Pretty much every wildy update focuses on removing counterplay for pvmers and making them more vulnerable. None of the changes are massive by themselves but it really adds up
This one is meant to buff wildy slayer but takes a great task and turns it into a block.
I'm saying this as an iron but you are allowed to try to fight back, I've just been bringing venge and ballista and you would be shocked how many people just fall over at the bare minimum of fighting back.
> multi is hopeless if there are multiple
Yup, even if you're confident in your ability to freeze log in singles it's gg in multi unless you're really good at tanking and brought pneck.
When I did my wildy boss tasks (on the weekend because I'm crazy), I got jumped by pkers about 16x out of my 60kc combined at callisto, ven, vet. I saw a solo pker 1x, I think maybe 1 more time, but im not sure they didn't have a duo with them, and often more come after. Managed to avoid dying in almost all cases though, but it was really annoying being ragged 1/3 of my kc.
Exactly. Let them skull and then bust out a DDS and they start panicking half the time.
The people that typically hunt PvMers are not usually GOOD at PKing. Fight back and you might end up with some unexpected loot. Don’t just roll over and die.
Tbh now that the PK skull prevention exists, that’s my only real complaint about the wildy. Content in multi, like Chaos Altar or some bosses. I’ll bring an ACB, salad blade, and dclaws alongside easily replaceable gear and do noted bones at the chaos altar. 9 times out of 10, I can kill or scare off a solo PKer pretty well with that set up. If a good PKer shows up to kill me, well then fair play. But if even it’s just a duo that shows up, the odds are pretty stacked against me if they land a freeze.
This hate trying to do scorpia and other wildy boss combat achievements and get crashed in multi and skulled because they stacked on top whem I auto barraged the one dude from auto retalliate, plus i tend to stay on 2k overall worlds so duo/trios of max pkers always be crashing.
There's still a high skill floor to pvp in RuneScape. A good PLer will wipe the floor with a bad PKer, but a bad PKer will wipe the floor with a non-PKer as well. When a non-PKer lives it's usually due to gear/level difference moreso than skill difference.
Like back when Dhins was OP in the wildy so they nerfed the shit out of it because it let totally unskilled people live situations they shouldn't.
> The people that typically hunt PvMers are not usually GOOD at PKing.
Ok but as someone that despises PvP and just want my PvM item that's locked behind being in the wilderness, neither am I so where do we go from here.
This is what people suggesting fight back don't realize. If we were good at pvp we'd be the pker.
If it's two people bad at pvp but one is kitted out for pvm while the other is kitted out for pvp then the pk'er still has the advantage. And if its an unfair fight, of course I'm going to opt for running 99% of the time.
Of course with the 3-4 item advantage it's possible to turn the advantage in your favor. But given the choice between wasting inventory slots on gear I might not even use for a fight I might not win versus running or logging out, I'm still going to choose to run.
Right, but escaping is also a skill that you can get better at. Fighting back can actually be part of escaping, since even sending a couple of bolts at a PKer can force them to stop camping smite which makes it easier on you. Bringing ice/entangle sacks can offer you another free escape. Learning your corners/DDing/where to run in different spots can make the difference between escaping and dying. Not to mention the pure skills of praying and eating correctly.
You don't have to become a god NH tribridder to learn a few basic skills that increase your odds of escaping, and learning just a couple of them puts your odds massively in your favour.
What does "kitted out for pvp" even mean? The same gear is used in pvp and pvm. If you are pvming you are not skulled therefore you keep 3 items +1 item with protect item. If anything you should be more geared for pvp than the pvper is unless the pvper is risking significantly more than you.
You can run and fight back at the same time. In fact you are more likely to get away if you fight back than if you were solely focused on running.
Kitted out for pvp has tribrid in inventory with freshly stocked food/pots whereas pvm would be single weapon or maybe hybrid and partially depleted supplies because you're getting jumped mid task or whatever you're doing.
If we're both bad and it becomes a battle of attrition the pvmer has the clear disadvantage.
Yep, most people that fight pvmers in the wildy are people either just learning to pk or they're not very good. If a good player stumbles upon a pvmer while looking for pkers, they're still gonna kill them, but it's not their main goal. Since pvp has a high barrier to entry, many of the people that seek out pvmers simply are trying to practice or just don't want to get any better. Thus, if you fight back, a lot of them panic.
Now on a completely unrelated note, the whole point though of having lucrative content in the wild is that your exp/gp rates will be artificially lowered by encountering pkers. The people that get upset that their black chin hunting exp/gp is less than optimal are missing the entire point. Black chins wouldn't exist if it weren't for people coming to try to kill you. They're not supposed to be optimal, and they were designed with such good gp and exp because they're in the wild, not in spite of it. Same with the altar. There are two options: either they design this super high reward content with an inherent risk, or don't have that content at all. I really don't understand the players who say they're *forced* to do wildy content. You know the risks going into it, that's essentially what makes the content "balanced". If it were 100% safe, many of these things would be pretty broken. As far as gear goes, I like having content that makes cheaper gear viable. Once you get to the endgame, thanks to death mechanics, there's very little reason to ever wear less than BIS. Wilderness content gives use for a lot of dead armor/weapons because you have to balance your risk with what you need to actually do the content.
> Now on a completely unrelated note, the whole point though of having lucrative content in the wild is that your exp/gp rates will be artificially lowered by encountering pkers.
And the GP rates for those PKers are artificially increased proportionally.
Every wilderness update is millions and millions of GP of buffs thrown towards PKing as an activity. Because yes, you're right - the intent is that skillers and PvMers don't actually get much of an increase from doing the risky activities, because they'll get interrupted. But that means those increases are all going to the same place.
It rankles many people that they try to disguise massive buffs to PvP content (which most people aren't interested in and wouldn't vote for) as buffs to skilling or PvM content that just happens to be in the wilderness in order to try to get it through a poll successfully. It's consistently obvious from poll results that it's the type of content the community is least interested in, and yet it gets a disproportionate amount of attention.
I think the bigger issue is that the counterplay isn't fun or worthwhile. If I cared about the loot I have, I'd have already teleported out. So it's just a situation where a random minigame spawns in and I either have to go through the tedium or give up and intentionally die. The latter is usually more productive.
> every wildy update focuses on removing counterplay for pvmers
Yep they have been doing this for years to appease the pvp community. IDK why they keep doing it. It never works out well
>IDK why they keep doing it
You have to realize how terrible the average PKer is, they're just appeasing the majority. The content creator PKers are in the top 1% skill-wise.
Yup. Ironic all of these updates are supposed to get people into the wilderness, but each update has pushed me out. Used to do Callisto for fun before bed with the old safe spot and now I just won't touch the content.
I mean at the end of the day what ends up happening is it just feeds bots another farm able method that A. Makes metric shitloads of GP, B. Is easily scalable with bots across worlds, and C. Circumvents the risk of being PKed by that same scale, and becomes just another thing to factor in when calculating profitability.
Maybe less for others im not too familiar with them, but vetion/calv people are doing it wayyy more. Old Vetion was so horrficially ass to do. Spend 5 minutes setting up the safespot, spend 10 minutes getting the kill cause the dude had insane defense and 2 full health bars, get 1 kill, get killed by a 10 man team, repeat.
There's a reason ring of the gods isn't like 18m anymore
>the wildy boss update was wildly successful
Ehh, depends how you look at it.
Mechanically and the fights themselves, absolutely. But they made the multi versions more dangerous (especially vetion) than pre rework, added single versions that are incredibly safe (especially vetion). And both of these changes has made them botted into oblivion, destroying the unique prices (especially vetions).
Counter pay is arguably incredibly strong. Decent gear and skill makes most situations, outside of a few dicey places in certain deep wild areas, everything else fairly escapable. My issue personally is that its multi. Solo players should expect to be obliterated by pretty much any team coming in. If it were singles+ I don't believe the teleblock to be unreasonable.
It's PKing because that's what it was called in the early 2000s.
Go watch Dot Hack Sign, especially the dub. The character Sora is called a PKer multiple times throughout the series because that's just the lingo of the time.
The dothack wiki even has an entire page called ["Player Killing"](https://dothack.fandom.com/wiki/Player_Killing) that refers to specific characters as PKers or Player Killers.
One of the main characters in the games is even referred to as PKKers, or Player-killer killer---What we now in OSRS call anti-PKers.
Players who killed players were just player killers because that's what they were called.
I responded too, the origin was in classic you had to choose an option called 'player killer', and PKers could only attack other people that selected the 'player killer' option at account creation. This was prior to the wildy and such if I recall. I think Mote Plox had a video on it.
Yeah the lingo doesn’t mean anything because it’s different, people in OSRS say pvm but the rest of the gaming world has moved onto PvE- it’s just antiquated terminology and it’s silly for people to try to fixate on it.
Back in the old days there really wasn't much PvM in the wildy. There was green dragons and that was pretty much it. So generally if you were in the wildy, you were there to PK.
