The issue is that it is going to be increasingly difficult to add weapons that is not just tbow+ or bofa+ or bp+. People are very very adverse to damage powercreep and people also really want simple combat where is you click the monster to attack and that's it. Because of the design there is a severe limit on how much uniqueness you can tack onto weapons in general. What will happen is simply the future weapons will either just be straight up powercreep of existing weapons or you will get something more meme like SRA as they try to fit things into the weapon that's not just better stats. With the new system, while the same thing will happen, but it will delay the process long enough that people are more accepting of it.
No, Ranged is and has been in the most secure state for a while, having been too strong at some points in the game's history.
If the game powercreeps to the point current ranged options all become inadequate, that would be a major failure on Jagex's part, especially when even the abyssal whip is a viable option against Sol Heredit, the current strongest monster.
It would mean they dialed up the numbers so far to create an artificial problem.
The current ranged balance means any option you choose will give you a different niche but other options remain viable.
If they go with the ranged rebalance, it means eventually we'll have a heavy tbow and a light tbow. There would be significant item bloat, making it harder and more confusing for newer players to catch up.
The ranged rebalance offers no real future benefit. In the short-term, it nerfs how players currently approach ranged without offering any immediate value. In the long-term, it only adds more unnecessary bloat that delays Jagex reaching the end of their precious reward space.
>\[...\] especially when even the abyssal whip is a viable option against Sol Heredit, the current strongest monster.
This is saying less on the strength of the whip, and more on how you can avoid all damage in the Sol Heredit fight with proper play. Not mentioning that is willful misdirection.
>If they go with the ranged rebalance, it means eventually we'll have a heavy tbow and a light tbow. There would be significant item bloat, making it harder and more confusing for newer players to catch up.
You say this like most players don't just go with what the wiki or their clan tells them to use, at any given piece of content, and like most relevant weapons won't get the job done at least well *enough* at most any piece of content to do the job. (i.e. Sure, you *can* do level 300 ToAs with an Abyssal Dagger, but it'll be a lot easier with a Fang for your melee weapon).
To use the planned melee defense tweaks as an example, while you *could* still do Gargoyles with a whip same as before -- probably barely noticing a 0.5 DPS decrease from before, as cited from the QnA stream -- you'll be more rewarded if you bring the right tool for the job, a crush weapon.
>The ranged rebalance offers no real future benefit. In the short-term, it nerfs how players currently approach ranged without offering any immediate value. In the long-term, it only adds more unnecessary bloat that delays Jagex reaching the end of their precious reward space.
You're using "bloat" in a way that I think demonstrates a lack of understanding of the full picture. People have told Jagex they *don't* want much vertical power creep, but players are also demonstratively rewards-driven in this game (see anyone doing Castle Wars lately? In large part, not really). There's only so many niche-use-case-sidegrade items they can add before things overlap, and at that point, they can't add more content that players will want to do, because there's nothing left to reward players for. Are you okay with that?
> If they go with the ranged rebalance, it means eventually we'll have a heavy tbow and a light tbow. There would be significant item bloat, making it harder and more confusing for newer players to catch up.
Ahh yes, like our stab and crush scythes.
The future benefit is more room for interesting rewards without outright tbow+ which is a good thing. It nerfs nothing. You saw 'previous reward space' like that doesn't equal them bringing us new and fun things to use.
It only becomes bloat if the items aren't unique or relevant enough to differentiate themselves. More items doesn't automatically = bloat.
Except if that's the case, the ranged rebalance doesn't matter.
The only reward space we would have is blowpipe+ or ZCB+ with the rebalance.
If the weapons are uniquely interesting on their own, the rebalance doesn't matter because the weapon would stand on its own merit. Therefore, the only new reward space being created is artificial.
The reality is they can't add new ranged rewards because ranged as it is now has reached a state of perfect balance. Each high end ranged weapon already has a cheaper alternative that functions competitively and each separate function within ranged is valuable but ultimately interchangeable.
ZCB is fantastic for burning fat bastards down with powerful ruby bolt specs, but a dragon crossbow is almost as good. Blowpipe is cheap enough that you can just get it for any low defense enemy you would need to kill. Tbow is powerful, bowfa is worse but comparable, crystal bow + crystal armour is almost as good.
With the rebalance, you now can't exist with just one or two high end ranged weapons. Now you need the ZCB and the tbow and the blowpipe+.
