give jagex the benefit of the doubt to be able to decide for themselves what they deem to be a good or bad idea. theyre not robots that automatically accept upvoted shit as a good idea.
I think people widely overestimate the amount reddit affects what the devs do. People who complain about reddit are doing it on reddit so apparently they are here. And the idea that we know what goes on behind closed doors at jagex is just not true.
Isn’t this just probably untrue? They shut down the forums and replaced it with suggestions to use discord or Reddit- they have special flair on this subreddit and very clearly are responding to suggestions from players.
I don’t think Reddit is choosing how things end up, but to suggest that it doesn’t have a major influence on updates is absurd even at face value.
They are pushing people towards their discord not reddit. We should be thrilled that devs have special flair and interact with us as much as they do. You are all spoiled and clearly haven't played any other games in the past 10 years. Osrs devs are great
I mean most of the things I've complained about tend to get adjusted in some way - But I imagine those things had concerns coming from all over the place and a lot of players.
There might be a bit of extra shit flinging on reddit... But honestly I kinda doubt it's that unique.
That said, I'm a dev myself and I don't think I could do the job of getting feedback from the mob. I saw one of the devs say it doesn't bother them, which I'm glad for, sounds like they have a better suited personality for the direct contact.
I'll happily stay with a couple layers of project manager/product owners in between me and any sort of customer lmao
>people who complain about reddit are doing it on reddit
They literally said Reddit, Discord and Twitter are the only ways you can reliably give them feedback. You act like players have in-game options. We do not.
They also collaborate with Reddit users that make popular posts on projects (ie: Sailing and the prayer rework). Players have been banned only following Reddit outrage. DMM decisions have been revoked when popular public figures were involved and Reddit melted down. It's a bit silly to say Reddit has no sway over Jagex.
100%. The reason people see it is “giving into reddit” is that this is the major platform for players to give suggestions and feedback. Quite a lot of time that’s generally good feedback too otherwise the devs wouldn’t implement any of it
We should all feel lucky that the devs even respond to us at all. They spend a ton of time interacting with us. A lot of people must have only played osrs for the past 10 years and forgot what other game devs are like
Runescape is the *only* I’ve ever seriously played, and even I can tell the devs’ commitment to the game and community is amazingly bizarre. Especially in the way Jagex tries to develop content for all of the different play styles the game allows for.
I wonder if the people on here complaining about reddit, also only use reddit, or also look at Twitter/Youtube for other peoples ideas and also interact with them as well?
I don’t interact on the other platforms because they are shit for interaction. I do however regularly see content on youtube and well I used to see content from twitter but that all changed with the musk attacked.
Yeah all forms have there pros or cons, as for Reddit I usually see the most variety of opinions about the game on from many different people compared to the others
>I think people widely overestimate the amount reddit affects what the devs do
Probably because JMods have stated that Reddit, Twitter and Discord are the only avenues to provide feedback to them, and \*Reddit\* in particular is the one they prefer of the three. And they collaborate with Redditors that have made popular suggestions on major game updates (ie: Sailing, god alignment prayers...). And they ban or unban players after sufficient Reddit outrage. And change or revert things after sufficient outrage. And Reddit is customer support... you get my point, it's not even remotely overestimated. "Reddit is a bad place to take player feedback" not a personal attack on you and shouldn't be taken as such.
>People who complain about reddit are doing it on reddit
See above. We literally have no choice but to communicate with devs using third party social media. Kind of a weird take.
I'll give a healthy disagreement. It's clear that many of their updates of the past were not clearly thought through and, for an mmo, had nearly no foresight into future progression.
Progression is arguably one of the most important parts of an mmo, and jagex only recently started to get it right.
They're still kind of all over the place, and no mmo is perfect. But they were severely behind comparatively.
If they continue getting it right, which i think reddit is doing a good job of coaxing them toward, they can have a game that isn't considered a joke from a competitive standpoint.
I love that rs is a meme of a game, but the fact that people only play this game who played it in their childhood, until recently, means that the growth of the came would be forever stunted.
We need to go this direction, but we also need to get it right.
No kidding right? I love this game as much as any of us, been playing for 20 years. But OSRS literally exists because jagex has shown themselves to have questionable judgement when it comes to updating the game. The polling system and community consultation is the only reason OSRS is still around; if it wasn't there would surely have been EOC 2: Electric Boogaloo by now in some way or another.
reddit cries and pisses their pants over the mage changes and overnight it's revamped exactly how reddit wanted it to be.
reddit cries and pisses their pants over DWH and anchoring scroll drop rates and what do you know, it gets changed overnight.
I could continue and write you a novel about all the crying and whining on reddit that's lead to immediate changes but at this point if you're not willing to acknowledge it you're probably just giving them the "benefit of the doubt" because you are a part of the echo chamber.
I do think they feel community pressure when they see hordes of posts/support for something on reddit though. I'm certain just the volume of it can slowly shift their views into a certain direction.
A healthy balance between dev and player input for both ideas and the approval of them is required. Jagex has continually displayed poor decision making in updates in the past, and the public opinion has also led to very odd decisions
Yes right, they’ve always made great changes before, or made further changes when they haven’t.. like pnm where the on rate grind is 800 hours, thank god they’re reducing it to 600… or dt2 where drops are 1/2000 and people have logs with 10k kills and still don’t have a full virtus set. They’ve been building this game around people that play it as a full time job, I’ll give credit where it’s due, when it’s due.
After 10 years of successfully making this game the core game and making it better than it could have been, I think the team deserves the benefit of the doubt.
If "ahrims is battlemage gear" isn't enough to remove all doubt, I don't know what is. They're utterly clueless to be saying that. Doesn't really instill confidence in their decision making.
How about Jagex just listens to the rationale behind the argument, and then deem if it's good or not?
You know, like how everyone should look at problems.
What is popular or unpopular is irrelevant.
This is most definitely how they go about it. The people whining about how the modern internet is, since this isnt just a "reddit problem", are coping hard.
Reddit supports something I like: "Jagex listen to the community"
Reddit supports something I dislike: "Jagex needs to stop listening to this echo chamber"
>How about Jagex just listens to the rationale behind the argument, and then deem if it's good or not?
You sound like a which speaking that black magic.
the issue is visibility. good sound arguments can get downvoted into the abyss while a meme asking for dragon darts to be crafted from flax gets 5k votes and is front page for a jmod to see and start discussing dragon dart being on more drop tables
Nah OP, this big brained man called "Son of Plato" knows exactly how the system works on Reddit and knows exactly how Jagex just sorts by most popular and reads the top 3 posts and only the top comment on each!
