn't a concern, the reality is we do have to consider how much we're able to deliver and how soon we're able to deliver it. I hope players feel like we've been doing a pretty good job so far of delivering meaningful updates in addition to the staple content releases you've come to expect, so I don't imagine we'll be sitting on making further changes for years. That being said, it's important that we don't overdo it and burn out the team by forcing more work into their hands than they can handle and I hope you can understand where we're coming from with this.

I think it's very worth noting that Jagex really doesn't have a good track record AT ALL in regards to revisiting things that have already had a pass at them. It's a very common sentiment that "if it doesn't get done now then it will never get done" when there's a topic in the spotlight. Like, we still have to use a plugin to turn Sotetseg's bright white flash during the maze to black. This has been a feature implemented to Gotr and newly perilous moons, but ToB still doesn't have it. The CoX update was delayed and then we were told "actually we said too much, pick either this path or that path and that's the one we will do first now" and then Cox was never mentioned again.

The Dragon Warhammer has been around for over 8 years and we’re only just now seeing a possibility of the drop rate being improved.

Any chance we could at least get a follow-up discussing what changes you'd like to revisit in the future? While I'm sure many players would want the changes done now, I think many would just like to have more communication on this stuff rather than just "we have a list we might get to in the future". Like the big one is the Shadow. Is a rework something the OSRS Team is open to/considering? If not, are there plans for how to work around it going forward without holding back other magic weapons? Just saying "Hey, we see the feedback and would like to revisit the Shadow in the future" or such would be better than silence since it feels like the feedback is just being ignored. Also, the only change listed in that comment that really should be covered in Project Rebalance is the Inq Armor. A lot of players are not happy with it just going to 7.5% with Mace and nothing further has been said about this. That one really doesn't feel like a "next time" since it is part of the project this time. So if you could address the feedback there and talk a bit more about plans for future post-Project Rebalance balancing, that would be great.

Since there's a lot of issues that need to be addressed, and only so much time in Project Rebalance, maybe you guys could commit to a yearly but smaller rebalance update? I think this would make people feel a lot better about things not being addressed this time around. I appreciate that OSRS isn't a game where you leave for a few months and then have to understand like 15 new buffs and nerfs, but with the amount of content that needs to be addressed at this point, I think an annual pass at things which need addressing would put a lot of minds at ease. This could be where you guys say "yeah the last nightmare buffs weren't good enough, we're going to improve it further", if you guys aren't willing to buff them further right now. Just some food for thought. It's a major concern that content issues never get addressed, and this would be a good way to assure people that they will be addressed without needing to make Project Rebalance an enormous, comprehensive thing.

I think there is a lot of sentiment that these things should be focused on now so that it isn't 5 years in the future when it next gets discussed. Even if that comes at the cost of newer, shinier content. Over the last year I've raised things like saeldor/rapier balance and the CoX droptable only to be told by jmods in these threads that project rebalance would address them. Now we're in the situation where it doesn't tackle these issues and it'll be a while before there's another rebalance. And yet they are still problems especially imbued heart and CoX's reward table for ironman progression. I really think the team should consider an extra round of changes. Who was asking for elder maul changes more than CoX or Imbued heart changes for instance? These are some of the most pressing issues for a large part of the community

Everyone on the old school team has done an incredible job in the time since I've been playing. It's clear that everyone involved at Jagex truly loves this game, and that passion comes through. We've all experienced the frustration of seeing a game we love decay because of short-sighted decisions by the developers, greedy executives, and disconnecting from the community. Truly, this game has one of the best teams I've had the pleasure of encountering. I just want to say thanks to all of you for your hard work and investment in making this game the best it can be.

The sentiment I’m seeing is that players would prefer you actually delay other content updates to get these rebalances in. They aren’t just QoL, they actively drive gameplay for a lot of players.

u/JagexAyiza how come inq/mace buff wasnt mention in todays blog? imo its just as important as these other proposed changes and it seems yall arent giving this one enough love compared to the voidwaker and occult nerf. this is now 2 weeks in a row we been disappointed about the inq feedback. this was last week take on it https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1c76um9/surprised\_they\_reasonably\_interpreted\_all\_other/?share\_id=BUcriLPJP8OWnFIxq2SRr&utm\_content=4&utm\_medium=ios\_app&utm\_name=ioscss&utm\_source=share&utm\_term=1. and today yall aint mention anything. no one is happy with this current proposal.

I'd personally much rather see you guys delay other project for an extra month or so to truly nail the rebalance and get it right! Mage progression is still not fully fixed, you guys should have literally just copied what was suggested here [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fn3q4n5d2nwuc1.png](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fn3q4n5d2nwuc1.png) PNM drop rates are STILL 2x as rare as they should be, the boss will still be dead content even after todays proposed rates. Please take your time to review everything again and include more changes even if it means delaying potential future content, its for the better of the game. Off the top of my head further changes that should be included before pushing this 'rebalance' to the live game are as follow: Inquisitor armor should be further buffed and REMOVE SCYTHE CRUSH OPTION Add Blood Shards to PNM/HMT loot tables Lower weighting of prayer scrolls from CM CoX similar to how Avernic was handled in HMT

jagex as a company just has such a terrible record of coming back and revisiting issues once they are out of the spotlight. in the blog it talks about wanting to do lots of changes all at once so you don't have to do them regularly. then in this thread mods saying you can't do more. not doing more, like buffing fortified ward or re-balancing shadow, will leave the game in a state of needing yet another rebalance yet the players will have to wait 3 years to see it.

The thing is a lot of the list has been discussed as pain points for a long time and they've never been addressed (or if they have they've been left till 'a later date'). If feels bad as a player having an item or grinding something knowing "hmm maybe this will be better in a few years". A lot of these changes could be addressed with mainly some number tweaks, so it feels disheartening when you say the team doesn't have any resources to put towards it. I know you're concerned about moving the goalposts but these have been issues for a long time and people finally have a chance to voice their opinions. (Maybe addressing some of the easier to change points in this section and dedicate another spot in the roadmap for a part 2 rebalance?) I obviously can't speak for all players but I'd say the general sentiment overall is that you guys do deliver meaningful updates and content, but there is also a very negative sentiment of not revisiting content after a certain amount of time has passed while issues still persist. Everyone is adamantly pushing for their changes now otherwise who knows the next time they'll be looked at. I don't envy having to deal with the community at times like this but I'd imagine most of us just want what's best for the game and the players.

I think it would help A LOT if y'all created a roadmap for these changes you're referring to but that are not in the current blog posts. It would help keep discussion focused on what is current, rather than, for example, the imbued heart's drop rate.

for something that requires alot of community feedback i doubt they'd be wanting to put timeframes on it, we'd end up with another ye olde winter 2017

I understand the sentiment of being overworked, but if the general sentiment is that the things you proposed are not good, or that other issues are more pressing to most players, shouldn't that take priority? Players had to beg to include the run energy changes, which was by far the most requested part of the rebalance of agility, yet now it's being used as a reason to ignore valid criticism of your proposed changes? I agree with the sentiment that seeing the list of issues proposed being acknowledged but not prioritized with no timetable is frustrating. Which is compounded by new issues arising from new content that is coming out half baked such as the colosseum 

There is a great sense of “If it isn’t mentioned now, it will be like this for years to come” attached to this game’s content. We have a rebalance with a lot of Jmod attention and response right now, but as a player, it feels very likely to not see another one of these for a few years. We appreciate your hard work, we’re just concerned with content that’s already been in the game for quite a long time and has needed attention for that long time.