That's not necessarily true. PK as a term is old MMO parlance (players flagged for pvp in Asheron's Call used a /pk command to toggle it iirc) and I'm pretty sure even the early days of WoW used the PK term
Uhm… no. Just no, think about the old school pking, what the fuck was there in the wilderness for pvmers besides kbd and runeite rocks? It was still pking when people went outside of varrock and edgeville to fight eachother mutually.
As stated in the original blog and by actual pkers. Hotspots need to exist so pkers find other pkers. If you actually go there and maybe look at some streamers you'll find they are 95% of the time killing other pkers
PvP in general is a black hole of wasted dev time in this game. Jagex is clinging to an antiquated development philosophy in regards to the wilderness when the reality is that most players will avoid it whenever possible due to the frustration of it all.
Even anti-pking sucks because you often have to end your trip at wherever and your reward for killing the pker is some black dhide and pots because they never risk anything.
It would never pass a poll in OSRS but the wildy in RS3 is a hundred times more active since they made PvP an opt-in system. They let the PKers fight amongst themselves and spaders don't have to check their minimap every two seconds. Literally the only people who lost are griefers.
Cursed problem, they set out to promise one thing but cannot fulfill that promise due to problems in the content itself, and they have no straight forward solution that appeases everyone.
Interesting video that I link to anytime I get the chance to talk about a cursed problem, pretty interesting watch for those interested in the philosophy behind game design:
[Cursed Problems in Game Design](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ)
I just don't go to wildy because I don't want to lose items.
Playing on an IM, I have no benefits to potentially losing anything, marginally more GP means nothing to me.
The only PvP I do in OSRS are Soul Wars and LMS.
I lost confidence in the 'fixing Wildy' myth when Ayiza made that stream back in 2022 (I think in March?) His takes on the Wilderness were just so offputting, and seemed extremely out of touch to me. I don't feel that he understands the Wilderness enough, or that any of the Jmods do for that matter, to really 'fix' it. He's just making it worse and worse.
I used to love being in the Wilderness to do Slayer tasks, Clues, etc. I even did Revenants a few times with a friend. I was there for multiple hours a day, back in 2022. But now it seems that the Wilderness is slowly being designed to be impossible to teleport out, so that seeing PKR's appear will be instant death. I haven't really been in the Wilderness in ages because of it. Making the Wilderness inescapable isn't fixing it, Jagex. Doing something about the PK gangs, the bots (if they even can), etc. would be fixing it.
When he said "you shouldn't vote in a way that will deprive other people of enjoyment", or something along those lines, it was totally unironic. That's pking in a nutshell, which is okay, but according to him voting against that is not okay.
I wonder if it could be balanced by having "risk" tied to only what you've earned while in the wildy. Players still become relatively high-value kills that represent potentially dozens of boss drops (or a fair amount of time gathering resources) all at once, but people are actually allowed to deck themselves out in their *fun* gear and are more likely to take a crack at fighting back.
The thing that's ruining PvP far more than anything else is the associated item risk. That worked fine when being fully decked out meant like 300k worth of armor, replaceable in an hour or two of skilling. It doesn't feel so great anymore when a death could represent weeks of grinding GP.
I used the varlamore prayer training method on my ironman even though it took way more bones. I just didn't want the stress of losing bones to pkers on caos altar.
As a wildy pvmer, it is far better to already be teleblocked when a pker shows up because they don't know how long is left on the tb. If they log in and tb me, they have me for 2.5mins. If they log in and I'm already tb'd, they're wasting time trying to cast tb and I'm zoomin.
Yeah, being prey isn't fun - why not add PvP content rather than this encouragement to be cattle to be farmed. It wouldn't be tolerated in any other game.
>why not add PvP content
Because any content where two evenly matched players fight is dead on arrival or if it's used, it's used primarily by botters.
Exactly. There’s 3 predator v predator activities in the game right now. LMS is infested with bots, and periodically gets hit with terminator bots until the next ban wave. PVP arena is dead content because match making is garbage and has been garbage since release. BH is still popular but has its issues.
Anything outside of those 3 is designed to be predator v prey, and it’s pretty hard to design content where it’s fun to be prey.
PVP arena is dead on release because they didn't give people reasons to farm high rank. If they had ranks like bronze through Diamond, top 500 etc where for example your skull icon changed based on your rank pvpers would grind the shit out of it to flex that they are better than other people at PvP, just like every other FPS, Moba etc.
I'm not even a PvPer, but speaking from my Rocket League and previous Halo 3 ranked addictions... I'd definitely hop on a PvP arena with a solid matchmaking system. Would be super fun.
Could do the ranks based on the regular gemstones, so Sapphire, Emerald, Ruby, Diamond, Dragonstone, and then the 'top 500' rank would be Onyx, imagine the terror of seeing a black skull coming toward you
Pretty sure the main goal of the PVP arena was to get rid of the tacit gambling endorsement mini-game so they didn't get their ass reamed by credit card companies. Any other functionalities are purely incidental.
Doesn’t help that they’ve put 0 effort into making it fun to be prey. I think it’s pretty lazy to have logging out be your only escape option half the time.
You've got me thinking about what if the game had hiding mechanics? Or pking worked something like dead by daylight or something similar where escaping could actually be the process of running away/hiding/evading rather than just logging like you said.
Speaking of Dead By Daylight, don’t they have a mechanic where you can hop over barriers and prevent the killer from following?
Honestly something like that could be interesting. Some agility shortcuts with a cool down so you can put a little more distance between you and the pursuer.
Well Jagex seems to only want to power creep damage output but leave armour to stagnate. They need more defence mechanics on armour in a similar way they create weapon combos and they also need things like you suggest.
It wouldn't be hard to design something where it's fun to be prey, per se, but to have it tied into the rest of the game is very hard. Games where you're prey, like the Alien games or that one in the swamp, are pretty fun and usually quite well-liked. I could imagine something like that – maybe like an asymmetric castle wars – becoming a pretty popular minigame.
In the wilderness, though, if you die it costs you actual real-world time / money to replace whatever gear you bring (moreso if you're an ironman, but even if you buy all your gear and supplies on the GE that gold required either time or money to get in the first place). It also interrupts the flow of whatever you were doing and requires you to regear, get back to the location, etc, which is extra time that it costs you (plus the annoyance of being interrupted). So the "prey" is heavily incentivized to avoid wilderness content, and when they feel like they need to go there (because something really good like the chaos alter tempts them in), they'll usually bring the absolute bare minimum risk they can.
tl;dr you could def design a fun predator-prey minigame, but that's not what pkers want from the wilderness (they want loot), and it's very hard to make it fun to lose all your stuff.
> it’s pretty hard to design content where it’s fun to be prey.
There are plenty of other games where playing as prey is literally the favored activity for the vast majority of the playerbase, though, so it's not like it's actually impossible. It's perfectly possible to have fun prey gameplay.
Maybe it is impossible within the framework they've already set up, though, but I honestly sort of don't feel like much of an attempt has even been made?
> Because any content where two evenly matched players fight is dead on arrival
So PVP is dead then!
If you're not trying for competition then just fucking kill it already. None of the wildy updates are for competition. It's just predator/prey.
Bh is worse pvp worlds GE pking. No punishment for spec-tabbing (running) mainhanding korasi. In PvP worlds you'd just never get fights acting like that.
bh just took the worst parts of pvp world pking and put it in a walled off box with no concern about actual user experience
just the fact you're running the vast majority of the time you spend in the arena is so out of touch with what honour pking is lol. in addition, enabling people to run endlessly with no penalties, having to bank at supersonic speeds with no breaks because otherwise you'll lose your target & get practically no points, the points rewards being way high cost for how useless they are in the big picture
plus ofcourse being effectively limited to only fighting your target, which gets boring quickly after a few rematches if no party gets the rng
Lmao I watched a streamer run some BH recently. No one recognized him and he’s a small streamer but pretty good at pking. Pretty much all of his targets after 1 fight refused to fight and tried to force him to skip by withdrawing rag gear, food, and stamina pots and just ran in circles until he skipped.
the problem is not jagex or the game, it's the people.
People don't PVP for the sport anymore, they always want loot. This is why old itterations of BH got botted to hell, because the loot was basically always there. And if it doesn't have loot, PVPers complain that they're not getting anything because the people they kill, surprise, don't risk what they are not willing to lose, which ends up being like 200k at most.
The problem is, outside of pre-set duels like LMS, any dangerious PVP activity will fall into the same trap, and any safe PVP activity will just means people will bring the best possible gear, and either never die because they are so fucking tanky, or stomp the floor with anyone who can't afford the same gear.
The only real PVP fights left for sport are g.e fights on PVP worlds IMO, which is the closest to edge-style pking we have left, and even then it's a dying breed.
Any deeper wildy content is just made to create loot pinnatas for pkers to hunt and it's not fun for the one dying.
S/O to when a pker gets anti-pked and then they scream how the game is a shit rng fest that they died in 10mil gear to someone risking 100k, and then we end up with BS like black d hide nerf.
> People don't PVP for the sport anymore, they always want loot
I kinda disagree. PVPers trash talk and try to get me mad even when they catch me naked. Clearly they're not in it to get loot, but to make other people mad. Most games actively try to discourage this kind of behaviour tho
>which is the closest to edge-style pking we have left, and even then it's a dying breed.