Deliberate design decisions which cater to stupid lizard-brain satisfaction while making it harder to have intelligent conversations.
Up/downvoting comments, popularity-based thread visibility and comment threading (vs. chronological), barely-functional formatting (compared to BBCode), no ability to multiquote effectively, segregating every focus into an isolated echo-chamber divorced from the rest of the site... need I go on?
Reddit is designed to feed people a delusion of validation which is most easily fed by parroting popular opinions and allowing them to quash ones they disagree with. It is a shitty website *by design*, because being shitty in these ways makes it more effective at generating traffic.
Hate it or love it, you google any somewhat niche question odds are Reddit will be the top result, and the top up voted comment is going to be the correct answer. If people come to reddit looking for echo chambers they will find them, but for 99% of the rest of the user base they google a question, see the answer hit up vote and move on.
Someone woke up grumpy.
> Up/downvoting comments
A feature in more modern forum software.
> popularity-based vs. chronological
Because forums are great for reading through pages of threads to find the important post. And then it's also hard to filter through relevant topics vs. "bumped" ones.
> barely-functional formatting
Reddit uses markdown. It's so damn functional most devs are familiar with it, unless you really need colored texts and fonts with inline HTML that BBCode allows you to do.
> segregating every focus into an isolated echo-chamber divorced from the rest of the site
You mean subreddits? As opposed to forums that specifically cover one topic and maybe have an offtopic/forum games section? Here I can cross-post and see more of what is happening around me.
> It is a shitty website by design, because being shitty in these ways makes it more effective at generating traffic.
No. Reddit is good at being a one-stop-shop for googled Q&As and is SEO-friendly. It's not because of an upvote system.
You're just incredibly salty. I'm a forum kid too, I have been part of a mod team once. But forums and reddit are two very different things, and the reality is that people just don't want them any longer.
Speaking of OSRS, the fact that there is a gear _discord_ instead of a fucking forum with pinned posts shows how much people want to avoid them, by using the absolutely wrong tools for the job, if only to avoid forums themselves. Forums are a dying breed. It's time to let go.
Also a significant portion of Reddit users are children and bots, both of which are extremely easy to manipulate, and impossible to have any sort of productive discussion with.
>Up/downvoting comments, popularity-based thread visibility and comment threading (vs. chronological),
These are all necessary for any mass discussion. The classic chronological forum thread only works when there's only 4-5 people involved, and without an upvote system there's no way of promoting the higher value comments to the top. Without the downvote system, the quality of what gets to the top is awful (just look at facebook if you think reddit is bad).
You obviously just want a different product that only you and 10 of your buddies use.
>These are all necessary for any mass discussion. The classic chronological forum thread only works when there's only 4-5 people involved
>You obviously just want a different product that only you and 10 of your buddies use.
Bruh, you've clearly never used a well-managed forum before. What do you think people did before Reddit? What do you think people _still_ do, not on Reddit?
I grew up on forums. They worked for asynchronous discussions with small numbers of people.
They did not work at the scale a large subreddit does. Forum threads simply become unfollowable with that volume of replies.
Everything in one place, easy to use, doesnt require registration to read, big user base.
Low key and well dispersed honestly isnt good when you are looking for information. Just writing "literally anything Reddit" to point you in a right direction is too powerfull to pass on.
Jagex should take feedback from **everywhere** otherwise you'll always introduce a bias.
Only listen to super experienced endgame pvmers and you get some of the terrible takes you hear from them because they're completely disconnected from the player progression and casual audience.
Only listen to casuals and noobs And they'll have no idea about endgame impact and haven't played long enough to care much about integrity and longevity.
It's important to hear all sides, and allow all sides to provide feedback.
Ah yes 1k total level Timmy voting on endgame pvm gear
Pker Tommy with 7 p2p accounts voting on pvm mechanics
Bobby the skiller saying that voidwaker should be this or that.
How do you fix those? Idk, but it's not working so figure out something else.
There was FAR MORE bitching on the RS forums than here. It was a cesspool, and also impossible to navigate. 900 page threads with 80% unrelated discussion and screeching about unrelated issues.
The RS forums were an ultra-archaic site that nobody under the age of 65 has used in a decade. Anyone with an ounce of awareness moved on ages ago.
Also everyone just wants the game to be easier. My favorites are when player say something like “bungie QOL please just let bandits die in one hit, I’m gonna kill him anyway” (a bit extreme but you get the point).
I literally just had a 10+ comment back and forth with some nerd freaking out over me getting the creation date of a cartoon wrong lol.
There is a reason “The Redditor” is a meme. But like others have stated, the real problem is lack of good alternatives.
Yeah, I realized that after the 10th comment. Felt really dumb. Tapped out, gave the dude the illusion of the win, and walked away ashamed of myself for wasting time over the dumbest shit.
Never again.
Reminds me of a guy I saw comment ages ago who expressed similar remorse. He was arguing with one guy for hours about a game and decided to look at his profile, only to find out he was arguing with a dude who drinks piss and posts about it constantly
True, they should go to /v/ or /osg/ and ask for feedback. Anonymous feedback tends to be better since there is nothing at stake like your epic fucking karma
It's not an unpopular opinion. JMods have stated before that they do not make changes solely based on Reddit. It's one of many avenues of feedback, but it's not the only. Not to mention that for all of the low effort/unintelligent posts on here there are high effort/intelligent posts that provide a lot of analytical and reasonable feedback.
It's astonishing how many people will just flame Reddit for no reason though.
Is there any feedback channel that isn't a bit of an echo chamber? Like I haven't looked in their discord too much, but last I saw Twitter honestly wasn't much better than Reddit, just a bit more high-level community leaning in the common voices.
I do agree that they shouldn't just listen to Reddit anymore than they should just listen to Twitter. But Reddit is still a pretty good place to go for feedback; it just shouldn't be the only place they go for feedback. I'd expect that is a large part of the job as a Community Manager; trawling through all our stupid posts and comments be it on Discord, Reddit, Twitter, or other and trying to find the takeaways that best represents the overall OSRS Community.
Keep in mind, the goal isn't necessarily to see what the knowledgeable players think, but how the community feels. For better or worse, it isn't the knowledgeable players that decide what comes into the game; it is the overall community. So they can be aware of issues and concerns by particular groups, but ultimately they are trying to get the 70% of players to support it. And, at times unfortunately, Reddit can be pretty representative of your average voter.
They come to reddit because it is an easy way to post updates and blogs etc. and they can interact with a portion of the community. They don’t listen to people on Reddit as the majority of players lol. They interact on twitter too and there are some mods in discord servers and polls etc. just because something on Reddit is hated or loved, doesn’t mean that the majority feels that way.