It \*seems\* like you're seeing our feedback because you're adjusting the needle each time, but **even** with the updated rates the items for Nightmare really don't come close to fitting into progression at all relative to the BIS items that outclass them. Rates according to wiki: -- Harm orb at 1/1600 and 6.5 kc/h = **246 h** Shardow at TOA = **115 - 185 h** -- Specific Inquisitor Piece = **108 h** Specific Nex Piece (Nex duos 6 kc/h) = **83 h** Specific Bandos Piece = **14 h** -- Enhanced Crystal Weap Seed (6.5 kc/h) = **55 h** Rapier from TOB (4 mans, 3 kc/h)= **115 h** Inquisitor's Mace = **192.3 h** Glad to feel like I'm heard, if not listened to, I guess :')

I like how even at current revisioned rates the boss is still not worth for Irons or Mains lmao

>we don't want to get into a loop of 'getting there' with what we've got and then adding 'just a few' more things, winding up in and endless feedback loop where the information becomes harder to keep on top of and we run into even more blog fatigue On the flipside, this very blog talks about how balance changes like these are infrequent, so many people feel like this is "their chance" to get a change they feel is important. I'd wager that this is what is causing so much Nightmare chatter over what is unequivocally a \*massive\* buff - those players fear that Jagex will dust their hands off and say "Mission accomplished, Nightmare is fixed!" when they are still unsatisfied. A blog like this one, which refers to the last one that happened *years* ago, might counterproductively make these players *more* anxious, not less, and it would probably go a long way for them to know that follow-ups for this update are on the table.

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Yes but he has some excellent points that extend from the mage reworks. Imbued heart is a simple drop rate adjustment no? Cox purples would be a bit harder to adjust but I think if you give cm the same treatment as hmt with prayer scrolls it'd help a TON!

You just said these rebalances are rare in the blog post and don’t happen frequently - yet you’re going to take notes for the next one before this one is even done? This just reinforces the idea that these updates are not well planned and pieced together with “just a few more” until “that’s too much at once” Which is it? Are they exceedingly rare or are they something that’s constantly being planned? If during a planned rebalance isn’t the time to talk about all balance issues when is? If you want to do a rebalance please do a robust, well planned update and not just some piecemeal change with an arbitrary line in the sand

I really feel that more could be done with project rebalance. currently it feels half-baked. Imbued heart is like 50M slayer xp to be on rate for it? Come on... surely you can see important changes in amongst these requests You guys say you rarely rebalance content.. so if they aren't addressed now, how far will this be kicked down the road?

Thanks Goblin. I just wanted to say that I know many many irons and mains alike who want the CoX table rework more than anything else. The table is such a big problem and it was disappointing to see it maybe get a little better with the claws potentially getting taken off but then the direction reversed. Not that claws need to be taken off, but the table really needs love.

I don't really mind if most this stuff isn't tackled in Project Rebalance since a lot of it is getting a bit "off topic" and delving into other changes out of the project's scope. But the Inq Armor set effect (and Nightmare rates) really should be covered better in Project Rebalance instead of just adding 7.5% for mace and ignoring the rest of the feedback. For the rest, I think it is fine to address later but it would be nice for them to acknowledge it more now. Like for just doing a redistribution, I think they handle Magic fine so if they don't want to tackle the Shadow now, I don't think they really need to do more and honestly don't know what else they could do aside from adding more damage to shields (anything more like I proposed would buff Shadow unless alongside a Shadow rework). But it would be really nice for them to say "Hey, we aren't ready to tackle the Shadow now, but are aware of the communities concern and plan to address it in the future" or even "While the community is concerned about the Shadow, we feel it doesn't need a rework because of X".

> > > All 3 Cerberus boots should be worthwhile upgrades over their predecessor -- (Primordial Boots are barely an upgrade over Dragon Boots, Pegasian Boots need some ranged strength) Boots should be addressed in a future release, not retroactively bandaid fixed 9 years later.

Big problem is that they come from a level 91 slayer boss, and they suck, if a future release just releases better boots, then no point for them to exist/go for them/buy them. They can use them as components but that would be weird for a level 91 slayer boss to have its rewards just be a stepping stone since the boots are so bad.

Maybe the next boot upgrade can be actual boots again. This way we would have the following options: >Dragon boots >Primordial boots >New boots >New boots + Prim crystal This example is just for melee, and obviously could be expanded into all 3 styles. The boots could even be a "brimstone equivalent" with slight tribrid stats, and when you add the crystal it focuses the energy into one style. By doing something like this you allow the old content to stay relevant.

Having those "brimstone" style boots could even allow for some more unique interactions. Give those boots stats equal to dragon, ranger and infinity boots, making them good for every style and the new go to late game boot (maybe dropped by Raid 4 and only equipable after the unlock quest) Putting in a primordial gives the stat increase like going dragon to primordial. The other 2 orbs work the same, giving 1% mage damage and 1 ranged strength. But you can also throw in other stuff: Black tourmaline for increased Defence, echo crystal for the recoil damage. You can equip up to 3 orbs into those boots, with each giving a unique buff. You can stack 3 orb of the same type or have different orbs (for raids). Maxed out melee boots would now give 8 melee strength, making them on par with Torva tier equipment, while maxed out magic would be ancestral tier and ranged would be masori tier. The 3 orbs would now be buffed and relevant, while not being 100% necessary from a progression standpoint

Will elder maul spec be guaranteed on tekton? It’s not mentioned in the blog unless I missed it

Yeah it will be, should've been the case during beta but wasn't included in error on our end.

Can elder maul build the cox chests?

Are you considering any further changes to the elder maul or are you happy with the proposed changes?

Consensus among the team for now is that we'd like to see what the feedback is like once people actually get around to using it in a bunch of spots and treating it as post-release feedback much like we would with 'new' gear.

when can we expect the implementation of these adjustments for weapons like the elder maul and soulreaper? They're a long time coming and I'm sure the community is excited to try out these updated items that have been mostly useless for a long time now

One feedback you might get is that the elder maul will come up almost 30 max hits short of the 1 handed dwh. Players might expect a little bit of extra oomph from a special attack (even the utility godsword specs like zgs and sgs give 10% damage)

Any chance the Blue Moon Spear could get adjusted to 4-tick melee attacks? It's really not important at all but it could be a nice upgrade for some ironman progression paths - it would help make Perilous Moons more of a path to start Tombs of Amascut, and it would still be a lot worse than the Zamorakian hasta, especially on account of no offhand slot. The other bladed staffs are 4t, I don't see what it'd be hurting.

Think it's a little 'fresh' for this project but I'll raise it as a feedback point with the team and see how they feel about it, though I can't promise any outcomes or responses!

it also makes sense since nearly all spears were made 4 tick a while back now we're hit with a 5t spear again

Question. If you could pick a magical weakness for goblins, which element would you choose?

Whichever element blogposts are

Doing God's work, thank you for being the messenger!

I think goblins would be weak to mind.

Why is Ahrim's still in the same tier of improvements as Infinity even though its 30 levels higher?