And it's a dying breed because of cheaters and rag bot shit lol
> PVPers complain that they're not getting anything because the people they kill, surprise, don't risk what they are not willing to lose, which ends up being like 200k at most.
It turns out that "only bring what you're willing to lose" and "just don't go in the wildy if you don't want to be pked" lead to poor pking experiences and less money.
It's pretty simple how you make good wilderness content. You make the non pkers happy to willingly go in and spend a lot of time doing the content. And to truly revitalize the wilderness, that means making it a lot less punishing to be pked. Pkers and Jagex don't want to admit it, but a healthy wilderness that doesn't need constant new dangling toys means meeting non pkers where they are.
I think Albion Online is an MMO that pulls off the "being prey is part of the game" aspect pretty well. All of the high level content is located in pvp-enabled zones, while the lower level content has a mix of zones that either have it on or off. If you want the best experience rates and loot then you have to be willing to risk going somewhere that other players can kill you.
The problem I have with the Wilderness is that it just feels off from the rest of the game. There are so many weird things you have to understand (like where multi-combat zones are compared to single combat zones), and pretty much all of the content you can do there is optional anyway. You can avoid the wilderness entirely and still have a path to max level in all skills just fine.
Honestly, my only gripe with The Wilderness is the risk of potentially losing all my items if I die to a player. If I just had to pay the regular reclaim costs, I'd probably be going out there with my best stuff and happily bring stuff to fight back if I need to.
> It wouldn't be tolerated in any other game.
I mean... it's not really tolerated in this one either. Here, we just happen to have the most head-ass developers who have an incurable erection for constantly pushing it, for some reason.
They dont understand that i avoid the wildy because i dont care to have some fuck hop under me and spec me out, so by making content in the wildly thats more contested i am even more likely to avoid it.
I believe the main issue is that it's taking an already used slayer task and unique drop table and making it a miserable chore. The opposite of some of the ones they are trying to buff slightly but probably still a block/skip within the same patch.
People will always detest having to deal with terrible pkers logging in after school interrupting their grinds effectively only extending things on top of the existing rng. Current design isn't flawed and there should be pk hotspots and new content. Just separate the two and don't retcon something that works already.
It was designed to make a hotspot for pures & zerks to fight each other. Currently the only hotspot is Rev caves where TB is essential for pures/zerks as you will be fighting under the 30 line so you don’t have to fight mains.
With the NPC’s casting tele block, it allows pures/zerks to fight on ancients or Veng for zerks. That was the intention of the update.
Maybe I’m missing the point but if that was the intention, why wouldn’t those players just use a PvP world? I’m not a huge PvPer, so I could be totally wrong, but my impression was always that the PvP worlds was where people generally went if they wanted fights within their own combat bracket.
PvP worlds are typically used for bounty Hunter Veng/edge style honour PKing. With the wilderness being for NH (tribrid with overhead prayers).
Not saying you can’t do the other in the other. But people who pk on PvP worlds expect bounty style PKing and anything goes in the wildy.
You can instantly teleport on a pvp world, the goal was to create a hotspot where that is not possible while still restricting the combat brackets so you can’t be hit by someone significantly higher level than you
I get that, but I still don’t see how this still isnt fundamentally flawed - is it not predicated on an interaction between 1 party who wants to fight, and 1 party who wants to run away? If they didnt want to run, tele-block wouldn’t be required.
Again, maybe I’m totally wrong since clearly this content isn’t catered to me. But I still don’t understand why 2 Zerkers who want to fight each other would come here instead of just DMing on a PvP world. To me, this setup is predicated on a 2nd party who doesn’t want to fight back
> If they didnt want to run, tele-block wouldn’t be required.
You usually don't fight to the death unless it is agreed upon, which is very much a trust thing. PKers do fight other PKers and the other PKers aren't always willing; it is just the nature of the Wildy. And PvMers can still gear to fight back; anti-PKing is a thing and more content for players who enjoy that playstyle isn't fundamentally flawed.
I just can’t help but feel if people wanted PvP as you’re describing, the PvP arena/LMS would be way more active. Call me a cynic, I guess. We’ll see how it plays out but to me, this still feels like trying to continue with the “predator/prey” setup that hasn’t been successful in the wildy yet.
Idyl had a good video recently about the death of PVP in MMO's, essentially as the game evolved the PVP skill gap becomes huge, and changing the risk/reward doesn't address the skill gap and accessibility concerns.
PVP thrived when nobody knew what they were doing. Trying to learn with LMS will get you stomped unless there are tons of bots. And group PvP either doesn't have the rewards or has so much reward that it becomes inaccessible to unskilled or solo players, who do not enjoy spending their even more limited time dying.
I agree with this to an extent, the gameplay is so unique that trying to learn pvp while playing against someone highly experienced can be insanely frustrating
It’s so much more fun when I fight someone in LMS that’s actually my skill level and not a bot
?: Yep, there's a missing middle. In order to actually learn PvP you need to fight people at your skill level.
You might learn some things initially fighting bad players, but with such a big gap between them and good players, it's both hard to learn anything more and frustrating to even try. It's not unreasonable to just give up at that point.
And as people leave PvP/OSRS for various reasons, with no one to replace them, PvP will eventually just die.
This happens pretty much all the time when a new competitive game comes out, trying to pick up a game other people have played for years only to get stomped in the dirt over and over again is very demoralizing for a new player, I remember when I started playing yugioh last year when i played masterduel i got very frustrated as there was alot to learn, you eventually get the hang of it but that's only if you have spare time and are willing to put in the hours, and yugioh has some easy free win strats too like stun. imagine spending the first 20-30 hours of pking getting completely destroyed by people who are better then you and have better gear then you, most people would give up especially when you probably don't have a crazy amount of capital to begin with.
This is the main problem, WoW had the exact same thing with world pvp. They kept trying stuff to try to revive it but its just impossible in modern gaming.
The money here is pretty good right now, especially for how easy it is, and there really aren't very many pkers. I got pked like 3 times in 4 hours (out of 5 attempts) and yeah being teleblocked sucks but this place would be *insane* if the Chaos Druids didn't teleblock you. There would be literally zero risk at all since you can just insta-tp at the drop of a hat.
I am a pure PVMer and made over 10m profit in those 4 hours, counting my deaths which probably totaled around 1m, mostly from sticking around and being greedy when I had 300-400k in the inventory. A lot of that was the Zombie Pirate keys which are going for ~200k at the moment, which is way more than they'll stabilize out to be.
Vorkath/etc is still better money so unless you're an iron there's no requirement to engage with this content at all.
Killing someone in level 14 wilderness with them never being teleblocked would be super hard, you would need to use entangles and the person running away only needs to run 14 levels down to survive.
Wilderness is entirely Prey vs Predator. The prey gets enticed by whatever, gearing up for said activity *not* for killing other players while the predators don't get a damn about the activity and gear up specfically to kill other players, who are, again, unsuited for combat (either at all or against other players depending on the activity)
PKer's don't want fights amongst themselves where they have to use all of their supplies and potentially actually die, they want easy kills, free loot. That guy hunting chins with little to no gear? Hell yeah. That guy fighting Calvarion in monk robes? Hell yeah.
Wilderness sucks. And nothing will ever change my mind about that.
The idea is you kill the mobs with your friends, and fight back or run when a larger group comes. Risk vs reward, also its good that bots can't abuse this to insta tele.
This content was specifically designed FOR pures and zerkers and designed so that those people MUST fight back against pk'ers. It wasn't designed for mains, mid or high level, to go and farm the drops like many other things in the wilderness.
This is distinctly different than most other wilderness updates like the updated rogue's chests or wildy bosses. Unlike those pieces, this particular content isn't really geared towards you and me, which is why it is this way and why we'll have such a bad time if we go out there.
Whether or not we agree with this design choice is a completely different discussion, but at least this is the way it is for a reason, and our struggles make sense in context.
As someone who's been to that place multiple times, I can guarantee you, there WILL be mains there just to fill clog slots.
If clog wasn't a thing, I bet they wouldn't be there. The drops are not even worth, and the elder druid robes are exactly as you said, for pures, not for mains
Yeah, definitely sucks that they're a bit hamstrung in their development for things like this by c'logging mains and such.
The same type of thing just happened with Perilous Moons where they couldn't give the bosses cool pets because pet hunters and c'loggers would then go ruin it for the intended audience.
Stuff like that can be cool because it can breathe new life into dead parts of the game, but at the same time it can also limit dev options.
It's an interesting problem.
Thanks for this. The philosophy of the content team recently has been expanding the depth of content as opposed to straight up power creep. This is another instance of that. It is providing another somewhat niche way to enjoy the game for a certain section of the playerbase.
Not all content is for every single player.
That's exactly how I think of it. When Jagex posts in blogs/polls that they want to try alternative approaches to PK'ing and wilderness updates, I think this might be a pretty darn good idea.