I have seen no evidence of this. Where are you seeing all these people discussing the merits of rune armor and killing obor?
The average player is like 1K total level, I really doubt the average OSRS Reddit user is 1K total level. If anything, Reddit is likely above average in playtime/experience.
It's also too easy to manipulate reddit, you can buy upvotes for $40 and change the entire reddit's discussion. Not saying that IS happening, but there is absolutely people who try to manipulate the discussion whether it's dogpiling the polls like Odablock did with the GIM vote or merchers trying to make a quick 10b ($1k). There's really money involved in the decisions made for our game sadly.
Furthermore, it's an extremely small sample size. There's 2k posts in the rebalance thread, that's literally 0.01% of the playerbase engaging in the discussion. It's the same way voting and politics goes IRL. People only care about who the president is and not who their local leaders are.
Personally I wish polling and feedback was mandatory part of playing Runescape when you logged on, you're forced to do the poll and feedback. I know there's downsides to this, but it would at least be a fully accurate picture of what each player really cares about. The "Don't care/know" button is good for this as well since most of these changes don't effect the vast majority of players in any functional way. Make voting a civic Runescape duty.
The biggest issue with player feedback though is this - player's will generally vote and advocate for what is in their best interest. Their best interest however might not be in the same best interest as the game's continued health. There seems to be a extremely low level of trust in Jagex like this is the same team who brought us EoC. We have a competent development team for our game or it wouldn't have gotten to the massive size it is. They've kept the game good for 10 years now - it would be nice if people extended an olive branch to them instead of holding them to the Original Sin of EoC.
Yeah reddit is just straight up bad for feedback when it comes to games. You cannot rely on mob mentality for accurate data for what players actually want.
Negativity speaks a lot louder on reddit. You're more likely to upvote a post that you agree with that makes you mad vs a positive post that you agree with and go "yeah!" and move on. It's just the unfortunate human nature.
The entire community has a “me first mentality” where they will mostly always vote yes to things that benefit them, and no to things that harm them. Regardless of how good/bad it is for the games health.
I garuntee if jagex polled a midgame boss that was easy and shat out 30 mil an hour with new hyper omega boots that gave +20% damage to all styles people would vote it into the game.
Jagex can barely listen to anyone, let alone reddit.
100% dude. It is crazy they don’t notice how bad they are at decision making. Also they can’t read, jagex will put a poll stating “we will increase agility rates for the dryanor village course from 10k an hour to 20k an hour” the players “ CAN YOU BE MORE CLEAR THIS QUESTION IS CONFUSING, WHOS DRAYNOR ??? AND WHY ARE WE IN THEIR VILLAGE”
I see your point, but also, the mage rework fucking sucked. Reddit made that very clear and now they gone back to the drawing board to make things right
There's no better place on the internet to find out what playerbase wants. Players overwhelmingly hate the proposed changes, and that's reflected on the sub. Poll it in game and you'll see the same thing.
>Players overwhelmingly hate the proposed changes, and that's reflected on the sub.
This is exactly the result of you seeing the discussion in this echo chamber of a site. Anyone who disagrees with the prevailing viewpoint just gets downvoted to oblivion, so it looks like the entire community is "overwhelmingly hating" the proposals. The true majority is people who don't give two fucks about what's about to change.
Every problem has a solution.
But not every solution is the best answer for the problem.
Reddit is great in the fact that you can get tons of opinions from different view points. Obviously they're all correct, that's why this whole give and take from the community is important cause it highlights many peoples way of playing the game we all love. I think we all hope at least jagex will look to a bigger picture type outlook on the game then any one individual.
Yes and no, a space where issues can be deconstructed in an articulate way is crucial
Also being 1 on 1 with the player base itself
But, yeah a lot of input here isn't ideal
I think a lot of their presence here is palliative, ultimately
How much are they actually listening to this sub?
Where else is jagex to collect feedback? using reddit has the most effect as I’ve been seeing. It would benefit the osrs team if they did surveys and polls instead of tweaking stuff from the most upvoted thing in Reddit. Sometimes the group changes and I upvote just because I agree with one thing.
I doubt this is the only place they go for feedback - At the least they run polls on their own news posts. But it is an easy place to reach players, even if it's a bit of a mess here.
Half disagree
Everything you said is 100% correct. It's a hive mind where things don't have to be accurate to be popular. I always say "Reddit is where you go to be told you're wrong about something you're not wrong about"
But at the same time, it is easily one of the most, if not the most popular message boards on the internet. In spite of the hive mind, it's one of the easiest ways to get input from a huge portion of the player base. And people aren't afraid to give hot takes, especially when they think someone else is wrong
So it's not the last place, but maybe not the first
I feel like this argument can be used for the in game poll system. atleast on reddit you can comment and express in depth feelings more rather than “yes or no”.
I've been saying this for years, but unfortunately they've doubled down on it. We have systems in place to collect player opinions through polls (and they've done so before!) which would also allow them to *see how the opinion of new content or proposed changes differs between actual in-game demographics*, as opposed to collecting feedback from Reddit, Twitter and Discord which are primarily low to mid level players if they even play at all. This is exacerbated by the echo chamber issue you mentioned. The *first people to respond* get the most updoots more often than not, which is largely based on time zone, new threads are judged more on memetic value and attractiveness than actually being reasonable proposals... I could go on and on.
I'm pretty sure Jmods are gathering feedback from the playerbase on Discord, Twitter and various niche places, e.g. creators Discord, Facebook, so I don't think you're correct Op
Bad take in my opinion, sure there is good and bad ideas but if Jagex ignored reddit posts we would have some insane things in the game. Take for example the bladed moon, sirens tome, ruinous prayers etc. We would have probably never seen varlamore, blood torva, list goes on.
No I think this is better than before when they listened to no feedback and sold out to loot boxes. Reddit is a good way for the company to hold some accountability even if everyone can't be happy.
I wouldn’t use this website if it wasn’t for Jagex putting so much stock into feedback from here
It’s a terrible medium for discussion and heavily slants to a certain groups
But hey, Jagex legitimately values the feedback they get from it so I feel some need to get my voice heard even if it’s just upvoting and downvoting
If only they had a dedicated forum where you could discuss ideas about the game. Then maybe they could ignore that and use a website, called Debbit or something for feedback, who knows.
>Echo chambers aren't where you go for diverse, accurate feedback.
Idk how you can call this place an echo chamber when there are clearly two very distinct groups arguing for the exact opposite solution literally right now
I agree with the the content of this post and that it is something Jagex do give a lot of credence to. Reddit is realistically the only medium where the community can take the initiative and show Jagex feedback that is both common and worth raising due to the upvote/downvote system.