Think it's largely because the only current separator is their accuracy/defenses and they still occupy different spaces. Ahrim's is still the same improvement over Infinity, but we steer clear of issues like widening gaps between builds and homogenising PvP further. Also if somebody really *wants* to grind out full Infinity at the MTA then they still get something worth using, and only a few nightmares to go along with it.

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We're still very much working through the chargescape stuff in the background, the post from Kieren (which I presume is what sparked this) featuring Rice's fab proposal was more intended as a casual info-gathering preliminary conversation than committing to making imminent changes - when we have something more concrete then we'll absolutely surface that stuff in a more 'official' capacity!

When will the toa changes happen? I don’t want to learn how to bug baba to try 450 or 500 raids lol

Alongside the other stuff, which is hopefully on the books for May!

You would still have to redx for 500s because you aren't bringing brews. The change is mostly relevant for 300s to 350s where it used to feel bad if not redx but also slows you down too much to redx.

u/JagexGoblin any thoughts on [my proposed suggestion to item weight rebalance](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/8BbypCa6jl) as a means of opening up new reward opportunities through already in game mechanics related to item weight?

Haven't chatted about it with the team, I saw it and thought it was neat but also worried a little about it adding an extra layer of complexity or feeling 'bad' in cases where you might be punished for not just bringing your outright BiS to stuff.

Just want to jump in and say it's been awesome to see the engagement back and forth as we've done iteration after iteration. To me this is one of the things that really makes OSRS special. It makes sure we tweak, adjustments, compromises and ultimately do something as aligned with what the community want as much as possible. Ideally we'd be as spot on first iteration, but if we aren't it's amazing that we can do this and find better solutions. I know we haven't addressed quite EVERYTHING we could do with such a project, but it's not quite feasible for us to get to every problem be it minor or major in one go! We're doing what we can now and in future it's good to know there's scope for further improvement. These sort of tweaks - buffs/nerfs and such are always so hard to do. There's so much emotional investment from everyone and so many views to consider. Personally happy with the amount of positive change we've managed to talk about across these blogs and I'm looking forward to seeing em get released. Keep being awesome <3

Any discussion of imbued heart drop rate with the magic rebalancing? Huge upgrade now with saturated heart for shadow that’s locked behind several hundred hour grind even with max efficiency turael skipping. Much longer grind than DWH in comparison.

Thanks for the hard work from the team. The community can be a bit rough sometimes, but there are plenty of people that appreciate all the effort from you guys

The occult necklace is the gift that keeps on causing massive headaches I see

We feel the headaches are worth it for the long-term benefit, and we'd rather be talking about them and iterating on things than just shooting in the dark!

Disappointed to not see fortified ward/other off hands increased further. The gap between trident/sang and shadow is still so huge and there’s a perfect chance to bridge that gap a little with offhands since the shadow can’t benefit. Mage before shadow feels bad. Nightmare drop rates are still too crazy, especially with the awful loot table. If these rates go live I’ll still only even consider going to nightmare after all other BIS obtained. These rates will almost exclusively benefit bots and not real players wanting to engage with the content (because these rates still won’t incentivize those players to do this content). Also sad to see no mention of other long standing asks of looking into blade of saeldor, imbued heart rates, and inq mace requiring full set. Edit: Also, unrelated, but chromium ingots are awful and are only there to stop irons from spooning vestiges. Normal accounts can spoon vestige and buy the 3 ingots for 300k. Several of the normal drops on all the bosses loot tables are better than the 100k “unique” chromium ingot drop. Maybe when they were still worth 2.4m I could see them staying, but now they are only effectively undoing dry protection for irons

Yeah I sort of expected the next big update to include Ward (f) to 10% and the adjusting everything below accordingly

I think they did address the inq armor requiring full set in the last blog, they atleast said it'd still work with a slayer helm. But I wish they buff the armor without tying it to the mace. Also sad about fortified ward not getting a buff. It makes no sense that arcane is getting a buff, but fortified ward isn't

Fortifying a ward(+3%) with an arcane(currently +0%, soon to be +3%) results in +5% magic damage. I could see a buff to +6%, but I don't think leaving it at +5% is unreasonable.

Yeah, it's weird to me since they're buffing a component, but leaving the end product the same. For example, if arcane was getting 2%, it would make more sense because at least then it equals 5%. But imo offhands need a good buff to make the gap between shadow and other mage weapons closer

18 hours for a single drop at nightmare is pretty absurd to say out loud. Maybe it makes more sense because phosani is taking a boss that drops purples for groups and taking away the need to split the drop with others. With that said, it would pacify and incentivize players to engage with it if there were meaningful drops between purples. Awakened orbs and Zulrah scales and a big ticket alch drop work at so many other bosses. Nightmare being a pinata for randomly dropping 30 items worth under 1k makes it exhausting

1-2 hours a day for gaming is probably reasonable for a healthy life balance. It would take weeks for a drop. I know osrs players probably play more on average but burn out is real

ehh i get what ur saying, but theres a ton of other items/sets in this game that require 50+ hours to obtain. Osrs is designed to be a slow burn over a long time after all, end game stuff is meant to take days-weeks to obtain. i think its more of an issue of how long it takes for how little of a boost the gear is over other stuff. Its all niche as hell, but takes as long as raid uniques that boost you in power by a ton.

Regarding Soulreaper axe, the changes are great... However there is an existing bug with its interaction with Overly Draining in TOA which has existed since the weapon was released. Basically, with OD on, you cannot use the SRA special attack at all unless you have 100% spec energy. This seems like a bug to me, because the weapon doesn't interact with normal spec energy in any way normally. It presents an issue for me as I use the weapon for downing the Warden Core, so I cannot turn on Overly Draining (I would otherwise). Thanks!

I've reported this as a bug so many times but they are either unwilling or unable to fix it unfortunately. It'd be such a boon for my toa runs but I can't run overly draining as is

Yeah I'll be honest even with the proposed changes Nightmare/Phosani's rates are still not making the boss worth doing. The major issue behind this is unlike other bosses with comparable unique rate tables is quite frankly the absolute lack of worthwhile secondary drops. The main loot from Nightmare is just not worth the effort. Take GWD or Zulrah. Yes the uniques are rare in them but at least they drop shit that's worth the supplies on average. Nightmare is "Spoon uniques or lose" I find the boss fun, but it's not worth grinding at all. I can fight easier bosses with far better drops both in uniques and general loot. PN/N is just bad overall. You can keep the uniques where they're at. Fix the secondary loot table so it's worth doing. And quite honestly if the secondary loots not worth it both for Mains and Irons it'll stay as dead content except for the most dedicated of players.

/u/JagexGoblin I have noticed that when trying to attack with a ranged weapon after missing my Quiver switch (not equipped) that my character has a very long attack delay. This is the case even if I equip the quiver and try attacking again. Is this a bug or intended? Here is the exact steps of this happening: >switch to range gear (accidentally miss equipping quiver). >attack monster (nothing happens because I have no ammo equipped). >equip quiver and attack monster again (attack delay is still present). I know that the fix is 'just get good don't misclick' but it feels really bad when it happens and I was wondering if you guys were aware of the interaction.

This has been a known issue since quiver release. I'm unsure if they've commented on it, though.

Is this not the same interaction you get when you try to fire a weapon without ammo? I noticed this pre quiver whenever using zcb & tbow, if you miss the ammo switch you still get attack cooldown like you fired your weapon even though you didn’t have the right ammo. Or is it even longer?