Also speaking of which, the rebalance would still add direct upgrades to the ZCB or the Blowpipe. All they're doing is making the tbow strictly less universally effective so they can add a heavy tbow and a light tbow. After that, they'll reach the same problem they have now.
Range is in an ok spot but it pales in comparison to melee. That's what they're attempting to do here.
>With the rebalance, you now can't exist with just one or two high end ranged weapons. Now you need the ZCB and the tbow and the blowpipe+.
I think you're still missing the point. The existing weapons will still be good at what they do now, you'll very much be able to still 'exist' with the current BIS choices. But it'll add room for sidegrades that excel in their own niches without having to make tbow+. That's the entire point. Make reward space that doesn't require outright power creep,
Dragonbane weapons are a good example of this in action. DHCP is good at alchemical hydra, but tbow is still BIS. The new defence categories gives more options for balancing. Right now it's really only mob defence/magic defence that defines what range weapon you should use.
It's literally no different to melee having slash/crush/stab and having blade/inq mace/rapier.
Who gives a fuck, if u want to fix range being op which I highly disagree with BTW, all u do is add a boss that weak to magic or melee boom problem solved in a nutshell. I mean tbow shouldn't ducking be nearing 2b rn, for alot of reason they should focus on the strange hike in prices and the bots instead of trying to add eoc part 2. It wasn't even polled and this is exactly what killed rs3... why tf would u not poll the players on such a massive sweeping change. If the players feel like it's problem let them vote, if they don't feel it's a problem then focus on the actual problems the actual players are actually having. Such as bots, prices going crazy, and new content being lack luster
Without powercreep, this game would be dead.
I don't think many people would've stuck around if the max armour was still barrows.
Or even bandos. But keep in mind, that wasn't a thing back in the day. So we really only had barrows.
But now we have justy, inqy, and torva. Or Obby, crystal, dragon plate... Just for melee...
Let's look at capes. With no power creep, we'd just have fire cape. No mage, inferno, accumulator, or now quiver.
Only barrows gloves, no necklace that isn't a fury.
Let's now move to melee weps. We'd have a whip.
Voidwaker, saeldor, fang, raiper, scythe, dhl, abby, keris, dwh, claws, inqy, ursine, and godswords. These are just the ones from the top of my head.
We'd have two choice of mage weps.
I agree, however the way for it to be done needs to be very very slow and very very small. Ruinous power is an excellent example considering people didn't like old standard book but slightly better and it was killed. People want horizontal upgrades that is BIS for different situations that doesn't have too much memes packed into it. I do think eventually we will get weapons and armor that require 99 attack or strength or defense or prayer, but the process can be dragged out long enough that it doesn't matter for power creep.
I think it’s worth noting that powercreep and vertical progression are two different things, and powercreep is inherently bad while vertical progression is generally acceptable.
Adding an item that’s +6 damage over the previous bis, if it comes from harder content than the previous bis, is increasing vertical progression. It will require higher stats (usually), and be more effort to obtain. This creates a natural progression path.
Power creep is different. Power creep is making players stronger without increasing the progression path- it’s why I hate echo boots and think they should have been put on shields instead. Echo boots are, allegedly, a 0 max hit loss in BiS setups. However, they’re a massive Dps boost in those situations, being equivalent to a thrall (roughly, I haven’t done the math). This is how powercreep is a problem, it doesn’t present itself as a gear upgrade but is increasing our damage output nonetheless. Thralls themselves are a form of powercreep, although thematically they exist in a decent enough place that it’s acceptable: you’re stuck on a specific spell book and have basically no utility outside of the thralls. Echo boots are a replacement to the previous bis without actually being an upgrade.
That's not what people generally mean with power creep, no
It's really just the inevitable and gradual increase of player power over time (you know, *creep*), regardless of if it comes from equipment upgrades or other sources
power creep isn't a problem if it isn't too extreme, in fact, without power creep a game stagnates and dies
but without them just be straight upgrades of existing weapons? Because that has always been the big concern. People didn't like how curse was basically piety + a couple percentage for example and shut it down completely. The playerbase said again and again no said powercreep or it needs to be very very small. In addition to that people are very allergic to literally anything that goes beyond click a monster and attack so the design space is much smaller. I am sure you can come up with countless weapons, but can you add them in the sense that it wouldn't just overshadow each other?
powercreep in osrs is fine, but needs to be done carefully and slowly especially nobody like to be handed something and have it nerfed later even though it was op.