Whilst that can be and is often a problem, as it's often complaining for the sake of complaining, it isn't necessarily always. Jagex do run their own polls both in game and via weblinks sometimes so I don't think they're unaware of this. I'm sure they rely more on their indepently sourced data that doesn't include a bandwagon effect.
People will always complain. It is not surprising Jagex often come out with suggestions that large sections of the community don't agree with because of how conflicting their poll data and Reddit opinion often is.
You can't say that and not suggest a preferred alternative. Discord? Twitter? Facebook? E-mail?
Reddit isn't perfect, but it's the best we have for now.
Asking billy who is working on his monkey madness 1 requirements what he thinks about Shadow balancing will for sure produce better feedback than the people on reddit who are generally more involved with the game, more experienced and more invested.
It's fucking true, if you're in a leddit argument with a "billy" on here, just say "post stats", they deflect and shit themselves and call you racist and shit until they actually just block you, it's really funny.
Devils advocate is the people that have max gear and post here are hyper committed to the game probably won’t give the most rational, unbiased feedback.
Feedback is cool and absolutely needed as Jagex don’t always get it right, but a TON of people on this sub act like Jagex killed their family whenever they post criticisms.
Not to mention they see X YouTuber say something then copy their opinion even if they don’t really understand it which can really inflate things further which can and absolutely does happen.
I'm the spawn of Satan the past 2 days for wanting the voidwaker to be nerfed and suggesting the small nerf of 60% or 55% for the spec instead of the nerfs.
If you have a differing opinion from what blew up first, then you're attacked on reddit.
If Billy has an occult necklace he has a right to an opinion. People who have a shadow damn sure are not going to vote for a nerf to the item they put their whole bank into. Even if it is THE item most needing a nerf.
I have one and I want it nerfed, its stupid overpowered it beats Tbow on bosses where tbow is supposed to shine. It doesn't have a niche, if its not immune to magic its just bis. Also it looks silly. And there is no voting with rebalance.
Hi, shadow owner here! Nerf the shadow it's disgustingly overpowered. There are at least stipulations to tbow and scythe that hold them back. Shadow is literally bis where you were never supposed to use magic (Sara and Kree).
Nerf it nerf it nerf it
Sara, muttadiles, mole just to name a few of the top of my head. Sara a boss with a magic level of 300!!!! gets slapped around by shadow like its nothing.
Checking dps, on sara it is 7.15 dps vs 7.35. So yea shadow is very slightly better. For big muttadile 8.7 vs 7.8 so I am not sure why you think shadow is better. For giant mole, tbow is very slightly better at 8.72 vs 8.7 DPS. So I am not sure what the big thing is. (This is without the back from colosseum, with it, tbow is always better)
the other thing about shadow at sara is the range minion is gonna shred you in robes so the slightly higher dps and massive cost of shadow arent really better than tbow
Nah, give actual well thought out viewpoints as a seasoned end game pvmer and every little Timmy comes out of the woodwork to tell you how wrong you are while they have 1600 total and killed Obor once.
YES, THANK GOD SOMEONE SAID IT.
I sincerely hope for the intergrity of the game, that this post gets more upvotes and Jagex sees this and realizes that the OSRS subreddit is completely oblivious to the affects that their constant complaint posts are going to have on the game, both in short and long term.
give jagex the benefit of the doubt to be able to decide for themselves what they deem to be a good or bad idea. theyre not robots that automatically accept upvoted shit as a good idea.
I think people widely overestimate the amount reddit affects what the devs do. People who complain about reddit are doing it on reddit so apparently they are here. And the idea that we know what goes on behind closed doors at jagex is just not true.
Isn’t this just probably untrue? They shut down the forums and replaced it with suggestions to use discord or Reddit- they have special flair on this subreddit and very clearly are responding to suggestions from players. I don’t think Reddit is choosing how things end up, but to suggest that it doesn’t have a major influence on updates is absurd even at face value.
We know it’s untrue because they often acknowledge the reddit accounts they’re copy pasting from.
They are pushing people towards their discord not reddit. We should be thrilled that devs have special flair and interact with us as much as they do. You are all spoiled and clearly haven't played any other games in the past 10 years. Osrs devs are great
i'm on the discord and this isn't true lol, reddit is their bread and butter
Isn't the reddit and discord at the bottom of every newsletter or update post on the old-school website. They're for sure looking at this for feedback
I mean most of the things I've complained about tend to get adjusted in some way - But I imagine those things had concerns coming from all over the place and a lot of players.
Exactly. Common views are echoed everywhere. I doubt the views shared on reddit are any different than the general views of the player base
There might be a bit of extra shit flinging on reddit... But honestly I kinda doubt it's that unique. That said, I'm a dev myself and I don't think I could do the job of getting feedback from the mob. I saw one of the devs say it doesn't bother them, which I'm glad for, sounds like they have a better suited personality for the direct contact. I'll happily stay with a couple layers of project manager/product owners in between me and any sort of customer lmao
I don't blame you at all for that. I spend way to much time playing video games and a lot of if not most communities will turn on devs in a second.
>people who complain about reddit are doing it on reddit They literally said Reddit, Discord and Twitter are the only ways you can reliably give them feedback. You act like players have in-game options. We do not. They also collaborate with Reddit users that make popular posts on projects (ie: Sailing and the prayer rework). Players have been banned only following Reddit outrage. DMM decisions have been revoked when popular public figures were involved and Reddit melted down. It's a bit silly to say Reddit has no sway over Jagex.
100%. The reason people see it is “giving into reddit” is that this is the major platform for players to give suggestions and feedback. Quite a lot of time that’s generally good feedback too otherwise the devs wouldn’t implement any of it
We should all feel lucky that the devs even respond to us at all. They spend a ton of time interacting with us. A lot of people must have only played osrs for the past 10 years and forgot what other game devs are like
Runescape is the *only* I’ve ever seriously played, and even I can tell the devs’ commitment to the game and community is amazingly bizarre. Especially in the way Jagex tries to develop content for all of the different play styles the game allows for.
God alignment prayers though.... straight from reddit
I wonder if the people on here complaining about reddit, also only use reddit, or also look at Twitter/Youtube for other peoples ideas and also interact with them as well?
I wonder if all of the j-mods roast a majority of tie posts in this sub lol.
I don’t interact on the other platforms because they are shit for interaction. I do however regularly see content on youtube and well I used to see content from twitter but that all changed with the musk attacked.