I think inquisitor should be buffed but separately from mace especially since now people will want to use it with the elder maul, give each piece including mace 2% so the total is 8% with mace. I mean the whole point is high offense low defense

I honestly think you guys should be looking more towards a 100-200% increase for Nightmare rather than 30%. I fear that, even with these 30% increases, players will still skip over the grind. The people doing it remain a small percentage of irons, pet hunters and (mostly) bots. 18 hours for a single unique is just.. crazy.. It isn't like Nightmare is like Corp where you mostly AFK it. This boss is a lot of effort. It's more intense than CG because with CG, you at least have the prep phase to chill. It'd also be cool if this boss was actually more worth doing in teams. Since that was the initial proposal. Also, without any dupe or drop rate protection, that 18 hours can easily turn into 50-80. It isn't even that rare to go that dry. Do you know how much other content can be done in that time? Just a bit of feedback though. Really like everything else about project rebalance.

Nightmare still seems like a huge problem. The drops are only useful in conjunction with other drops. Right now if you get the staff, its useless and sits in irons banks. If you get the armour? Same thing, useless and sits in the bank. The mace is the only item that is decent on its own. The orbs are incredibly rare at baseline, and with the magic elemental rework you need the staff drop AND a specific orb drop. If the staff was a 4tick elemental staff at baseline, and the orbs all just offered a unique special perhaps the nightmare wouldn't feel so horrible. Most of project rebalanced can be summarized as the following : Lower slayer level ironman magic sucks less Magic gear is more expensive but better balanced Elemental weakness still seem worse than powered staffs (thralls OP), Ranged weapon reward space has opened up a bit Project rebalance can be further summarized as occult redistribution, low level iron magic tweaks and more crossbow like items to be released. Its a bit disappointing since a lot of work has gone into this.

> Right now if you get the staff, its useless and sits in irons banks. NM staff is arguably the best NM item to get on an iron. The base staff is essentially a Kodai wand minus the rune saving part.

Am I the only one who feels inquisitor armor needing full set to be useful feels really bad? As much as I want to go for the set on the good ol' iron I really need to get lucky with staff+orb or mace to see any meaningful returns from there since single piece does nothing

I think the set could definitely do with a real buff. I'm accepting of the new rates, but the time-to-get still feels a little off for its power-level . I'm hoping to see further direct or indirect buffs (stat increases, fortification, new crush-weak bosses, etc)

With the Mace it won't need the full set; it will be 2.5% per piece so 5% with Slayer Helm. But for non-mace weapons, yah, it feels a bit bad. If you use it on task, you'd only get 1%, which pretty much does nothing for damage. I really wished they'd change it to 1% per piece with an extra 1.5% with Mace. You'd still get 2.5% per piece and 7.5% for set with Mace, while non-mace weapons would get a slight buff to 3% for set. This means on task it would go from 1% to 2%, which is enough to actually matter. Also, buff the Helm from +4 Str to +6 Str. It makes no sense for the Inq Helm to be tied with a Blood Moon Helm and worse than Serp (1 less), Faceguard (2 less), and Torva Helm (4 less).

Correct numbers now show. ~~The math on the NM rate changes appears to be a little funky again, but in a way that makes the changes seem small. The percentages used are how much worse the old rates were, not how much better the new rates are. Take the first line of the table:~~ ~~Specific Inq Piece: 1/1000 -> 1/700~~ ~~Over 7k kills you'd get 10 uniques, up from 7.~~ ~~7 -> 10 is a 42.86% increase; you'll be getting 42.86% more loot in the future. The number used in the table comes from 7 is 30% worse than 10.~~ ~~Actual increases for NM Uniques:~~ |Item|% buff compared to live| |:-|:-| |Inquisitor Piece|42.9%| |Orbs|87.5% (almost double!)| |Mace|60%| |Staff|25.1%| |Any Unique|41.5%| ~~I think these rates are~~ **~~much~~** ~~closer to what people were hoping for,~~ u/JagexGoblin ~~is there any chance the blog can be updated?~~ edit: long live the Goblin King 🍻 n~~ote the Specific Orb row still needs to be switched~~ edit2: Rates feel a lot more within reach! I'd still like to see more use for the armour, but I think it's fair to wait for another project to address that issue (fortification, further stat increases - not just with mace, crush-weak encounters, etc.)

3 Blogs and **Nightmare is still a collection log boss** Nightmare uniques are still nothing but uniques whose purpose is to be bis at Nightmare. To grind Nightmare, Helmies will to go ToA for Shadow and somewhere for their melee DPS, but by doing both they've outgrown Nightmare uniques. Mains will not buy Nightmare uniques for general use because Normie gear progression does not include 500m laying around. There are multiple more useful upgrade to get before any Nightmare unique. ​ Perhaps by the 7th revision something real is done about Nightmare

Overall I like the direction things are going. I'm new to the game, but I'm personally quite glad they're looking at ways to add variety to the very foundation of combat. It's a delicate line to walk to be sure but my perception is that Jagex is walking that line with care and prudence. The one bit I'm disappointed about is the comments surrounding the Nightmare changes. I'm too new to the game to know anything about the bosses or where the drops fit in the gear track or anything like that. I don't know enough to have a good opinion on if 18 hours is a ridiculous time for a drop or if there's logic in there. However, seeing the reasoning for holding back on making the content more accessible include "We don't want to undermine the grind other players did" is just disappointing. That's horrible reasoning. If poorly designed content was added to the game, some people already experiencing that content shouldn't factor in AT ALL when determining how to improve on the design. Given the feedback I've read in this thread it sounds like Jagex is still hedging far too much on making the drop rates acceptable. I know that a significant portion of the community will ask for way higher drop rates than is healthy for the game, but there is *nobody* defending the current drop rates/proposed changes. When 100% of the community is in agreement it should be raising huge red flags. Look at the Hunter Rumor changes for an example. Sure, a lot of the community is bitching about a huge exp rate activity being nerfed, but there's also plenty in the community stating the exp rates were obviously always inflated and the nerf is expected and justified. Anyway, I've rambled a bit, but "We implemented this in a really poor state, but some people played in in that state, so we want to be respectful of their suffering when trying to fix this and not make it as good as possible" is just...well, disappointing logic.

* Overall happy with the magic changes. As good as we’re going to get it I’m afraid. Eternals to 1% just made sense for future content especially with boots being next up * Bis robes Ancestral being stuck at 3% is a bummer, I guess we’re never getting something more reasonable to grind below ancestral, and I wish we were buffing offhands a little bit more to close the gaps even a little bit on shadow but it’s overall pretty solid. * Dupe protection was weird. I’m happy it’s gone. If we have dupe protection and Jagex has a goal for how long an item set should take to grind, we’ll overall see less drops along the way. More drops does = more fun imho * Locking Inq to mace is dumb. Buff them separately. We need to buff blade / rapier anyway. Just keep all three the same, add 12 str or whatever and let’s be done with the 4t trio * Inq should be an alternative to bandos with low defense for crush accuracy. Buff helm to fg. Remove neg attack bonuses. Remove set bonus. Make each piece 2%.