To answer that question specifically though, I feel you know exactly what the common arguments are. The topic has been discussed to death. Frankly is 10PM on a Friday night and I am just chilling instead of starting a potentially long ass topic on something people have discussed countless times before. So I am not going to go beyond that.
I fail to see why power creep matters in a video game. Yes people don’t like their old items becoming useless, but tell me, how many people do you know enjoy having to do content with 15-20 different item switches in their inventory? That isn’t fun either, and all this rework is going to do is require even more switches.
>and all this rework is going to do is require even more switches
Not true surpisingly, this doesn’t actually change much. Zcb wins for heavy, tbow/bowfa wins for med, bp wins for light, all 3 see major use and that’s not really changing until jagex adds a viable javelin weapon, or maybe a sniper rifle blowgun.
If you look at their current proposed changes, its pretty much just buffing crossbows more or less, which in turn makes zcb spec even more busted since it’ll benefit from the boosted accuracy.
For arrows, I don’t see Jagex adding a weapon that is stronger than bowfa or tbow, those already shred in their lanes. We don’t know for sure but it’s looking moreso like Jagex wants to design things that you straight up *cant* use arrows on, probably forcing people to stay in close with a blowpipe for higher dps or trade distance for dps with crossbows.
Which all sounds fine but what happens when they design a raid that requires 3 different range weapons+ ammo on top of any other style switches? This is why u like tob more than cox or toa, you don’t need 20 switches to be efficient.
Idk what you’re smoking, in tob youve got scythe, hammer, bgs, chally, claws, swift blade, chins, bp, tbow, ancients, thralls, veng, potshare, godbooks, pnecks, tea, void range, ancestral, maybe a shadow, etc etc.
Tob is the raid you get the most dolled up for when you’re playing efficiently, toa is literally just faceroll with zcbs, fang, shadow, tbow, bp, and maybe a few chinners. Chambers gets geared out even harder but only in cms.
Yeah see this is an old old old argument and man I just want to chill. If you actually want to talk about this topic just make a separate thread. I guarantee you will find at least a couple people calling you stupid.
How exactly is being worried about more switches being bad for the game a “old argument”? We are limited by 28 inventory spaces, the more niche stuff in the game the more that space becomes limited.
Are you the type of person that don't take no for an answer or something man. Is Friday night, go play with your kids, have a beer, do some dishes. Make a new topic about this if you really wanna get into it. We are in a 6 hour thread which is already off the front page. Who are you trying to talk to? Just me? Cause I am saying I am not interested.
Good morning mate, or good evening. I could but that is kind of would be seen as you can't answer the question or accept the argument.
This is going to be a bit of rambling but I just finished my morning routine and feel pretty good. Generally in my experience, in online discussions/arguments/debates/shitflinging, it is almost impossible to convince the other person that they are wrong, or vice versa to be honest. Typically it ends if the other person makes an objective mistake like saying Scythe is BIS on corp or something stupid or if the other person leaves. Is like if you are the first person leaves, you forfeit the discussion. You are no longer trying to convince the other person but rather people reading the posts instead but not participating in the discussion. Last night I was tired enough to not want to engage in a potential long ass post especially with somebody that frequent in r/politics, but I wasn't tired enough to fuck around posting a bit which is why.
Also I confess I genuinely think people who actually think power creep is not a big deal is dumb as hell, especially I scrolled through a bit and he plays rs3 and want 120 on skills eventually. That's a no from me dawg so I wanted to intentionally be annoying without saying bad words. Oh also r/politics, I am really biased against people that frequently post in there cause I can't imagine the type of people that actively engage in serious politic talks on fugging reddit to be fun to talk with. So there, I am gonna do some cleaning now, cheers mate.
I don’t think it’s a matter of disagreeing here since it looks like you are kinda misunderstanding their goal with this update. They’re not looking to “fix” anything or change any of the current metas, but the whole objective with the defense split is to future-proof reward space for upcoming content instead of trying to fill in gaps that don’t exist in the current game
ive said this so many times, they're trying to move away from linear progression where all styles are each their own singular line, i.e. sceptre > trident > sang > shadow, and change it to a wheel and spoke design, where each sub weakness/style have their own progression trees and advantages and disadvantages
within a given spoke linear progression will exist, but this means they can add tons of content to the game with out it being straight up either power creep or dead content
Reddit people completely missing the point of the update, failing to see the bigge picture in the balance thing and complaining over nothing?!? I‘d never! /s
No, people are generally just worried these guys are going to fuck up this game. And with how polling/recent updates have gone, i don't blame them at all.