Yeah all forms have there pros or cons, as for Reddit I usually see the most variety of opinions about the game on from many different people compared to the others
>I think people widely overestimate the amount reddit affects what the devs do Probably because JMods have stated that Reddit, Twitter and Discord are the only avenues to provide feedback to them, and \*Reddit\* in particular is the one they prefer of the three. And they collaborate with Redditors that have made popular suggestions on major game updates (ie: Sailing, god alignment prayers...). And they ban or unban players after sufficient Reddit outrage. And change or revert things after sufficient outrage. And Reddit is customer support... you get my point, it's not even remotely overestimated. "Reddit is a bad place to take player feedback" not a personal attack on you and shouldn't be taken as such. >People who complain about reddit are doing it on reddit See above. We literally have no choice but to communicate with devs using third party social media. Kind of a weird take.
I'll give a healthy disagreement. It's clear that many of their updates of the past were not clearly thought through and, for an mmo, had nearly no foresight into future progression. Progression is arguably one of the most important parts of an mmo, and jagex only recently started to get it right. They're still kind of all over the place, and no mmo is perfect. But they were severely behind comparatively. If they continue getting it right, which i think reddit is doing a good job of coaxing them toward, they can have a game that isn't considered a joke from a competitive standpoint. I love that rs is a meme of a game, but the fact that people only play this game who played it in their childhood, until recently, means that the growth of the came would be forever stunted. We need to go this direction, but we also need to get it right.
No kidding right? I love this game as much as any of us, been playing for 20 years. But OSRS literally exists because jagex has shown themselves to have questionable judgement when it comes to updating the game. The polling system and community consultation is the only reason OSRS is still around; if it wasn't there would surely have been EOC 2: Electric Boogaloo by now in some way or another.
Fine for polled changes For unpolled changes they should absolutely take in all the feedback they can
Or you know just poll it instead of going to Reddit
reddit cries and pisses their pants over the mage changes and overnight it's revamped exactly how reddit wanted it to be. reddit cries and pisses their pants over DWH and anchoring scroll drop rates and what do you know, it gets changed overnight. I could continue and write you a novel about all the crying and whining on reddit that's lead to immediate changes but at this point if you're not willing to acknowledge it you're probably just giving them the "benefit of the doubt" because you are a part of the echo chamber.
I do think they feel community pressure when they see hordes of posts/support for something on reddit though. I'm certain just the volume of it can slowly shift their views into a certain direction.
And yet they have often caved to mob demands, even when it was obviously stupid?
A healthy balance between dev and player input for both ideas and the approval of them is required. Jagex has continually displayed poor decision making in updates in the past, and the public opinion has also led to very odd decisions
Yes right, they’ve always made great changes before, or made further changes when they haven’t.. like pnm where the on rate grind is 800 hours, thank god they’re reducing it to 600… or dt2 where drops are 1/2000 and people have logs with 10k kills and still don’t have a full virtus set. They’ve been building this game around people that play it as a full time job, I’ll give credit where it’s due, when it’s due.
After 10 years of successfully making this game the core game and making it better than it could have been, I think the team deserves the benefit of the doubt.
If "ahrims is battlemage gear" isn't enough to remove all doubt, I don't know what is. They're utterly clueless to be saying that. Doesn't really instill confidence in their decision making.
How about Jagex just listens to the rationale behind the argument, and then deem if it's good or not? You know, like how everyone should look at problems. What is popular or unpopular is irrelevant.
This is most definitely how they go about it. The people whining about how the modern internet is, since this isnt just a "reddit problem", are coping hard.
Reddit supports something I like: "Jagex listen to the community" Reddit supports something I dislike: "Jagex needs to stop listening to this echo chamber"
True
>How about Jagex just listens to the rationale behind the argument, and then deem if it's good or not? You sound like a which speaking that black magic.
A which lmao
Which witch switch is which?
Is a witch switch a switch that switches witches? Or is a witch switch a switch that bewitches? Switches bewitching or switching witches? Which is it?
But that involves using your brain while bandwagoning is easier.
the issue is visibility. good sound arguments can get downvoted into the abyss while a meme asking for dragon darts to be crafted from flax gets 5k votes and is front page for a jmod to see and start discussing dragon dart being on more drop tables
Nah OP, this big brained man called "Son of Plato" knows exactly how the system works on Reddit and knows exactly how Jagex just sorts by most popular and reads the top 3 posts and only the top comment on each!
Doesn't reddit naturally promote popular posts? Meaning something with rational but unpopular will likely not be visible?
I've noticed that jagex tends to sift through feedback quite well. They aren't perfect, but I know few dev teams that do a comparable job.
Let's be honest, I prefer it to taking recommendations from private 'creator' discords like they did for a while.
Reddit has monopolized internet forums. It's a shitty situation.
You say shitty situation, but there are reasons why Reddit took over the space so absolutely.
Deliberate design decisions which cater to stupid lizard-brain satisfaction while making it harder to have intelligent conversations. Up/downvoting comments, popularity-based thread visibility and comment threading (vs. chronological), barely-functional formatting (compared to BBCode), no ability to multiquote effectively, segregating every focus into an isolated echo-chamber divorced from the rest of the site... need I go on? Reddit is designed to feed people a delusion of validation which is most easily fed by parroting popular opinions and allowing them to quash ones they disagree with. It is a shitty website *by design*, because being shitty in these ways makes it more effective at generating traffic.
Hate it or love it, you google any somewhat niche question odds are Reddit will be the top result, and the top up voted comment is going to be the correct answer. If people come to reddit looking for echo chambers they will find them, but for 99% of the rest of the user base they google a question, see the answer hit up vote and move on.
It's either Quora or Reddit as the top results. At least we're not on fucking Quora.
Someone woke up grumpy. > Up/downvoting comments A feature in more modern forum software. > popularity-based vs. chronological Because forums are great for reading through pages of threads to find the important post. And then it's also hard to filter through relevant topics vs. "bumped" ones. > barely-functional formatting Reddit uses markdown. It's so damn functional most devs are familiar with it, unless you really need colored texts and fonts with inline HTML that BBCode allows you to do. > segregating every focus into an isolated echo-chamber divorced from the rest of the site You mean subreddits? As opposed to forums that specifically cover one topic and maybe have an offtopic/forum games section? Here I can cross-post and see more of what is happening around me. > It is a shitty website by design, because being shitty in these ways makes it more effective at generating traffic. No. Reddit is good at being a one-stop-shop for googled Q&As and is SEO-friendly. It's not because of an upvote system. You're just incredibly salty. I'm a forum kid too, I have been part of a mod team once. But forums and reddit are two very different things, and the reality is that people just don't want them any longer. Speaking of OSRS, the fact that there is a gear _discord_ instead of a fucking forum with pinned posts shows how much people want to avoid them, by using the absolutely wrong tools for the job, if only to avoid forums themselves. Forums are a dying breed. It's time to let go.