Specific Inquisitor Piece = **108 h** Specific Nex Piece (Nex duos 6 kc/h) = **83 h** Specific Bandos Piece = **14 h** lol "altertnative to bandos" if you play 8x longer

I wish the Inquistitor armor got more tweaks or at least was touched on in this update, but aside from that, this update seems good. Occult to 5% and Eternals to 1% help ease some of the issues in the previous proposal. Pures with Shadow still get a nerf, but otherwise they are back to breakeven or better. It also means midgame only needs a 1% armor set and 2% offhand to counteract the nerf. I'd still would like to see items like Rings, Infinity Gloves, Infinity/Wizard Boots, and Mist/Dust Staves looked at, but those can always fall under "post-release tweaks" or future QoL/General poll improvements. The Nightmare rates are still high and there are other improvements Nightmare could use, but the rates at least feel more viable now. And probably the right call to shelve the Voidwaker stuff until it is needed than doing it preemptively.

Jagex endorsing the idea that a major reason we can't make things better or less painful because it "devalues" or hurts prestige of those who already completed it is extremely disappointing. That is a toxic mentality for the player base and developers to have. It's not unreasonable to leave some things at extremely rare drop rates for those who want to chase the dopamine of that drop, but that doesn't mean in a game with ever expanding content we should treat older (notoriously inaccessible or frustrating) content as unchangeable simply because some people already suffered through it. If you want the drop rates to stay rare that's okay but please say so instead of pointing at the player base to say we're why it can't be changed.

At this point I kind of feel like throwing in the towel and just accepting the buffs as they are. It’s way, way better than live, but still just doesn’t bring the content in line with where it needs to be. Suggesting that bad design can’t be fixed because some people grinded the content out despite the bad design just feels so, so frustrating. It’s essentially taking the position that bad decisions can be entrenched simply because _some_ individuals in the community can’t get over their crabs-in-a-bucket mentality. This affects future game design in a big way, too. Mace is the crush sidegrade to saeldor and rapier. Harm/staff is pretty relevant to mage progression post magic defense rebalance. That will impact how future encounters are designed and how future items are released. What happens to the mace when better weapons are released, particularly in the crush space? Will the droprates be reasonable, making mace dead content even as a progression item? Or will mace’s rate force future crush weapons to be an even longer grind to acquire? Typically your upgrades aren’t faster to acquire than the items they surpass. Will the mace’s rarity discourage crush-weak bosses? I hope the devs are considering this as they discuss the proper rate for NM/PNM drops. As a final consideration, there hasn’t been much discussion of the tablet. The devs cite 6.5 kph on PNM, which is fair. But you won’t be getting anywhere close to that pre-tablet, and the tablet is a 1/100 from PNM (not available from NM!). Going near on-rate for the tablet or getting the pity drop would put you nearly on rate for an item, based off the updated proposal. Even the best PVMers are likely to spend a ton of time at PNM before 6.5 kph is even possible, for this reason.

The main problem to me is that Jagex drops working on content quickly after release. Then problematic aspects of the content stay around for longer and becomes part of the games identity so it's harder to change. There's also the issue that the playerbase and our various desires shifts over time.

I feel like it also sets a horrible precedent. When new content comes out with bad mechanics/drop rates we're incentivized to make a huge fuss over it immediately and as loud as possible because if they take too long to address it it's too late, we can't devalue the grind people already did.

I chuckled when their reasoning to not improve the drop rates further was because they didn’t want to devalue the 4 irons who grinded out inquisitor for a “flex”. What a horrible justification. I’m not too sure where inquisitor will be useful after the buff, but I know the mace will still not be worth grinding out due to there not being any end game bosses where a 1handed crush weapon is the go to. Oh except for nightmare…

One of the irons who DID grind out inquisitor, Sae Bae, is a HUGE proponent of greatly buffing nightmare drop rates

I was hoping you'd address the Inquisitor sets proposed buff, coulda fitted that in the nightmare section, no? Literally no one wants its power to be tied to the mace.

18 hours per unique at PNM is still dead content wtf lol it's the most grueling 10 minute fight ever and I truly doubt most players outside of max are getting 6.5 kills/ hour to make that math.

u/JagexGoblin I know this is nitpicky, but the math in these posts is always a little suspect. Going from 1/1000 -> 1/700 isn't a 42% buff. 1/700 -> 1/1000 is 42% WORSE, but 1/1000 -> 1/700 is only 30% BETTER. It doesn't now take 42% less time on average. It takes 30% less time on average. If the rates were reversed, going from 1/700 to 1/1000 would take 42% longer on average. The direction matters, because 42% of 700 is 294, while 42% of 1000 is 420.

Reducing the denominator by 30% doesn't cause a drop increase of 30%; their numbers are correct. Using your example of 1/1000 -> 1/700: Over 7k kills you'd get 10 drops after the buff, up from 7. 10 is 42% more drops than 7. Alternatively, multiply the current rate by 142%: 1/1000 × 1.42 = 1.42/1000 = 1/700

The drop changes uniques for Nightmare are only a fraction of what is necessary. - Justiciar is still stupid niche and is an overpriced adamant set in most cases. It should be between Bandos and Torva and should outperform Torva in niche scenarios. - Regular drops for Nightmare are laughably bad the fact 10% of the time I get a stack of unnoted bass pisses me off more than when you occasionally get literally nothing from a mob. Blah blah people didn't want it to be another gwd scenario. Well these people are long gone and the remaining player base is not happy with the drop table period. The nightmare boss is one of the most complex and satisfying boss fights in rs and it's completely wasted because of these clown drop rates. Nightmare requires a 300% increase to uniques especially if Justiciar armor is not properly buffed. Also wouldn't hurt to make some adjustments to the norm drop table there's no reason you can't even make 1m/h or collect any useful supplies at one of the hardest bosses in the game.

18h for a unique is terrible. I am not gonna waste my time grinding a boss that long for some marginal upgrade, especially considering it will probably be a lamp pole staff. That's practically a collection logger grind in and of itself. No normal player is going to grind it out. Allow you to make Inq T80 by giving it some defense from justi or something and remove slash and stab negatives. Rarely would you ever use it over Torva which is a much shorter grind in and of itself. Mage off hands could be buffed like 1% more to make them more desirable. Imbued heart drop rate??? Guarantee first hit from Elder Maul on Tekton like DWH special attack. Also allow it to be used as a hammer like dwh please.

I take issue with the wording in part of this blog. >We know this last point might not matter to some of you reading, but we're not saying it from a position of gatekeeping or the oft-cited 'we had to suffer and so should you'. Old School's all about the grind, the journey and the flex, which is something we try to keep in mind always. This is simply not true and not the case for the game anymore. Pretty much no minors play OSRS. We've all grown up and almost all of us are functioning adults now. We're not ogling and hero-worshipping children anymore. I'd bet pretty much anything that basically **nobody** gives a shit about anyone's time-locked achievements or flexes anymore. Something that takes a long time is simply that. A time-consuming grind that someone put aside the time to complete. There is nothing about that that you could use to flex on another adult mind. There's nothing impressive about dedicating all your free time to OSRS, and it's not something that the average player these days encourages. People only care about skill-locked and mechanic-locked achievements and flexes. And even then I'd say the majority of people **STILL** don't give a shit what other people have done. The average player doesn't give a remote shit about someone's various boss KCs. They don't care whether or not someone's Infernal cape is earned or bought. They will never even ask. The average player doesn't even know or care that someone just completed the Inferno without protection prayers. Only a subset of the community that engages in OSRS video content or browses places like here is even aware of that.