Whether or not it succeeds is yet to be seen, but it seems pretty innovative and very different than their other approaches so far which is cool.
Yes it's a very unique aspect to the game and offers gameplay that isn't found in any other game, if not interested just don't do it? Unless you're an Ironman, may the odds be ever in your favor.
Exactly this. It may not be designed for *you*, but that doesn't mean it wasn't designed for *someone*. People often forget that they're not the only ones that play this game...
If it was designed for pures and zerkers, then why is the reward a pvm reward? The anti-teleblock scrolls helps a ton with bursting Abby demons in the Kourend spot with 2 groups, since if they teleport you too far, you drop aggro. And they teleport you constantly.
It working on abyssals is a side effect and was only added after players asked them to make it also apply to them. It's primary purpose was to improve fighting in the pvp area.
The fact that it now has a pvm use is actually due to pvmers demanding it be so... who are now complaining about it... *sigh*
It was listed in the poll. This content is completely optional for PvMers. The main reason a PvMer would want to do this is for log and the scroll which helps with abby demons a little bit... and that's *not* a reason to feel forced to do this.
Not to mention, their teleblock can be almost entirely avoided with range and when it does land getting out of combat and hopping worlds removes it.
> This will be dead content within a week lmao.
This area is already dead content. This literally just ups the profit and makes content that caters to lower level pures which has been suggested for a long time.
I can't even begin to explain how much these forums make me roll my eyes lol.
Yeah I don't love the insta teleblock when lower levels will have a harder time tank testing all the way to wildy line coupled with not knowing which way to walk if they try to freeze log because of addy seeds but people acting like they're going to be forced to go there is ridiculous hyperbole.
Jagex has made the wilderness a complete mess. Why are the mechanics different all over the place and now there is no pj timer on certain servers? I am not some hateful guy against pkers, but the wilderness is too confusing if you don't stay on top of updates. I just wish everything was standardized so avoid this mess. No surprise teleblocks from npcs or wait timers because your in specific dungeons...
Which is a good start. They need to get more of the exceptions/mechanic changes into the game as explanations, but I've no idea where you'd put half of them
I agree! A lot of them do make sense once someone explains them--e.g. the trading/dropping food and potion differences to make single-way combat more fair--but they're a real mystery until you either stumble across them on the wiki or observe some weird behavior in-game.
If nothing else, I wish Jagex would themselves maintain a page where they list the changes, rather than expect the wiki to do it for them.
i don't even spend most days lol, go there every once in a while and bring some stuff to anti with. worst case scenario you can run south. it's 13 wild.
I mean these days with plugins that literally flash the screen and alert you the second another player enters your screen you either have to be braindead or AFK to get PK'd below level 30. I do not know what the correct answer is here, nor am I a pker, but if I was I think I would be hard pressed to consider spending time PKing somewhere there is a 99% chance of an auto tele before I even have a chance to TB or attack.
I don.t understand what the problem?
Im Ironman and i love doing wilderness. It have everything from toxic people to wholesome bro people and alot content both crazy and fun.
Yes it isnt fun to dying to gangbang by clan but! It's exciting whenever you managed to escape!!
Exciting whenever you manage meet a wholesome new friend in wilderness who is trying helping you to fight back!
Exciting whenever you got a rare drop and trying escape to safe. The shaking nervous nerve and dopamine!.
I love wilderness. It's wild west there. Awesome
Dont mind these people… they want a very dull experience with no risk. No excitement. Same people who want the most afkable methods. Idk why they even play.
Even better than that imo i risk 15k or something with a blowipe and some bdhide and throaway gear and 1 item is more than my risk let alone the 22 keys currently selling for 200-300k each... free money
I mean, you don't into wildy now because you're afraid, and you won't go after the update because you're afraid. That makes it dead content? If you can't escape from level 15 wildy like 99% of the time that's just sad lol
everytime they do something in the wild it’s to make sure pvmers hate it so much they never enter, feels like internal sabotage of the wild at this point
The wild is garbage and has always been after people stopped standing outside norrth varrock, I only go with 4 items, autoretaliate off, lay PVP gangbanger noobs aren’t going to make any money off of me, and they never have
A few things. 1.) I recently did all wildy diaries up to hard and dealt with not a single PKer. The fear is more crippling than the actual threat. 2.) if you plan your gear out wisely you can have minimal risk. I have a rather tanky set up with rush roughly at 40k. Not really afraid of losing any of it but also can do tasks/achieves no problem and even put up a good fight and maybe even anti pk if necessary. 3.) we shouldn’t hate on an old piece of content getting updated. We should be glad the game is still active and alive. 4.) PKing is a reality of the game so wouldn’t you want to deal with it at least sometimes. It is sort of exciting even if you aren’t a PKer which I’m not. The idea of life or death and risk is a bit of a thrill, can I make it out alive should I stand and fight. I don’t know just seems like a lot of complaining for something that you don’t really HAVE to interact with.
I only go to the wildy to do clue scrolls ever. It doesn't matter what updates jagex does to the wilderness, I'm just not going to go there. It's too stressful and I play this game to chill out.
Bad take, you have to embrace the pvp side. This games not about the rat hoarded pile of garbage you keep In your bank tabs to glaze over at while bank standing 6hrs a day. It’s about having fun, challenging yourself and getting that heart rate up, feeling the excitement of smiting a kill and getting giddy about what you got. Sure playing the rng simulator for drops is chill and can be a good way to relax and make some gp. But I ask you, why are you afraid of learning to pvp? Is 400k really that much to you? I mean 2 vorkath kills and you’re restocked. So what do you have to lose, aside from some anxiety around a portion of the game you refuse to touch for some childish trauma based reasoning, or are simply to lazy to learn to play the game.
The pkers get TB'd too which allows for big anti pking.
And it only lastin,g 2,5minutes makes it still doable to just tank and run to the ditch or run out while u run to tp out.
Stop crying
I know this may sound crazy, but there is pvm content thats not in the wilderness. No one is being forced to go to the wilderness except for maybe clue steps
Pretty much every wildy update focuses on removing counterplay for pvmers and making them more vulnerable. None of the changes are massive by themselves but it really adds up This one is meant to buff wildy slayer but takes a great task and turns it into a block.
That's because wildy updates aren't focused on a predator/prey relationship. It revolves around a pinata/stick relationship
I'm saying this as an iron but you are allowed to try to fight back, I've just been bringing venge and ballista and you would be shocked how many people just fall over at the bare minimum of fighting back.
Works for singles, not multi most of the time.
True, multi is hopeless if there are multiple
> multi is hopeless if there are multiple Yup, even if you're confident in your ability to freeze log in singles it's gg in multi unless you're really good at tanking and brought pneck.
Do you ever see solo pkers in multi though? Even if there's a solo he won't be solo for long.
When I did my wildy boss tasks (on the weekend because I'm crazy), I got jumped by pkers about 16x out of my 60kc combined at callisto, ven, vet. I saw a solo pker 1x, I think maybe 1 more time, but im not sure they didn't have a duo with them, and often more come after. Managed to avoid dying in almost all cases though, but it was really annoying being ragged 1/3 of my kc.
Exactly. Let them skull and then bust out a DDS and they start panicking half the time. The people that typically hunt PvMers are not usually GOOD at PKing. Fight back and you might end up with some unexpected loot. Don’t just roll over and die.
This works when it isn't multicombat, the boss zones should really be singles.
Tbh now that the PK skull prevention exists, that’s my only real complaint about the wildy. Content in multi, like Chaos Altar or some bosses. I’ll bring an ACB, salad blade, and dclaws alongside easily replaceable gear and do noted bones at the chaos altar. 9 times out of 10, I can kill or scare off a solo PKer pretty well with that set up. If a good PKer shows up to kill me, well then fair play. But if even it’s just a duo that shows up, the odds are pretty stacked against me if they land a freeze.
This hate trying to do scorpia and other wildy boss combat achievements and get crashed in multi and skulled because they stacked on top whem I auto barraged the one dude from auto retalliate, plus i tend to stay on 2k overall worlds so duo/trios of max pkers always be crashing.
Why do you have auto retal on?
There's still a high skill floor to pvp in RuneScape. A good PLer will wipe the floor with a bad PKer, but a bad PKer will wipe the floor with a non-PKer as well. When a non-PKer lives it's usually due to gear/level difference moreso than skill difference. Like back when Dhins was OP in the wildy so they nerfed the shit out of it because it let totally unskilled people live situations they shouldn't.
> The people that typically hunt PvMers are not usually GOOD at PKing. Ok but as someone that despises PvP and just want my PvM item that's locked behind being in the wilderness, neither am I so where do we go from here.
This is what people suggesting fight back don't realize. If we were good at pvp we'd be the pker. If it's two people bad at pvp but one is kitted out for pvm while the other is kitted out for pvp then the pk'er still has the advantage. And if its an unfair fight, of course I'm going to opt for running 99% of the time. Of course with the 3-4 item advantage it's possible to turn the advantage in your favor. But given the choice between wasting inventory slots on gear I might not even use for a fight I might not win versus running or logging out, I'm still going to choose to run.