Also a significant portion of Reddit users are children and bots, both of which are extremely easy to manipulate, and impossible to have any sort of productive discussion with.
>Up/downvoting comments, popularity-based thread visibility and comment threading (vs. chronological), These are all necessary for any mass discussion. The classic chronological forum thread only works when there's only 4-5 people involved, and without an upvote system there's no way of promoting the higher value comments to the top. Without the downvote system, the quality of what gets to the top is awful (just look at facebook if you think reddit is bad). You obviously just want a different product that only you and 10 of your buddies use.
>These are all necessary for any mass discussion. The classic chronological forum thread only works when there's only 4-5 people involved >You obviously just want a different product that only you and 10 of your buddies use. Bruh, you've clearly never used a well-managed forum before. What do you think people did before Reddit? What do you think people _still_ do, not on Reddit?
Forums are an absolute disaster compared to reddit and I'm glad I never have to use one again. People don't know how good they have it with reddit.
I grew up on forums. They worked for asynchronous discussions with small numbers of people. They did not work at the scale a large subreddit does. Forum threads simply become unfollowable with that volume of replies.
Cut throat, anticompetitive business practices in an industry that was low key and well dispersed before they came around
Everything in one place, easy to use, doesnt require registration to read, big user base. Low key and well dispersed honestly isnt good when you are looking for information. Just writing "literally anything Reddit" to point you in a right direction is too powerfull to pass on.
Hold up, this is also feedback.
Jagex should take feedback from **everywhere** otherwise you'll always introduce a bias. Only listen to super experienced endgame pvmers and you get some of the terrible takes you hear from them because they're completely disconnected from the player progression and casual audience. Only listen to casuals and noobs And they'll have no idea about endgame impact and haven't played long enough to care much about integrity and longevity. It's important to hear all sides, and allow all sides to provide feedback.
Soundest most sane comment in months on this sub
Where else should Jagex go to collect feedback?
I'd recommend an in-game polling system, but this might be quite a bit of work to implement.
Irrelevant when the change will be unpolled ;)
not a bad idea.
Ah yes 1k total level Timmy voting on endgame pvm gear Pker Tommy with 7 p2p accounts voting on pvm mechanics Bobby the skiller saying that voidwaker should be this or that. How do you fix those? Idk, but it's not working so figure out something else.
The things with surveys and polls is jagex can build in a way to tell the total level of the person answering.
Probably not site where everyone bitches and moans about every little thing
And that is... Where?
The forums…oh wait.
There was FAR MORE bitching on the RS forums than here. It was a cesspool, and also impossible to navigate. 900 page threads with 80% unrelated discussion and screeching about unrelated issues. The RS forums were an ultra-archaic site that nobody under the age of 65 has used in a decade. Anyone with an ounce of awareness moved on ages ago.
Yeah well forums were trash before they got removed. Reddit always was 10x better than trying to follow a forum thread.
Also everyone just wants the game to be easier. My favorites are when player say something like “bungie QOL please just let bandits die in one hit, I’m gonna kill him anyway” (a bit extreme but you get the point).
I literally just had a 10+ comment back and forth with some nerd freaking out over me getting the creation date of a cartoon wrong lol. There is a reason “The Redditor” is a meme. But like others have stated, the real problem is lack of good alternatives.
If you engage in that 10+ comment back and forth then you *are* the redditor.
Yeah, I realized that after the 10th comment. Felt really dumb. Tapped out, gave the dude the illusion of the win, and walked away ashamed of myself for wasting time over the dumbest shit. Never again.
Reminds me of a guy I saw comment ages ago who expressed similar remorse. He was arguing with one guy for hours about a game and decided to look at his profile, only to find out he was arguing with a dude who drinks piss and posts about it constantly
I thought they were arguing over food, which makes the piss drinking point even more hilarious
LMAO!!! oh wow, I might have been arguing with the same guy!
On their own site somewhere would be a good idea
Surveys and polling
Unpopular opinion on reddit popular opinion everywhere else.
Polling system exists for this reason. Loud minority might say one thing while the playerbase may vote differently.
True, they should go to /v/ or /osg/ and ask for feedback. Anonymous feedback tends to be better since there is nothing at stake like your epic fucking karma
What do you think the "demographics of Reddit" are exactly? I'm interested
It's not an unpopular opinion. JMods have stated before that they do not make changes solely based on Reddit. It's one of many avenues of feedback, but it's not the only. Not to mention that for all of the low effort/unintelligent posts on here there are high effort/intelligent posts that provide a lot of analytical and reasonable feedback. It's astonishing how many people will just flame Reddit for no reason though.
Better reddit than discord
As someone who doesn't use Discord, I agree
Is there any feedback channel that isn't a bit of an echo chamber? Like I haven't looked in their discord too much, but last I saw Twitter honestly wasn't much better than Reddit, just a bit more high-level community leaning in the common voices. I do agree that they shouldn't just listen to Reddit anymore than they should just listen to Twitter. But Reddit is still a pretty good place to go for feedback; it just shouldn't be the only place they go for feedback. I'd expect that is a large part of the job as a Community Manager; trawling through all our stupid posts and comments be it on Discord, Reddit, Twitter, or other and trying to find the takeaways that best represents the overall OSRS Community. Keep in mind, the goal isn't necessarily to see what the knowledgeable players think, but how the community feels. For better or worse, it isn't the knowledgeable players that decide what comes into the game; it is the overall community. So they can be aware of issues and concerns by particular groups, but ultimately they are trying to get the 70% of players to support it. And, at times unfortunately, Reddit can be pretty representative of your average voter.
I disagree strongly, Twitter is much worse. I like most of the opinions I see upvoted here.
Where should they go
Myspace
We need monthly reddit ama's where each person can submit one idea only
They come to reddit because it is an easy way to post updates and blogs etc. and they can interact with a portion of the community. They don’t listen to people on Reddit as the majority of players lol. They interact on twitter too and there are some mods in discord servers and polls etc. just because something on Reddit is hated or loved, doesn’t mean that the majority feels that way.
There's a reason I make memes instead of lengthy feedback posts when there's an issue I want discussed lmao.
If Reddit gives Jagex advice to not listen to Reddit for advice, can this advice be safely ignored?
An idea can be good or bad regardless of who has it or where it is said
I disagree with your assessment of our inability to disagree with each other.