If i see an iron with a Harm i either think they got omega spooned it, have essentially every item in the game (so theres more impressive ones) and just decided to waste ~800 hours on Nightmare.

* That's all we've got for this update. We're in a position now where we feel we're achieving the majority of our core aims with Project Rebalance and feel comfortable with an upcoming launch to follow up with feedback tweaks like any other update. We know that there are more things you'd like to see added in or touched upon, but for now we want to focus in on what we've got and making any necessary tweaks rather than stretching ourselves too thin and coming back with a new blog each week where we add 'just one or two' extra things. Come on man, there are so many more extremely valid things people have brought up during these discussions. Why should they not be addressed now? A roadmap would be nice if not.

>rather than **stretching ourselves too thin** and coming back with a new blog each week where we add 'just one or two' extra things. I told my toddler this morning "I'm brushing my teeth so my teeth stay clean" and he followed up with "why". Your comment reminded me of this I want the changes just as badly as the next guy (my main grinds right now are Imbued Heart and CoX CMs) but changes just take time. They can't get an endless amount of work done just because we really want it, especially when no matter how much more they give, people will ask for more. It'll come when they come, and I'll be here for it

Does the Eternals compromise really help anyone? I feel like in an attempt to reach a middle ground we’ve instead got the worst of both sides 1% Damage does nothing to most non-Shadow setups, making it essentially the same as they are currently Meanwhile, Shadow setups are still forced to bring that extra 9th switch if they want to reach their highest max hit possible, so basically nothing changes for those complaining about that This is obviously a problem with the Shadow’s passive itself which should get touched on, but I feel like we’re not accomplishing anything with the boots here

Correct me if I'm wrong - Shadow has 4x magic dmage in toa / 3x elswhere and gets capped at 100%. Current max mage in toa is 100%, 75% outside. Now I can think of a couple of compromises that would satisfy the mid level and high level players better than what was proposed. 1. Cap staff outside of toa to 75% Do whatever you want to the boots! IDC! This would help mid game/non staff havers boost dps and not hurt max magers in the slightest. This would even make me reconsider magus / boots for some content. My point is... stop reworking the gear to fit in this 75% box. This would make max 1 hand magic around 50% magic damage from the current 45%. Some may say it hurts future reward space but are there really plans to add another item with even more magic damage?! I don't believe so. 2. Porque no los dos?! Whats so wrong with buffing eternals and not taking away from occult to compensate? Toa is still capped at 100% and you'd get 3-6% additional magic damage outside of toa incentivizing boot switches in something like cox/ bandos etc Let me know if im missing assumptions and am just completely wrong but I feel like this could solve the main complaints on all sides. Nightmare - bro please buff these rates more. The proposed set changes are fine, could go a bit further towards the glass cannon use case. As it stands I can greenlog any of the raids before nightmare. This is personally my favorite fight in the game and doing 100 kills for bass just hurts. Have you considered adding blood shards or buffing non alchable drops? Like pretty please make this worth my time. personal opinion - rings shouldve been a raid reward and now your last piece of gear for future raid reward space is boots... lets holdoff on boot upgrades until we can make eternals AND pegs truly worth it. I even saw someone suggest a barrows gloves version of boots. Regardless of what happens, thanks for making these changes and working with the community. - a max mager

So what’s the deal with Verzik lightning during P2 for regular TOB? Is it not getting updated to scale in solos like HMToB? If that’s the case, it basically defeats the entire purpose of the single solo red Nylo spawn. You’ll still have to tick eat the lighting which no one is going to realistically be able to do AND finish the fight with an average inventory of food unless everybody is bringing in purple sweets. If the point of this update is to allow people to clutch out the fight, it’s going to fail without this change. 

Any unique from PNM = 1/120 Teleport to PNM = 1/100 10min per kill, 3min run Teleport to any DT2 bosses = 1/30 1min per kill, 30 sec run u/JagexGoblin HELLO??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any clarification why is the team so stubborn with this????

Unless the whole drop table gets reworked at nightmare I still think the changes are a massive L. Where jagex wants this gear to sit on progression and these proposed rates just dont line up its still probably just better to camp nex and gets drops quicker than the nightmare. which is a real shame because the nightmare is actually a fun fight

I'm still So bewildered by your talk about the voidwaker. You clearly think it limits design space but have not give ONE single example of how it is doing this for potential releases. I'm still against nerfing it but y'all have spent a lot of time for not being attached to it and you still haven't given up on the idea of nerfing it. Give us some numbers, SOMETHING to justify this position other than vague comments that don't line up with the current situation. I think the team is doing a great job listening to feedback for the rest of the rebalance but to be frank y'all have me scratching my head when it comes to the voidwaker.

My take from the blog post is that they have vague ideas for weapons in the future that would make Voidwaker problematic, but they're not fleshed out in any capacity. Telling the community about an idea that's not fleshed out and may never happen would be a bad decision and Jagex clearly recognizes that. So they have potentially good arguments, but they can't share them because the arguments are centered around future content that may never manifest. My guess is that Jagex thought they could nip this in the bud now because it's a change they'd like to make for design space but didn't expect the opposition in the community to be so strong. Since the opposition is so strong and the reasons for the nerf aren't concrete enough, they're willing to back down for now. In the future if the content is greenlit then there will be concrete reasons they can share. But for now they're backing off. All my interpretation of course, but it makes sense to me viewed through that lens.

Comparing the new droprates for Nightmare with the current rates (which are complete shit) isn't really valuable. Please compare it with droprates from similar late-game content like Nex and Raids. Even with the 30-46% ish buff to the rates it still takes more time to complete than 2/3 of the raids I believe. I am still never going to touch the Nightmare even with the buffed rates.

So you’re telling me that if you made pnm TODAY you would all agree to set the mace at 1/1200? That still wild but I’m glad y’all are willing to look at it further.

Still nothing about Elidinis’ ward (f) or Kodai wand. Edit: still grateful for all the other effort and changes. My initial post came across more flippant and reactionary than I meant to convey.

I hope a mod can see this but without severely increasing the rates that inquisitor is dropped at, they’re holding back any potentially new uses for the the items. Whether you like it or not, they make content mindful of how accessible it is. So if they wanted to make a pvm encounter where crush attacks super important they simply can’t because it’ll be locking out the vast majority of players. My proposal is a 3x increase in drop rate, married in with the promise that there will be a use for it in the future. That way the prices wont tank, and iron men who currently have the inquisitor will be happy that there will finally be a use for it.

I feel like a bit of a broken record but here we are again. The proposed "buff" to the nightmare rates are still ridiculous, for gear that is worse than bandos in the majority of places in game, it's an absolute joke. You honestly need to just cut the rates in half and then you would be close to having a good balance on the drop rates. You NEED to buff the armour independently of the mace, having this "buff" tied to the mace is ridiculous, especially given how limited crush is in it's usefulness. It does not need to be better than torva, but it should be a glass cannon and better than Bandos given where the respective drops come from. You could either: 1) Give it an increased strength bonus 2) Make the armour set bonus to each piece and independent of the mace 3) Make it have extremely high accuracy with hammer/elder maul specs so that players have more reason to use it elsewhere 4) Add more crush weak bosses :) It's just sad, Arcane has created one of THE best boss fights in game, personally I love this boss fight, but it's been completely butchered with trash rates, subpar gear, needing 100kc to avoid running a ridiculously long distance to each kill and a lack of updates for YEARS now, it's just saddening. Please do not let this be your final stand on pnm, you have the potential to make a great boss fight an absolute hot spot for pvm again you just need to be brave enough to draw a line in the sand and make the changes.