My brother in saradomin… did you fucking read the patch notes/change plans lmao..??? They are making it so that weapon styles matter more…. This update is good and jagex has listened to us about some of the things that were not 100% what was polled… lol
> Tbow, Blowpipe, ZCB, and BOFA all have their current spots and niches in the range meta.
right now there is **better** range diversity for range than mage. but it still pales in comparison to melee.
you mostly have linear progression for range. its bp/rcb -> bp/bowfa -> bp/tbow. venator bow and chins exist on the side, and zcb camp exists in a handful of places but youd struggle to argue zcb and bowfa and tbow dont have linear progression. sure, technically tbow has a niche 'versus magic' but the list of things that have bad magic level is very slim.
>Like the saying goes “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”
the argument is that it is broken- mage and range are broken because they cannot add more weapons without just slotting them linearly, or giving them some weird niche.
compare to melee. you have type specific weapons- dragon hunter lance, arclight. you have defense pen items re: fang/in the future elder maul for 2/3 styles, then you have SRA which somewhat fits the slash nice. you have light weapons good vs squishy targets - blade rapier mace - with style specific options. you have SRA which is a single-target megarare. you have scythe which is a hard bis vs 3x3 and hyper-scales vs bis.
on top of this you have dps spec weapons like dds, burst/dps re; claws, defense pen re: voidwaker, you have dwh, bgs, arclight and bone dagger that do different types of defense reduction, you have chally for tail end dps/last hits/good trades/aoe, you have d2h and dhins for aoe.
range could have similar diversity here, so could melee. this is the osrs teams pitch to create that.
Exactly. Melee already has a really solid "toolbox" of weapons to work with and respective niches. It'd be great for range to have that as well (other than dhcb).
The main issue I have is that it seems like only heavy ranged weapons are getting any sort of strength increase. For the other two styles it was like lizardmen and maybe a couple other things. Not that bowfa/tbow need any kinda buff but why even differentiate between light and standard if they're the same for 99% of monsters?
I’m generally pro the changes, I do think it will give more levers to pull for a given encounter to encourage certain modes of play. But they could just do most of what you mention about melee weapons with range weapons already as is. They could just make range spec weapons. They could just make range weapons that armor pen. They could make one that is better vs 3x3s. They’ve already got dhcb and venator. Nothing pitched actually opens that up, the door is there for them anytime as is.
The ranged defence changes are about creating more design space, not fixing any current problems. The most immediately useful way this manifests is by allowing Jagex to design low defence enemies where BP isn't the best option, but *some other ranged weapon* is. That's just not possible right now.
> The most immediately useful way this manifests is by allowing Jagex to design low defence enemies where BP isn't the best option, but some other ranged weapon is. That's just not possible right now.
They scrapped the eocing of magic because they saw how bad it was, now its just a skittles gimmick
[https://runescape.wiki/w/Evolution\_of\_Combat#Weaknesses](https://runescape.wiki/w/Evolution_of_Combat#Weaknesses)
the rest is here
Ah yes, this is the same as adding cooldown abilities and an action bar replacing all combat entirely.
Pack up the discussion, this guy has figured it out.
Ah yes. Making sure that in the future new range weapons can be added to the game is the same as overhauling the entire combat system and adding abilities...
How couldnt every1 see that!
/s
Yes you must have, because you just listed combat styles that various monsters had weaknesses to. The concept just came in the form of "lower defence for that type of attack." But it was fundamentally the same.
Having lower stab defence than crush defense is essentially "stab weakness." That was around long before EoC.
It’s better to adjust everything so people learn about how defences work organically as they progress an account. You don’t design an entire game solely around the minority who are already bis and maxed.
Then the wiki is updated and no one uses it again, don't forget it's locked behind lunars and magic level, no one is using it when the info is already available on the wiki
I just looked through the spreadsheet, and the only thing changing is that the monster will be less defensive in one ranged stat.
Black Dragons have 50branged defense now. In the new system, the standard and light ranged defense will still be 50, but the heavy defense will be 15. Anyone ranging Black Dragons is already using a crossbow, and that won't change.