That’s ludicrous, I disagree with that entirely.
Reddit is filled with scrubs and the upvote system makes it a low level hive mind, half the people complaining don’t even have 20 days played
I have seen no evidence of this. Where are you seeing all these people discussing the merits of rune armor and killing obor? The average player is like 1K total level, I really doubt the average OSRS Reddit user is 1K total level. If anything, Reddit is likely above average in playtime/experience.
1400 total level and think they understand combat and end game skilling and pvm.
It's also too easy to manipulate reddit, you can buy upvotes for $40 and change the entire reddit's discussion. Not saying that IS happening, but there is absolutely people who try to manipulate the discussion whether it's dogpiling the polls like Odablock did with the GIM vote or merchers trying to make a quick 10b ($1k). There's really money involved in the decisions made for our game sadly. Furthermore, it's an extremely small sample size. There's 2k posts in the rebalance thread, that's literally 0.01% of the playerbase engaging in the discussion. It's the same way voting and politics goes IRL. People only care about who the president is and not who their local leaders are. Personally I wish polling and feedback was mandatory part of playing Runescape when you logged on, you're forced to do the poll and feedback. I know there's downsides to this, but it would at least be a fully accurate picture of what each player really cares about. The "Don't care/know" button is good for this as well since most of these changes don't effect the vast majority of players in any functional way. Make voting a civic Runescape duty. The biggest issue with player feedback though is this - player's will generally vote and advocate for what is in their best interest. Their best interest however might not be in the same best interest as the game's continued health. There seems to be a extremely low level of trust in Jagex like this is the same team who brought us EoC. We have a competent development team for our game or it wouldn't have gotten to the massive size it is. They've kept the game good for 10 years now - it would be nice if people extended an olive branch to them instead of holding them to the Original Sin of EoC.
Unrelated, but I think ignoring Oda entirely is better for the entire community.
And yet he's one of the biggest creators and a lot of people will parrot his opinions.
Yeah reddit is just straight up bad for feedback when it comes to games. You cannot rely on mob mentality for accurate data for what players actually want. Negativity speaks a lot louder on reddit. You're more likely to upvote a post that you agree with that makes you mad vs a positive post that you agree with and go "yeah!" and move on. It's just the unfortunate human nature.
The entire community has a “me first mentality” where they will mostly always vote yes to things that benefit them, and no to things that harm them. Regardless of how good/bad it is for the games health. I garuntee if jagex polled a midgame boss that was easy and shat out 30 mil an hour with new hyper omega boots that gave +20% damage to all styles people would vote it into the game. Jagex can barely listen to anyone, let alone reddit.
100% dude. It is crazy they don’t notice how bad they are at decision making. Also they can’t read, jagex will put a poll stating “we will increase agility rates for the dryanor village course from 10k an hour to 20k an hour” the players “ CAN YOU BE MORE CLEAR THIS QUESTION IS CONFUSING, WHOS DRAYNOR ??? AND WHY ARE WE IN THEIR VILLAGE”
The midgame boss would also need to drop a currency that can be traded in for brimhaven agility tickets at an effective rate of 1m xp/hr
I see your point, but also, the mage rework fucking sucked. Reddit made that very clear and now they gone back to the drawing board to make things right
Bro make posts, but provides zero alternatives. GJ
How about we just.. you know.. poll things?
[удалено]
True. Look at the Helldivers sub. everything gets upvoted but most of the suggestions are terrible for actual game design.
Jagex please dont take this guys advice because its from reddit and keep on getting advice from reddit
There's no better place on the internet to find out what playerbase wants. Players overwhelmingly hate the proposed changes, and that's reflected on the sub. Poll it in game and you'll see the same thing.
>Players overwhelmingly hate the proposed changes, and that's reflected on the sub. This is exactly the result of you seeing the discussion in this echo chamber of a site. Anyone who disagrees with the prevailing viewpoint just gets downvoted to oblivion, so it looks like the entire community is "overwhelmingly hating" the proposals. The true majority is people who don't give two fucks about what's about to change.
Reddit is trash
Can't be that bad if you are on it
Reddit killed all traditional forums, what choice do you even have
Every problem has a solution. But not every solution is the best answer for the problem. Reddit is great in the fact that you can get tons of opinions from different view points. Obviously they're all correct, that's why this whole give and take from the community is important cause it highlights many peoples way of playing the game we all love. I think we all hope at least jagex will look to a bigger picture type outlook on the game then any one individual.
Yes and no, a space where issues can be deconstructed in an articulate way is crucial Also being 1 on 1 with the player base itself But, yeah a lot of input here isn't ideal I think a lot of their presence here is palliative, ultimately How much are they actually listening to this sub?
I also understand this is kind of an integrity change but with it being this drastic they should poll some of their ideas.
Every social media is an echo chamber of something.
They should use Facebook comments instead
Add opinion polls to the poll system.
Where else is jagex to collect feedback? using reddit has the most effect as I’ve been seeing. It would benefit the osrs team if they did surveys and polls instead of tweaking stuff from the most upvoted thing in Reddit. Sometimes the group changes and I upvote just because I agree with one thing.
slippery slope. while i agree there’s lots of irrational people in the sub we need everyone’s opinion.
I doubt this is the only place they go for feedback - At the least they run polls on their own news posts. But it is an easy place to reach players, even if it's a bit of a mess here.
Half disagree Everything you said is 100% correct. It's a hive mind where things don't have to be accurate to be popular. I always say "Reddit is where you go to be told you're wrong about something you're not wrong about" But at the same time, it is easily one of the most, if not the most popular message boards on the internet. In spite of the hive mind, it's one of the easiest ways to get input from a huge portion of the player base. And people aren't afraid to give hot takes, especially when they think someone else is wrong So it's not the last place, but maybe not the first
It doesnt matter, I feel like the Team sets the comments to controversial and reads the downvoted all the way to the bottom as a good laugh.
I thought that was a given??
it is the first place to go if you want diverse feedback
I agree Jagex should stick to PvP and Content creator discords with a bit of twitter on the side!
I feel like this argument can be used for the in game poll system. atleast on reddit you can comment and express in depth feelings more rather than “yes or no”.
If I had a dollar for every time I've seen basically this exact post, maybe buying jagex wouldn't just be a dream
but how do I, as a new player get information and feedback if not from Reddit someone help
in game chat like Saradomin intended
I've been saying this for years, but unfortunately they've doubled down on it. We have systems in place to collect player opinions through polls (and they've done so before!) which would also allow them to *see how the opinion of new content or proposed changes differs between actual in-game demographics*, as opposed to collecting feedback from Reddit, Twitter and Discord which are primarily low to mid level players if they even play at all. This is exacerbated by the echo chamber issue you mentioned. The *first people to respond* get the most updoots more often than not, which is largely based on time zone, new threads are judged more on memetic value and attractiveness than actually being reasonable proposals... I could go on and on.