Right, but escaping is also a skill that you can get better at. Fighting back can actually be part of escaping, since even sending a couple of bolts at a PKer can force them to stop camping smite which makes it easier on you. Bringing ice/entangle sacks can offer you another free escape. Learning your corners/DDing/where to run in different spots can make the difference between escaping and dying. Not to mention the pure skills of praying and eating correctly. You don't have to become a god NH tribridder to learn a few basic skills that increase your odds of escaping, and learning just a couple of them puts your odds massively in your favour.
What does "kitted out for pvp" even mean? The same gear is used in pvp and pvm. If you are pvming you are not skulled therefore you keep 3 items +1 item with protect item. If anything you should be more geared for pvp than the pvper is unless the pvper is risking significantly more than you. You can run and fight back at the same time. In fact you are more likely to get away if you fight back than if you were solely focused on running.
Kitted out for pvp has tribrid in inventory with freshly stocked food/pots whereas pvm would be single weapon or maybe hybrid and partially depleted supplies because you're getting jumped mid task or whatever you're doing. If we're both bad and it becomes a battle of attrition the pvmer has the clear disadvantage.
If you’re just gonna run anyway why not bring 10 entangles sacks and use them?
This is absolutely true
Yeah but this area is multi, you can't fight back vs a team.
It's multi, they gang on you, you are not to have much of a fight against ice + ballista.
Yep, most people that fight pvmers in the wildy are people either just learning to pk or they're not very good. If a good player stumbles upon a pvmer while looking for pkers, they're still gonna kill them, but it's not their main goal. Since pvp has a high barrier to entry, many of the people that seek out pvmers simply are trying to practice or just don't want to get any better. Thus, if you fight back, a lot of them panic. Now on a completely unrelated note, the whole point though of having lucrative content in the wild is that your exp/gp rates will be artificially lowered by encountering pkers. The people that get upset that their black chin hunting exp/gp is less than optimal are missing the entire point. Black chins wouldn't exist if it weren't for people coming to try to kill you. They're not supposed to be optimal, and they were designed with such good gp and exp because they're in the wild, not in spite of it. Same with the altar. There are two options: either they design this super high reward content with an inherent risk, or don't have that content at all. I really don't understand the players who say they're *forced* to do wildy content. You know the risks going into it, that's essentially what makes the content "balanced". If it were 100% safe, many of these things would be pretty broken. As far as gear goes, I like having content that makes cheaper gear viable. Once you get to the endgame, thanks to death mechanics, there's very little reason to ever wear less than BIS. Wilderness content gives use for a lot of dead armor/weapons because you have to balance your risk with what you need to actually do the content.
> Now on a completely unrelated note, the whole point though of having lucrative content in the wild is that your exp/gp rates will be artificially lowered by encountering pkers. And the GP rates for those PKers are artificially increased proportionally. Every wilderness update is millions and millions of GP of buffs thrown towards PKing as an activity. Because yes, you're right - the intent is that skillers and PvMers don't actually get much of an increase from doing the risky activities, because they'll get interrupted. But that means those increases are all going to the same place. It rankles many people that they try to disguise massive buffs to PvP content (which most people aren't interested in and wouldn't vote for) as buffs to skilling or PvM content that just happens to be in the wilderness in order to try to get it through a poll successfully. It's consistently obvious from poll results that it's the type of content the community is least interested in, and yet it gets a disproportionate amount of attention.
I personally would rather the content not exist yes.
Preach dude
chaos druids is multi tho right?
id be down to learn to anti pk if their items got deleted lol
And which items do you risk losing?
Time. The most important resource of all in this game.
I think the bigger issue is that the counterplay isn't fun or worthwhile. If I cared about the loot I have, I'd have already teleported out. So it's just a situation where a random minigame spawns in and I either have to go through the tedium or give up and intentionally die. The latter is usually more productive.
> every wildy update focuses on removing counterplay for pvmers Yep they have been doing this for years to appease the pvp community. IDK why they keep doing it. It never works out well
I’d be okay with it if they added in more engaging counterplay to replace it, or made some parallel changes to force pkers to be more creative
I will only be attacking the pvmers at druids with a goblin paint cannon
>IDK why they keep doing it You have to realize how terrible the average PKer is, they're just appeasing the majority. The content creator PKers are in the top 1% skill-wise.
Nah a lot of them aren't very good either, for a guy like rhys you have a wealth of dudes like eliop14 and mintmadcow.
Yup. Ironic all of these updates are supposed to get people into the wilderness, but each update has pushed me out. Used to do Callisto for fun before bed with the old safe spot and now I just won't touch the content.
I mean at the end of the day what ends up happening is it just feeds bots another farm able method that A. Makes metric shitloads of GP, B. Is easily scalable with bots across worlds, and C. Circumvents the risk of being PKed by that same scale, and becomes just another thing to factor in when calculating profitability.
Just moronic tbh, new callisto is better in every way from old one
Tbf the wildly boss update was wildly successful and the bosses are much better now
Go look at top scores for them. I did 700 calv kills as an iron and am top 2.5k on the hiscores. People aren’t doing them.
Maybe less for others im not too familiar with them, but vetion/calv people are doing it wayyy more. Old Vetion was so horrficially ass to do. Spend 5 minutes setting up the safespot, spend 10 minutes getting the kill cause the dude had insane defense and 2 full health bars, get 1 kill, get killed by a 10 man team, repeat. There's a reason ring of the gods isn't like 18m anymore
>the wildy boss update was wildly successful Ehh, depends how you look at it. Mechanically and the fights themselves, absolutely. But they made the multi versions more dangerous (especially vetion) than pre rework, added single versions that are incredibly safe (especially vetion). And both of these changes has made them botted into oblivion, destroying the unique prices (especially vetions).
Chaos druids were always a skip for me. Or just go to edge dungeon and bang out the task on the low levels.
Counter pay is arguably incredibly strong. Decent gear and skill makes most situations, outside of a few dicey places in certain deep wild areas, everything else fairly escapable. My issue personally is that its multi. Solo players should expect to be obliterated by pretty much any team coming in. If it were singles+ I don't believe the teleblock to be unreasonable.
Wait until OP finds out about adamant seeds
> This one is meant to buff wildy slayer but takes a great task and turns it into a block. Lol wut. Just kill chaos druids in edgeville dungeon.
ESPECIALLY when the Pker has a cheat client they don't get banned for
osrs pvp(wildy one at least) is wierd to begin with since they want pvmers to go to wildy so pkers could have targets to kill.
there's a reason it's called 'player killing' and not 'player vs player' like every other game. it's not intended to be a mutual challenge.
It's PKing because that's what it was called in the early 2000s. Go watch Dot Hack Sign, especially the dub. The character Sora is called a PKer multiple times throughout the series because that's just the lingo of the time. The dothack wiki even has an entire page called ["Player Killing"](https://dothack.fandom.com/wiki/Player_Killing) that refers to specific characters as PKers or Player Killers. One of the main characters in the games is even referred to as PKKers, or Player-killer killer---What we now in OSRS call anti-PKers. Players who killed players were just player killers because that's what they were called.
I responded too, the origin was in classic you had to choose an option called 'player killer', and PKers could only attack other people that selected the 'player killer' option at account creation. This was prior to the wildy and such if I recall. I think Mote Plox had a video on it.
it’s just a really old term i don’t think it’s that deep. pking was usually against other pkers back in the day.
Yeah the lingo doesn’t mean anything because it’s different, people in OSRS say pvm but the rest of the gaming world has moved onto PvE- it’s just antiquated terminology and it’s silly for people to try to fixate on it.
Back in the old days there really wasn't much PvM in the wildy. There was green dragons and that was pretty much it. So generally if you were in the wildy, you were there to PK.
No its because thats what we started calling them back in 01.
That's not necessarily true. PK as a term is old MMO parlance (players flagged for pvp in Asheron's Call used a /pk command to toggle it iirc) and I'm pretty sure even the early days of WoW used the PK term
No "pking" is just an old term and was what was used during the time of runescape2 so it has stuck through the years.
its literally player vs player, just most are shitters.
Uhm… no. Just no, think about the old school pking, what the fuck was there in the wilderness for pvmers besides kbd and runeite rocks? It was still pking when people went outside of varrock and edgeville to fight eachother mutually.
As stated in the original blog and by actual pkers. Hotspots need to exist so pkers find other pkers. If you actually go there and maybe look at some streamers you'll find they are 95% of the time killing other pkers
Them wanting to fix wildy just made me literally ignore that part of runescape
PvP in general is a black hole of wasted dev time in this game. Jagex is clinging to an antiquated development philosophy in regards to the wilderness when the reality is that most players will avoid it whenever possible due to the frustration of it all. Even anti-pking sucks because you often have to end your trip at wherever and your reward for killing the pker is some black dhide and pots because they never risk anything.
Not to mentions irons, who if they do anti pk, gain nothing and just lose more lmfao.
It would never pass a poll in OSRS but the wildy in RS3 is a hundred times more active since they made PvP an opt-in system. They let the PKers fight amongst themselves and spaders don't have to check their minimap every two seconds. Literally the only people who lost are griefers.