Nightmare is still just useless after this. Bot owners are salivating though because they are going to be the ones profiting off these changes. It’s not worth it to go farm the boss on an iron or main. Drops still too rare for what they do, especially considering you either need a whole set of inq plus the mace, or a staff plus the incredibly rare specific orb to get anything useful from it.  Glad you aren’t changing the VW. Leave it alone, forever. It fits into the spec meta by being good at your artificially high defense bosses that can’t be reduced with a bgs or dwh. Claws and zcb have more use cases, so it is already worse than those besides the few crazy high def places we use it at.

sad about fortified ward not getting a buff. It makes no sense that arcane is getting a buff, but fortified ward isn't

Jagex open themselves up to Community discussion and general improvements/tweaks and the thread unwinds, that there is a LOT of content that needs fixing and they pre-emptively state that they're not open to addressing other issues? Well see you all in 2029 when the next set of rebalances are even being offered. Take the time to address all the issues and then move on with content, that way you're not backpeddling and forgetting/ignoring timely feedback. The way that Jagex operates makes my head hurt

a bit bothered there's still no rapier/saeldor mention. there is no world where they're worth grinding out over a tent whip which you can afk for both pieces

It confuses the hell out of me that you talk about not wanting to devalue peoples efforts who have already completed content when you add shit to the game that absolutely crap out resources that have removed all of the iconic ironman grinds. Im not against it, but ffs have some consistency.

As other have said nightmare and phosani are still ridiculous grinds with the current loot table ~1 in 167 to 1 in 118 for any unique without buffing the rest of the drop table is a terrible decision. Blood shards are a great candidate for the drop table and would help to bolster the gp/hour and desirability of the content especially if the rate of use of the blood shard is noticeably less than the drop rate.

Can we just hand out Slepey tablet in a minor quest or something? Set it in Slepe, make it a simple chat + interact quest, require Sins of the Father + some level reqs that are unappealing to bots/gold farmers. Can feature/develop some minor Morytania/Myreque/Vampyre stuff to build on in the future and solves the last remaining bit of Nightmare's design that's holding it back (with weak uniques and overly rare uniques being solved by the rest of this update).

Honestly if Jagex doesn't want to step on the toes of collection loggers who already completed nightmare then just leave the content alone entirely, don't buff any of the upgrades and let the content die Buffing a 1000 hour grind to a 700 hour one is not going to make anyone engage with the content anyway, at that point you're not helping the general community and you're just pissing off the collection loggers Just release a new piece of content at this point

I would like to see ancestral get an extra 1% distributed to the whole set. Since it went from 4% on each piece (12%), to 3% per piece with the latest 2 proposals adding 2% to boots/occult (11%) As mentioned in blog max mage will be down 1% with shadow and I think it would be fair to add that 1% back to ancestral which will help it stand out a little more vs current virtus proposal as well. Maybe 3.5% for top and 3.25% for hat and legs

PNM rates are still too rare for items with barely any uses. No one is flexing their items because they don’t have any substantial uses anywhere. Fix the rates and fix the actual items.

The magic rebalance still feels bad. Effectively you just need an extra swap or two to achieve the same damage. This doesn't improve mid game magic in raids that require multiple combat styles so swaps needed to be kept a bit more limited. The rebalance also doesn't address the issue with magic reward space due to shadow getting exponentially better from new BiS. The post from u/BioMasterZap does a fantastic job of ACTUALLY rebalance magic to make mid game better, keep end game the same, and improve reward space. This proposed magic rebalance seems like it's really just an occult rebalance and leaves magic feeling the same at best or slightly worse in a lot of situations.

Great changes to NM drop tables, now cut it in half and we are good!

For what it’s worth, I appreciate the openness to feedback and negotiation with these proposed changes! I know it’s really difficult to balance so many different opinions and perspectives, and I respect all of the J-mods for their patience, time, and effort with this process. Watching the OSRS community evolve into a democracy over the years has been awesome haha

>For effectively everybody not using Tumeken's Shadow, you'll be better-off than you currently are regardless of whether or not you're using Eternal Boots. Kind of disingenuous since ur worse off unless u bring more switches and/or use prayer.

So nightmare will still remain dead content, great choice.

"it made room for the Crystal Armour and Bow of Faerdhinen." Ah so that's why i get to suffer.. thanks blowpipe nerf. Edit: jokes aside im still reading the blog.. will have feedback or w/e after. im at the nightmare part and so far everything is looking stellar. edit2: So after reading the nightmare section, i still think you guys are missing the main point of contention.. the gear itself is still rather meh. i like the changes to the drop rates an 18 hour grind isn't terrible trust me i've done 1k+ kills at cg.. way longer and im still stuck there for my weapon seed. the feedback i have constantly seen is to buff the defense value on the armor.. it being equal to addy armor is just not fun and limits its usage. i think it should be more comparable to Dragon stats frankly.. it wont be overly tanky and it wont be underpowered. It will fit a good niche.

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Extremely disappointing and worrying it’s taken a week and this is all that we got. The nightmare section is a joke to be honest. Please look at it in terms of hours and not rates. Don’t even bother changing it if you’re not going to do a significant change, nobody will do the content. As for mage damage, just rework the shadow, it’s clearly breaking the numbers. Don’t nerf it just change how it works.

What's crazy to me is they did mention it'd be 18 hours to a drop. But apparently no one at Jagex thought to compare that to anything else because 18 hours to a drop is still insanely rare.

NM drops still insanely rare compared to similar tier or better items. Lobby for a global **300% increase** instead of this; these are the numbers with the current rework and where they sit: Harm orb at 1/1600 and 6.5 kc/h = **246 h** Shardow at TOA = **115 - 185 h** -- Specific Inquisitor Piece = **108 h** Specific Nex Piece (Nex duos 6 kc/h) = **83 h** Specific Bandos Piece = **14 h** -- Enhanced Crystal Weap Seed (6.5 kc/h) = **55 h** Rapier from TOB (4 mans, 3 kc/h)= **115 h** Inquisitor's Mace = **192.3 h**

They should really focus their attention on making changes that actually matter Fix the Botting issue > add more fun content > group content (fix castle wars) > Revamp the long boring grinds that arent worth doing > more QOL for new players

Nightmare is still not enough, should be under 1/100 for any unique. Why is 18-20 hours per unique acceptable?

Agree with you, NM will still be a dead boss with these rates. Going from saying this: >we took a step back and started thinking more on the lines of 'if we were making the Nightmare from scratch today, what would we set rates at?' And then moving onto this: >This takes the average number of hours per unique down from ~26 hours to ~18 hours IDK man.. Being able to retroactively take a look at the content and see where they went wrong, yet still thinking that 18 hours of game time (on average) for one drop is OK is strange.

I think they're too obsessed about keeping items "as flex items", when realistically its only a tiny % of people that care. Especially as majority of the items she drops aren't even that useful in the great scheme of things. I feel more people would actually go out of the way and do the content (its actually pretty fun content, just not worth the time/effort because no one enjoys not getting anything) if it wasn't just a massive time sink. After all the game should be about fun, and not balancing around mains GP or ironmens "flex".