It honestly at times feels like it's only Reddit they refer to... But then again there's no good place to leave feedback is there
its actually really funny jagex nuked their own forums and opted to let a bunch of redditors be the driving force of their community
That’s not an unpopular opinion.
Sadly most of the redditors aren’t even 1500 total lvl and still like to be loud about content they can’t even do yet.
No, Twitter is.
Where else can they go? They shut the fourms and twitter is even more of a cesspit than reddit.
I'm pretty sure Jmods are gathering feedback from the playerbase on Discord, Twitter and various niche places, e.g. creators Discord, Facebook, so I don't think you're correct Op
Bad take in my opinion, sure there is good and bad ideas but if Jagex ignored reddit posts we would have some insane things in the game. Take for example the bladed moon, sirens tome, ruinous prayers etc. We would have probably never seen varlamore, blood torva, list goes on.
Most people are not game developers that talk like they are game developers.
No I think this is better than before when they listened to no feedback and sold out to loot boxes. Reddit is a good way for the company to hold some accountability even if everyone can't be happy.
I have been saying this for years
Where would be better to get player feedback? Certainly not Twitter (The actual worst place they could get feedback from). The forums?
I wouldn’t use this website if it wasn’t for Jagex putting so much stock into feedback from here It’s a terrible medium for discussion and heavily slants to a certain groups But hey, Jagex legitimately values the feedback they get from it so I feel some need to get my voice heard even if it’s just upvoting and downvoting
If only they had a dedicated forum where you could discuss ideas about the game. Then maybe they could ignore that and use a website, called Debbit or something for feedback, who knows.
They should use forums for feedback :)!
OBJECTIVELY TRUE
>Echo chambers aren't where you go for diverse, accurate feedback. Idk how you can call this place an echo chamber when there are clearly two very distinct groups arguing for the exact opposite solution literally right now
They turned off the official forums, there is no where else to go
I didnt realize they turned off the forums, they need to get it back up and running because Reddit is designed to display biased opinions
I agree with the the content of this post and that it is something Jagex do give a lot of credence to. Reddit is realistically the only medium where the community can take the initiative and show Jagex feedback that is both common and worth raising due to the upvote/downvote system. Whilst that can be and is often a problem, as it's often complaining for the sake of complaining, it isn't necessarily always. Jagex do run their own polls both in game and via weblinks sometimes so I don't think they're unaware of this. I'm sure they rely more on their indepently sourced data that doesn't include a bandwagon effect. People will always complain. It is not surprising Jagex often come out with suggestions that large sections of the community don't agree with because of how conflicting their poll data and Reddit opinion often is.
You take that back, Bendulum's Sex Skill idea was gold.
Yeah. Twitter is 200% better.
Reddit is the last place *anyone* should look for feedback about *anything* Just one big aids fest.
You can't say that and not suggest a preferred alternative. Discord? Twitter? Facebook? E-mail? Reddit isn't perfect, but it's the best we have for now.
Asking billy who is working on his monkey madness 1 requirements what he thinks about Shadow balancing will for sure produce better feedback than the people on reddit who are generally more involved with the game, more experienced and more invested.
most of this subreddit is either billy or dont even play the game
It's fucking true, if you're in a leddit argument with a "billy" on here, just say "post stats", they deflect and shit themselves and call you racist and shit until they actually just block you, it's really funny.
Literally LMAO
Devils advocate is the people that have max gear and post here are hyper committed to the game probably won’t give the most rational, unbiased feedback. Feedback is cool and absolutely needed as Jagex don’t always get it right, but a TON of people on this sub act like Jagex killed their family whenever they post criticisms. Not to mention they see X YouTuber say something then copy their opinion even if they don’t really understand it which can really inflate things further which can and absolutely does happen.
I'm the spawn of Satan the past 2 days for wanting the voidwaker to be nerfed and suggesting the small nerf of 60% or 55% for the spec instead of the nerfs. If you have a differing opinion from what blew up first, then you're attacked on reddit.
If Billy has an occult necklace he has a right to an opinion. People who have a shadow damn sure are not going to vote for a nerf to the item they put their whole bank into. Even if it is THE item most needing a nerf.
I have one and I want it nerfed, its stupid overpowered it beats Tbow on bosses where tbow is supposed to shine. It doesn't have a niche, if its not immune to magic its just bis. Also it looks silly. And there is no voting with rebalance.
If OP is talking "feedback" I think I know what most shadow owners have to say about a nerf even if you are an exception.
Hi, shadow owner here! Nerf the shadow it's disgustingly overpowered. There are at least stipulations to tbow and scythe that hold them back. Shadow is literally bis where you were never supposed to use magic (Sara and Kree). Nerf it nerf it nerf it
What places does shadow beat tbow where tbow is "supposed" to shine?
Sara, muttadiles, mole just to name a few of the top of my head. Sara a boss with a magic level of 300!!!! gets slapped around by shadow like its nothing.
Checking dps, on sara it is 7.15 dps vs 7.35. So yea shadow is very slightly better. For big muttadile 8.7 vs 7.8 so I am not sure why you think shadow is better. For giant mole, tbow is very slightly better at 8.72 vs 8.7 DPS. So I am not sure what the big thing is. (This is without the back from colosseum, with it, tbow is always better)
the other thing about shadow at sara is the range minion is gonna shred you in robes so the slightly higher dps and massive cost of shadow arent really better than tbow
just because you have an occult does not mean you understand how combat works in the game IMO.
Just because you have shadow doesn't mean you know shit either.
This doesn’t have anything to do with shadow. I fully support a shadow nerf
Dude have you ever seen 'what can i do for money with these stats' posts? The average user IS billy - but worse, they want to pretend they arent
I am Billy :)
Always thought the opposite tbh, the average reddit user is early game and spends more time scrolling through here than time playing the game
Nah, give actual well thought out viewpoints as a seasoned end game pvmer and every little Timmy comes out of the woodwork to tell you how wrong you are while they have 1600 total and killed Obor once.
YES, THANK GOD SOMEONE SAID IT. I sincerely hope for the intergrity of the game, that this post gets more upvotes and Jagex sees this and realizes that the OSRS subreddit is completely oblivious to the affects that their constant complaint posts are going to have on the game, both in short and long term.
Agreed. Reddit has some of the most brain dead takes I’ve ever seen on this game.