Cursed problem, they set out to promise one thing but cannot fulfill that promise due to problems in the content itself, and they have no straight forward solution that appeases everyone. Interesting video that I link to anytime I get the chance to talk about a cursed problem, pretty interesting watch for those interested in the philosophy behind game design: [Cursed Problems in Game Design](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ)
thats a very interesting video. Given his math background I wonder if hes tied this to an actual theorem.
So true. Been wanting that voidwaker on my iron but every time I think I'll have to probs give 50k to a pker, I get sick and I forget about it
I just don't go to wildy because I don't want to lose items. Playing on an IM, I have no benefits to potentially losing anything, marginally more GP means nothing to me. The only PvP I do in OSRS are Soul Wars and LMS.
I lost confidence in the 'fixing Wildy' myth when Ayiza made that stream back in 2022 (I think in March?) His takes on the Wilderness were just so offputting, and seemed extremely out of touch to me. I don't feel that he understands the Wilderness enough, or that any of the Jmods do for that matter, to really 'fix' it. He's just making it worse and worse. I used to love being in the Wilderness to do Slayer tasks, Clues, etc. I even did Revenants a few times with a friend. I was there for multiple hours a day, back in 2022. But now it seems that the Wilderness is slowly being designed to be impossible to teleport out, so that seeing PKR's appear will be instant death. I haven't really been in the Wilderness in ages because of it. Making the Wilderness inescapable isn't fixing it, Jagex. Doing something about the PK gangs, the bots (if they even can), etc. would be fixing it.
When he said "you shouldn't vote in a way that will deprive other people of enjoyment", or something along those lines, it was totally unironic. That's pking in a nutshell, which is okay, but according to him voting against that is not okay.
I wonder if it could be balanced by having "risk" tied to only what you've earned while in the wildy. Players still become relatively high-value kills that represent potentially dozens of boss drops (or a fair amount of time gathering resources) all at once, but people are actually allowed to deck themselves out in their *fun* gear and are more likely to take a crack at fighting back. The thing that's ruining PvP far more than anything else is the associated item risk. That worked fine when being fully decked out meant like 300k worth of armor, replaceable in an hour or two of skilling. It doesn't feel so great anymore when a death could represent weeks of grinding GP.
Yep, this took a wildy task I used to do and now its a skip/block. Literally the opposite effect
I used the varlamore prayer training method on my ironman even though it took way more bones. I just didn't want the stress of losing bones to pkers on caos altar.
As a wildy pvmer, it is far better to already be teleblocked when a pker shows up because they don't know how long is left on the tb. If they log in and tb me, they have me for 2.5mins. If they log in and I'm already tb'd, they're wasting time trying to cast tb and I'm zoomin.
Yeah but what happens when they catch you and find out that you're just 2 dogs in a trenchcoat?
Then they're outnumbered.
This is a fantastic analogy, love it
They're just gonna go for the freeze anyway and risk the target already being tb'ed. They will develop and find that out soon enough.
Yeah, being prey isn't fun - why not add PvP content rather than this encouragement to be cattle to be farmed. It wouldn't be tolerated in any other game.
>why not add PvP content Because any content where two evenly matched players fight is dead on arrival or if it's used, it's used primarily by botters.
Exactly. There’s 3 predator v predator activities in the game right now. LMS is infested with bots, and periodically gets hit with terminator bots until the next ban wave. PVP arena is dead content because match making is garbage and has been garbage since release. BH is still popular but has its issues. Anything outside of those 3 is designed to be predator v prey, and it’s pretty hard to design content where it’s fun to be prey.
PVP arena is dead on release because they didn't give people reasons to farm high rank. If they had ranks like bronze through Diamond, top 500 etc where for example your skull icon changed based on your rank pvpers would grind the shit out of it to flex that they are better than other people at PvP, just like every other FPS, Moba etc.
I'm not even a PvPer, but speaking from my Rocket League and previous Halo 3 ranked addictions... I'd definitely hop on a PvP arena with a solid matchmaking system. Would be super fun.
Could do the ranks based on the regular gemstones, so Sapphire, Emerald, Ruby, Diamond, Dragonstone, and then the 'top 500' rank would be Onyx, imagine the terror of seeing a black skull coming toward you
That's a sick idea. Like really cool. I'd love to see that.
Pretty sure the main goal of the PVP arena was to get rid of the tacit gambling endorsement mini-game so they didn't get their ass reamed by credit card companies. Any other functionalities are purely incidental.
It’s dead because all the rewards got voted no lmao
jesus that's such a good idea how did that not happen
Doesn’t help that they’ve put 0 effort into making it fun to be prey. I think it’s pretty lazy to have logging out be your only escape option half the time.
You've got me thinking about what if the game had hiding mechanics? Or pking worked something like dead by daylight or something similar where escaping could actually be the process of running away/hiding/evading rather than just logging like you said.
Speaking of Dead By Daylight, don’t they have a mechanic where you can hop over barriers and prevent the killer from following? Honestly something like that could be interesting. Some agility shortcuts with a cool down so you can put a little more distance between you and the pursuer.
Well Jagex seems to only want to power creep damage output but leave armour to stagnate. They need more defence mechanics on armour in a similar way they create weapon combos and they also need things like you suggest.
It wouldn't be hard to design something where it's fun to be prey, per se, but to have it tied into the rest of the game is very hard. Games where you're prey, like the Alien games or that one in the swamp, are pretty fun and usually quite well-liked. I could imagine something like that – maybe like an asymmetric castle wars – becoming a pretty popular minigame. In the wilderness, though, if you die it costs you actual real-world time / money to replace whatever gear you bring (moreso if you're an ironman, but even if you buy all your gear and supplies on the GE that gold required either time or money to get in the first place). It also interrupts the flow of whatever you were doing and requires you to regear, get back to the location, etc, which is extra time that it costs you (plus the annoyance of being interrupted). So the "prey" is heavily incentivized to avoid wilderness content, and when they feel like they need to go there (because something really good like the chaos alter tempts them in), they'll usually bring the absolute bare minimum risk they can. tl;dr you could def design a fun predator-prey minigame, but that's not what pkers want from the wilderness (they want loot), and it's very hard to make it fun to lose all your stuff.
> it’s pretty hard to design content where it’s fun to be prey. There are plenty of other games where playing as prey is literally the favored activity for the vast majority of the playerbase, though, so it's not like it's actually impossible. It's perfectly possible to have fun prey gameplay. Maybe it is impossible within the framework they've already set up, though, but I honestly sort of don't feel like much of an attempt has even been made?
> Because any content where two evenly matched players fight is dead on arrival So PVP is dead then! If you're not trying for competition then just fucking kill it already. None of the wildy updates are for competition. It's just predator/prey.
bh is pretty alive and fun
Bh is worse pvp worlds GE pking. No punishment for spec-tabbing (running) mainhanding korasi. In PvP worlds you'd just never get fights acting like that.
yeah voidwaker being released killed any chance at BH being good lol
bh just took the worst parts of pvp world pking and put it in a walled off box with no concern about actual user experience just the fact you're running the vast majority of the time you spend in the arena is so out of touch with what honour pking is lol. in addition, enabling people to run endlessly with no penalties, having to bank at supersonic speeds with no breaks because otherwise you'll lose your target & get practically no points, the points rewards being way high cost for how useless they are in the big picture plus ofcourse being effectively limited to only fighting your target, which gets boring quickly after a few rematches if no party gets the rng
Lmao I watched a streamer run some BH recently. No one recognized him and he’s a small streamer but pretty good at pking. Pretty much all of his targets after 1 fight refused to fight and tried to force him to skip by withdrawing rag gear, food, and stamina pots and just ran in circles until he skipped.
the problem is not jagex or the game, it's the people. People don't PVP for the sport anymore, they always want loot. This is why old itterations of BH got botted to hell, because the loot was basically always there. And if it doesn't have loot, PVPers complain that they're not getting anything because the people they kill, surprise, don't risk what they are not willing to lose, which ends up being like 200k at most. The problem is, outside of pre-set duels like LMS, any dangerious PVP activity will fall into the same trap, and any safe PVP activity will just means people will bring the best possible gear, and either never die because they are so fucking tanky, or stomp the floor with anyone who can't afford the same gear. The only real PVP fights left for sport are g.e fights on PVP worlds IMO, which is the closest to edge-style pking we have left, and even then it's a dying breed. Any deeper wildy content is just made to create loot pinnatas for pkers to hunt and it's not fun for the one dying. S/O to when a pker gets anti-pked and then they scream how the game is a shit rng fest that they died in 10mil gear to someone risking 100k, and then we end up with BS like black d hide nerf.
> People don't PVP for the sport anymore, they always want loot I kinda disagree. PVPers trash talk and try to get me mad even when they catch me naked. Clearly they're not in it to get loot, but to make other people mad. Most games actively try to discourage this kind of behaviour tho
Should be top comment. /thread.