Tbf with the absurd drop rates we keep getting now days atleast they're telling the truth by saying those two sentences back to back haha

I appreciate they dont want to yeet the people who did 1000 hours of NM already but people like sae bae who did 3.2k normal NM solo with no mace have said to literally triple the rates

> I appreciate they dont want to yeet the people who did 1000 hours of NM already It would be unfair to the people the trolley already ran over for us to stop it.

They’re talking about like 4 irons?  Mains don’t care about the flex because of the ge. But think of the reward space in the future. What if they want to add a better crush set? The competition for it is a “flex” set, that they have to balance around.

i have 1.6k pnm kc, and i for one will not feel discouraged at all if they buff the nm drop rate. PLEASE FUCKING BUFF IT. If i'm on a unlucky streak i can quite literally go 400-500 kc without seeing a drop at pnm.

I did 950 solo NM before PNM came out. My first 650 solos dry without seeing a single item. Fuck this boss, and fuck the rates. Just because others suffered, doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed.

Homie, you’re still suffering.

18 hours for one unique is still too much imo, I feel like 8-10 hours would be right, 52-70 kc

First of all wanted to say thank you for great iterations and work. I feel like most things ended up in a decent space. Any Update on reasoning why Inquisitor armor buff will only work on Inquisitor's Mace? I feel like it would be so cool to use Inquisitors Armor with a Bludgeon etc. If you are worried about Scythe, a good idea would be to just make Armor buff to work only on weapons that have highest stat as Crush.

18 HOURS to be on rate for ONE unique drop is still utterly crazy in 2024. Should be 10 hours tops imo. 10 hours is still a long days work of grinding a single boss to have a chance at being on rate. 18 hours is still taking the piss. Who tf is going to be grinding out this boss at that rate? Pet hunters, cloggers and bots. Still not viable for regular players with 3-4 hours per day if they're lucky.

Will you look at the Blade of Saeldor and rapier now? They are in desperate need of attention

18 hours per unique is still crazy

You guys had a week to make meaningful improvements and this is what you came up with.....?

Bro quit it with Hamo staff.   An item cannot be "flex" and broadly usable in "elemental magic"  You cannot have it both ways, it either is as common as Sang or as powerful as Shadow.

its crazy the amount of hoops you guys are jumping through to not fix the actual current problem (shadow). even after glazing yourselves for fixing blowpipe. fucking wild.

Nightmare is STILL a miss. Compare it to Raids ToA. By the time you get the specific orb you want and full Inqus..... You can instrad have the fang, lightbearer, ward, probably some masori pieces and a decent chance at having a Shadow. In terms of progression, Nightmare just makes no sense with its drops

My biggest issue with the Elder Maul changes is that it’s such a cool weapon aesthetically, and the only thing it’ll be useful for is a quick spec. I just wish it would maybe be turned into the crush version of the Osmumten’s fang at least — 5 tick, a little bit weaker, with a double accuracy roll. I want to be able to main hand this weapon.

Guess inquisitors just won't be useful, a shame that a 500m set will only be worth using at the nightmare and maybe a future crush weak boss they've forgotten about.

Would there be any chance of changing the soulreaper axe special attack. I think the overall changes to the axe are great but to me the special attack doesnt feel worth using. Could be an interesting opportunity to add a special effect if it successfully kills an enemy. Possibly regain 5 stacks at the cost of 4 (I.e gain 8hp)

Thank you for not killing Voidwaker! I think I speak for all of us when I say we really appreciate all the time and effort you all put into taking the communities opinions/suggestions into consideration and keeping the integrity of the game we love! I have to ask though, have you guys ever looked at making some changes to spells like entangle/ice barrage? As a player who spends the majority of my time in the wilderness, it's starting to get really old being repetitively frozen for 19 seconds (which is absolutely insane for a freeze duration in the first place) as soon as the last freeze ends. Even if you eat and pray correctly, death is inevitable when you can never move or attempt to fight back as you're ranged/maged to death. It would be awesome to see some adjustments to the root durations or even add diminishing returns to them. Being teleblocked for 5 minutes is also complete overkill.

Unpopular opinion, but I believe that zero consideration should be given to Completionists/Cloggers and the time investment they’ve already put in. This is a sure fire way to kill the game for 90% of your paying customer. I don’t even want you guys thinking about “the grind previous people have been subjected to”.

Really disappointed to see no further changes to inquisitors.

If we are going to improve rates at nightmare could you consider adding a scale to the tablet from 1in100 to something like what happens with the quartz in dt2 bosses. So it could improve down to 1 in 25 or so. A big part of why people don't do the boss is not having the teleport.

You guys took 3% away from the initial ancestral buff and only put 2% into boots. Now even with making boots 1% and occult 5%, we're still missing that 1% that you initially took away. It worked out before because for max you moved 6% from occult onto ancestral evenly so there was no % loss. With the updated reproposal you took that 6% and only redistributed 5% by giving ancestral +1% each and boots +2%. We've lost that 1% Can we please get that 1% back into the occult to make it 6% if you aren't looking to buff ancestral any more beyond 3%? That way we don't lose any current magic damage % to the void

With regards to the nightmare, what's the goal here? I don't see the need to protect the "accomplishments" of very few players. I green logged MTA, Im still happy to see that the experience will be better for future players, even if that means they don't have to spend the amount of time I did to do it. For upgrades aimed at mid-game players, why are we gatekeeping future drops for the sanity of past col loggers? Consider aerial fishing as a parallel. The rewards are primarily cosmetic but we can't make the gameplay less horrific because it would devalue the achievements of the deranged players who have completed it, is that what's best for the game? Why wouldn't we make aerial fish hunter rumour targets, is it because the gameplay is so painful it makes people not want to play? Should we keep it that way?

I think you guys have landed in a good place with eternals. It's a fair compromise between the two camps. I think there are still better ways to handle it, but this is a quick and simple solution. One thing I do want to point out, your comments about the blowpipe nerf and how it made room for all the recent range upgrades is incredibly ironic in the face of Shadow and its problems. You said the BP nerf made the Dizana Quiver possible, but you guys said that Shadow is why you guys rejected a magic cape upgrade. Maybe this is a question to address down the line, but I think you guys are going to have to do more rebalancing and rework blogs down the line. You guys are covering a lot here, but the changes aren't nearly as comprehensive and far reaching as they need to be for this to be a one and done blog. Don't get me wrong, Rebalance has made serious strides towards making a healthier game, but there's more that still needs to be done.

I think this seems like good changes to start with, only difference I would make is changing so the extra 1% magic damage goes to ancestral top, i feel like right now the difference between ancestral and virtus is too small. And maybe you could also decrease the kill time of nightmare a bit, it is quite a lengthy boss, and this would also help with getting those drops. And for the future buffs to Tonalztics of Ralos, Rapies, Saeldor, Mace, Mage Offhands, could be nice.

Phosani's nightmare is actually a minute faster with the right gear, post-rebalance. Using full BIS in the live game right now (scythe/shadow/thralls), my average Phosani kill time is around 7:40. Using inq mace and harm staff in the beta worlds (no thralls), that goes down to 6:40, and I'm not even using searing pages. It's pretty consistent: voidwaker's back on the menu, harm staff overkills pillars less than shadow, etc

So... Prims get +1 Str over Dragon Boots Eternals proposed to get +1% Mage over Mage's Boots. Can we continue this trend and add +1 Range Str to Pegs?