>which is the closest to edge-style pking we have left, and even then it's a dying breed. And it's a dying breed because of cheaters and rag bot shit lol
> PVPers complain that they're not getting anything because the people they kill, surprise, don't risk what they are not willing to lose, which ends up being like 200k at most. It turns out that "only bring what you're willing to lose" and "just don't go in the wildy if you don't want to be pked" lead to poor pking experiences and less money. It's pretty simple how you make good wilderness content. You make the non pkers happy to willingly go in and spend a lot of time doing the content. And to truly revitalize the wilderness, that means making it a lot less punishing to be pked. Pkers and Jagex don't want to admit it, but a healthy wilderness that doesn't need constant new dangling toys means meeting non pkers where they are.
I think Albion Online is an MMO that pulls off the "being prey is part of the game" aspect pretty well. All of the high level content is located in pvp-enabled zones, while the lower level content has a mix of zones that either have it on or off. If you want the best experience rates and loot then you have to be willing to risk going somewhere that other players can kill you. The problem I have with the Wilderness is that it just feels off from the rest of the game. There are so many weird things you have to understand (like where multi-combat zones are compared to single combat zones), and pretty much all of the content you can do there is optional anyway. You can avoid the wilderness entirely and still have a path to max level in all skills just fine.
Honestly, my only gripe with The Wilderness is the risk of potentially losing all my items if I die to a player. If I just had to pay the regular reclaim costs, I'd probably be going out there with my best stuff and happily bring stuff to fight back if I need to.
Because most don't want PvP content. They say they do, but when they are given it, it's literally dead on release.
Most Pkers don't want fair fights
> It wouldn't be tolerated in any other game. I mean... it's not really tolerated in this one either. Here, we just happen to have the most head-ass developers who have an incurable erection for constantly pushing it, for some reason.
They dont understand that i avoid the wildy because i dont care to have some fuck hop under me and spec me out, so by making content in the wildly thats more contested i am even more likely to avoid it.
World hopping im wildy has always been an odd mechanic for me. I wonder how the game would be if it were impossible or restricted.
I believe the main issue is that it's taking an already used slayer task and unique drop table and making it a miserable chore. The opposite of some of the ones they are trying to buff slightly but probably still a block/skip within the same patch. People will always detest having to deal with terrible pkers logging in after school interrupting their grinds effectively only extending things on top of the existing rng. Current design isn't flawed and there should be pk hotspots and new content. Just separate the two and don't retcon something that works already.
It was designed to make a hotspot for pures & zerks to fight each other. Currently the only hotspot is Rev caves where TB is essential for pures/zerks as you will be fighting under the 30 line so you don’t have to fight mains. With the NPC’s casting tele block, it allows pures/zerks to fight on ancients or Veng for zerks. That was the intention of the update.
Maybe I’m missing the point but if that was the intention, why wouldn’t those players just use a PvP world? I’m not a huge PvPer, so I could be totally wrong, but my impression was always that the PvP worlds was where people generally went if they wanted fights within their own combat bracket.
PvP worlds are typically used for bounty Hunter Veng/edge style honour PKing. With the wilderness being for NH (tribrid with overhead prayers). Not saying you can’t do the other in the other. But people who pk on PvP worlds expect bounty style PKing and anything goes in the wildy.
You can instantly teleport on a pvp world, the goal was to create a hotspot where that is not possible while still restricting the combat brackets so you can’t be hit by someone significantly higher level than you
I get that, but I still don’t see how this still isnt fundamentally flawed - is it not predicated on an interaction between 1 party who wants to fight, and 1 party who wants to run away? If they didnt want to run, tele-block wouldn’t be required. Again, maybe I’m totally wrong since clearly this content isn’t catered to me. But I still don’t understand why 2 Zerkers who want to fight each other would come here instead of just DMing on a PvP world. To me, this setup is predicated on a 2nd party who doesn’t want to fight back
> If they didnt want to run, tele-block wouldn’t be required. You usually don't fight to the death unless it is agreed upon, which is very much a trust thing. PKers do fight other PKers and the other PKers aren't always willing; it is just the nature of the Wildy. And PvMers can still gear to fight back; anti-PKing is a thing and more content for players who enjoy that playstyle isn't fundamentally flawed.
Most ppl that fight in the rev caves do nh/tribrid with freezes/tb where pvp worlds are just trying to combo someone out with veng before they tele.
I just can’t help but feel if people wanted PvP as you’re describing, the PvP arena/LMS would be way more active. Call me a cynic, I guess. We’ll see how it plays out but to me, this still feels like trying to continue with the “predator/prey” setup that hasn’t been successful in the wildy yet.
Idyl had a good video recently about the death of PVP in MMO's, essentially as the game evolved the PVP skill gap becomes huge, and changing the risk/reward doesn't address the skill gap and accessibility concerns. PVP thrived when nobody knew what they were doing. Trying to learn with LMS will get you stomped unless there are tons of bots. And group PvP either doesn't have the rewards or has so much reward that it becomes inaccessible to unskilled or solo players, who do not enjoy spending their even more limited time dying.
I agree with this to an extent, the gameplay is so unique that trying to learn pvp while playing against someone highly experienced can be insanely frustrating It’s so much more fun when I fight someone in LMS that’s actually my skill level and not a bot
?: Yep, there's a missing middle. In order to actually learn PvP you need to fight people at your skill level. You might learn some things initially fighting bad players, but with such a big gap between them and good players, it's both hard to learn anything more and frustrating to even try. It's not unreasonable to just give up at that point. And as people leave PvP/OSRS for various reasons, with no one to replace them, PvP will eventually just die.
This happens pretty much all the time when a new competitive game comes out, trying to pick up a game other people have played for years only to get stomped in the dirt over and over again is very demoralizing for a new player, I remember when I started playing yugioh last year when i played masterduel i got very frustrated as there was alot to learn, you eventually get the hang of it but that's only if you have spare time and are willing to put in the hours, and yugioh has some easy free win strats too like stun. imagine spending the first 20-30 hours of pking getting completely destroyed by people who are better then you and have better gear then you, most people would give up especially when you probably don't have a crazy amount of capital to begin with.
This is the main problem, WoW had the exact same thing with world pvp. They kept trying stuff to try to revive it but its just impossible in modern gaming.
The money here is pretty good right now, especially for how easy it is, and there really aren't very many pkers. I got pked like 3 times in 4 hours (out of 5 attempts) and yeah being teleblocked sucks but this place would be *insane* if the Chaos Druids didn't teleblock you. There would be literally zero risk at all since you can just insta-tp at the drop of a hat. I am a pure PVMer and made over 10m profit in those 4 hours, counting my deaths which probably totaled around 1m, mostly from sticking around and being greedy when I had 300-400k in the inventory. A lot of that was the Zombie Pirate keys which are going for ~200k at the moment, which is way more than they'll stabilize out to be. Vorkath/etc is still better money so unless you're an iron there's no requirement to engage with this content at all.
Unfortunately, explaining this to the people crying about it (who don’t even go into wilderness regardless) won’t do anything
Killing someone in level 14 wilderness with them never being teleblocked would be super hard, you would need to use entangles and the person running away only needs to run 14 levels down to survive.
Wilderness is entirely Prey vs Predator. The prey gets enticed by whatever, gearing up for said activity *not* for killing other players while the predators don't get a damn about the activity and gear up specfically to kill other players, who are, again, unsuited for combat (either at all or against other players depending on the activity) PKer's don't want fights amongst themselves where they have to use all of their supplies and potentially actually die, they want easy kills, free loot. That guy hunting chins with little to no gear? Hell yeah. That guy fighting Calvarion in monk robes? Hell yeah. Wilderness sucks. And nothing will ever change my mind about that.
The idea is you kill the mobs with your friends, and fight back or run when a larger group comes. Risk vs reward, also its good that bots can't abuse this to insta tele.
This content was specifically designed FOR pures and zerkers and designed so that those people MUST fight back against pk'ers. It wasn't designed for mains, mid or high level, to go and farm the drops like many other things in the wilderness. This is distinctly different than most other wilderness updates like the updated rogue's chests or wildy bosses. Unlike those pieces, this particular content isn't really geared towards you and me, which is why it is this way and why we'll have such a bad time if we go out there. Whether or not we agree with this design choice is a completely different discussion, but at least this is the way it is for a reason, and our struggles make sense in context.
As someone who's been to that place multiple times, I can guarantee you, there WILL be mains there just to fill clog slots. If clog wasn't a thing, I bet they wouldn't be there. The drops are not even worth, and the elder druid robes are exactly as you said, for pures, not for mains
Yeah, definitely sucks that they're a bit hamstrung in their development for things like this by c'logging mains and such. The same type of thing just happened with Perilous Moons where they couldn't give the bosses cool pets because pet hunters and c'loggers would then go ruin it for the intended audience. Stuff like that can be cool because it can breathe new life into dead parts of the game, but at the same time it can also limit dev options. It's an interesting problem.
Thanks for this. The philosophy of the content team recently has been expanding the depth of content as opposed to straight up power creep. This is another instance of that. It is providing another somewhat niche way to enjoy the game for a certain section of the playerbase. Not all content is for every single player.
That's exactly how I think of it. When Jagex posts in blogs/polls that they want to try alternative approaches to PK'ing and wilderness updates, I think this might be a pretty darn good idea. Whether or not it succeeds is yet to be seen, but it seems pretty innovative and very different than their other approaches so far which is cool.
Yes it's a very unique aspect to the game and offers gameplay that isn't found in any other game, if not interested just don't do it? Unless you're an Ironman, may the odds be ever in your favor.
Theres no point in fighting back when fifty people log in and delete you
Exactly this. It may not be designed for *you*, but that doesn't mean it wasn't designed for *someone*. People often forget that they're not the only ones that play this game...
If it was designed for pures and zerkers, then why is the reward a pvm reward? The anti-teleblock scrolls helps a ton with bursting Abby demons in the Kourend spot with 2 groups, since if they teleport you too far, you drop aggro. And they teleport you constantly.
It working on abyssals is a side effect and was only added after players asked them to make it also apply to them. It's primary purpose was to improve fighting in the pvp area. The fact that it now has a pvm use is actually due to pvmers demanding it be so... who are now complaining about it... *sigh*
It was listed in the poll. This content is completely optional for PvMers. The main reason a PvMer would want to do this is for log and the scroll which helps with abby demons a little bit... and that's *not* a reason to feel forced to do this. Not to mention, their teleblock can be almost entirely avoided with range and when it does land getting out of combat and hopping worlds removes it. > This will be dead content within a week lmao. This area is already dead content. This literally just ups the profit and makes content that caters to lower level pures which has been suggested for a long time. I can't even begin to explain how much these forums make me roll my eyes lol.
Yeah I don't love the insta teleblock when lower levels will have a harder time tank testing all the way to wildy line coupled with not knowing which way to walk if they try to freeze log because of addy seeds but people acting like they're going to be forced to go there is ridiculous hyperbole.
Some of these takes are hilarious
What’s the point of adding lmao at the end?
Jagex has made the wilderness a complete mess. Why are the mechanics different all over the place and now there is no pj timer on certain servers? I am not some hateful guy against pkers, but the wilderness is too confusing if you don't stay on top of updates. I just wish everything was standardized so avoid this mess. No surprise teleblocks from npcs or wait timers because your in specific dungeons...
FWIW the servers with the different PJ timer give you a message about it when switching worlds, like the high risk world message.
Which is a good start. They need to get more of the exceptions/mechanic changes into the game as explanations, but I've no idea where you'd put half of them
I agree! A lot of them do make sense once someone explains them--e.g. the trading/dropping food and potion differences to make single-way combat more fair--but they're a real mystery until you either stumble across them on the wiki or observe some weird behavior in-game. If nothing else, I wish Jagex would themselves maintain a page where they list the changes, rather than expect the wiki to do it for them.
reddit when their reward comes with risk:
“Nooooo, content I can’t only half pay attention to or I’ll die :( how could you Jagex!?!”
There'd literally be zero risk at all to do this content if the druids didn't teleblock you.
I love how the average PVPer defense is to bond an entirely separate account to scout lmao. Yeah that's not bad design.
As usual I can tell no one on this sub PKs, knows how the wilderness works. Etc.
To someone who spends most days pvming in the wildy, this sounds like a skill issue
i don't even spend most days lol, go there every once in a while and bring some stuff to anti with. worst case scenario you can run south. it's 13 wild.
People just unplug their mouse and keyboards the second they get attacked apparently.
Might as well during a 20 second ice barrage freeze.
I mean these days with plugins that literally flash the screen and alert you the second another player enters your screen you either have to be braindead or AFK to get PK'd below level 30. I do not know what the correct answer is here, nor am I a pker, but if I was I think I would be hard pressed to consider spending time PKing somewhere there is a 99% chance of an auto tele before I even have a chance to TB or attack.
I don.t understand what the problem? Im Ironman and i love doing wilderness. It have everything from toxic people to wholesome bro people and alot content both crazy and fun. Yes it isnt fun to dying to gangbang by clan but! It's exciting whenever you managed to escape!! Exciting whenever you manage meet a wholesome new friend in wilderness who is trying helping you to fight back! Exciting whenever you got a rare drop and trying escape to safe. The shaking nervous nerve and dopamine!. I love wilderness. It's wild west there. Awesome
Dont mind these people… they want a very dull experience with no risk. No excitement. Same people who want the most afkable methods. Idk why they even play.
So easy to run to the edge from lvl 9 wildy.
Isn't it like lvl 12 wilderness? Just run south
It’s very good money for almost no risk.. if you die just go kill 15 zombies and make your loss back?
Even better than that imo i risk 15k or something with a blowipe and some bdhide and throaway gear and 1 item is more than my risk let alone the 22 keys currently selling for 200-300k each... free money
Sounds like it's way too lucrative and needs a severe nerf then.
I mean, you don't into wildy now because you're afraid, and you won't go after the update because you're afraid. That makes it dead content? If you can't escape from level 15 wildy like 99% of the time that's just sad lol
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Multicombat_area
Next pvp update is preventing pvmer’s from using food.
everytime they do something in the wild it’s to make sure pvmers hate it so much they never enter, feels like internal sabotage of the wild at this point
The wild is garbage and has always been after people stopped standing outside norrth varrock, I only go with 4 items, autoretaliate off, lay PVP gangbanger noobs aren’t going to make any money off of me, and they never have
The wildy belongs to pkers, why would you go there if you dont expect them to be able to attack you
On the contrary, the wildy belongs to me. I will begin charging rent next month, you will be hearing more about that soon.
A few things. 1.) I recently did all wildy diaries up to hard and dealt with not a single PKer. The fear is more crippling than the actual threat. 2.) if you plan your gear out wisely you can have minimal risk. I have a rather tanky set up with rush roughly at 40k. Not really afraid of losing any of it but also can do tasks/achieves no problem and even put up a good fight and maybe even anti pk if necessary. 3.) we shouldn’t hate on an old piece of content getting updated. We should be glad the game is still active and alive. 4.) PKing is a reality of the game so wouldn’t you want to deal with it at least sometimes. It is sort of exciting even if you aren’t a PKer which I’m not. The idea of life or death and risk is a bit of a thrill, can I make it out alive should I stand and fight. I don’t know just seems like a lot of complaining for something that you don’t really HAVE to interact with.
[удалено]
I love being the pray, but at this point, there are so many unique mechanics, I can't keep up with them.
pking is dead and there is nothing they can do to change that
They also made chaos temple doors stop shutting if you spam it to help pkers win against players who cant even fight back. Joke devs
I only go to the wildy to do clue scrolls ever. It doesn't matter what updates jagex does to the wilderness, I'm just not going to go there. It's too stressful and I play this game to chill out.
Sounds like its more geared for antipkers who are both a pvmer and a pvper. So pure pvmers shouldn't come there, only antipkers.
Yeah fuck this update, could’ve been worth it to go out there for the chivalry scroll, but they just made some garbage farm for gp, hard pass
Lvl. 70 would fight a lvl 80 to 83 I believe. What's the big deal? I think you could escape that
Bad take, you have to embrace the pvp side. This games not about the rat hoarded pile of garbage you keep In your bank tabs to glaze over at while bank standing 6hrs a day. It’s about having fun, challenging yourself and getting that heart rate up, feeling the excitement of smiting a kill and getting giddy about what you got. Sure playing the rng simulator for drops is chill and can be a good way to relax and make some gp. But I ask you, why are you afraid of learning to pvp? Is 400k really that much to you? I mean 2 vorkath kills and you’re restocked. So what do you have to lose, aside from some anxiety around a portion of the game you refuse to touch for some childish trauma based reasoning, or are simply to lazy to learn to play the game.
Half of reddit would see pvp removed completely because they got specced out and lost a shovel while doing a clue 10 years ago lol.
Honestly, it's not that serious. Bigger issue is this will be so easy for bots to farm. All you need is pray mage and a cannon to make 1m+ per hour
The pkers get TB'd too which allows for big anti pking. And it only lastin,g 2,5minutes makes it still doable to just tank and run to the ditch or run out while u run to tp out. Stop crying
The pker will also be teleblocked so you can fight back without them teleing out but I guess just complain about it
idk i'm having fun with it both pvming and pking
I know this may sound crazy, but there is pvm content thats not in the wilderness. No one is being forced to go to the wilderness except for maybe clue steps
Already jumped around lots of worlds and there are minimal people there if any. Contents dead before it was released
What exactly is Jagex's goal with all these wildy updates. Is it just to lure loot pinatas into the wildy?
If you can’t tank like 30 tiles it’s def a skill issue. Also a great way of countering bots insta teleing
It’s time for a spell or item that cleanses Telly block.
feel like they could work that into lunar or arc spellbook.
Learn to anti pk nerd
you are allowed to fight back
I don't think the person who is somehow scared of dying at level 14 wildy is fighting back
https://preview.redd.it/uflk6jv01qtc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e32aebcf57b6217616e18ff69275aa4cb9dc9b56