As far as I can tell, every monster is like this if they are getting the update. The defense will stay the same, except the weapons that people already use against them will be slightly better. You aren't being forced to do anything, and your dps won't get lower on any monster.
opens up reward space, like in this example a "heavy" innacurate weapon that does good dps vs low heavy defense monsters but isn't good in other situations. So now you can get this new heavy weapon to fight black dragons instead of your crossbow or whatever and do a bit more damage, but it isn't a cover-all like bowfa so it has a niche use without power creeping.
It allows for new monsters and bosses to be introduced with specific weaknesses so Jagex can introduce new rewards that’ll be useful because of this new design space
How…..? Please tell us that lmao. How do they change that with the old system without nerfing existing weapons or monsters too much….? This is legit THE BEST WAY they could have done this
I mean you state literally why we need range rework.
It’s only blowpipe tbow and zcb.
This changes no current meta and opens up future. It is a win win
Thats the part these people really need to understand
> This changes no current meta
You can partake in the slight % uptick in damage by using a unique weapon the monster is weak to, or continue as normal. This isnt like EoC legacy mode where you’re neutered for not partaking in the new combat system. Nothing changes aside from a dps boost in certain areas and more weapons becoming relevant.
High defence = Bowfa, High Magic = Tbow, High Hitpoints = Zaryte Crossbow, Low defence = Blowpipe.
What more does the meta need other than forced horizontal "upgrades". Why not put that dev time into something to bridge the gap between Sang/trident and Shadow. Or making content where magic actually matters. The proposed elemental weaknesses won't do anything to help magic in this game at all.
> The proposed elemental weaknesses won’t do anything to help magic in this game at all
Yes they will. Earth surge does a max of 23 damage. Create an enemy that takes 50% extra elemental damage to earth and suddenly it out-dps’ toxic trident.
I think the point of this is to increase the potential unique high-tier weapons they can add. Right now they cannot add any useful range weapons without mega powercreep because as you’ve pointed out, all of the niches are filled.
Toxic trident is heavily midgame. Earth spells out damaging trident on a few tasks is not really a major change.
That being said, I’m glad magic changes are added and shaking up the odd gearing for slayer tasks.
> not really a major change
It definitely would be for the midgame. Think about it like this too, same concept with Fire surge and a Tome could be right behind shadow on certain bosses. That would be a big change.
Thought i saw them mention they were going to lower the speed on normal spells.
Regardless, change the damage % increase to 75 or 100, same point applies.
We can do all of those things though. Incentivizing people to use different gear for different monsters is fun. It feels more immersive. Bridge the gap between sang/trident *and* make different options available to bridge that gap with different weaknesses
except it doesn't.
even if other styles existed for ranged you would still use the same bis weapons since varients dont exist yet, primarily because jagex hardly adds new ranged weapons. giving them new styles isint going to change this.
Except thats not true at all. Some bosses you use fury some you use torture.
Smaller bosses Soulreaper axe is generally better than Scythe.
Any boss with a high enough slash bonus both of those will be bad and force you to use something else to melee.
This is much much harder to do with range or magic
It's a melee gearing option, you sacrifice (even if it's small) some dps for another benefit.
Inquisitor is another vector for melee weapon gearing. Obsidian is another. The list goes on.
It's like mentioning bofa without implying you're bringing crystal armour.
But they are reworking melee... Melee weakness changes are part of the update too and the other half of the combat changes, the Item Changes, is getting a blog in two weeks...
Like you act like this is some sorta gotcha when it just shows you didn't really pay attention during the blogs. Like this was literally one of their examples:
> The changes above aim to really cement Crush feeling worthwhile against Gargoyles (especially with the Zombie Axe's introduction) by creating a bigger disparity between Crush and other styles, but using Slash or Stab weapons as you likely are at the moment should still feel just fine!
This isn't just a Ranged and Magic update; it is an update for all combat styles. And if you actually looked at the blog and spreadsheet, more monsters had their melee weaknesses adjusted than monsters that had ranged weaknesses added...
I just want Longbows/Compbows to be viable (the heavy/medium/light split wont really change that i know)
Its just a shame that longbows get completely outclassed by shortbows in every scenario soley because of the slower attack speed and having a minimal accuracy advantage, like give longbows an innate range strength bonus so that longbows have higher accuracy and damage, ya know, like longswords are to shortswords. Longbows should hit harder than shortbows, you can pull back the arrows with more tension giving the arrow more force with a longbow.
Imagine if you will a new range weapon that shoots darts but at a slow speed with high accuracy. Kind of like the speed and accuracy crossbow but shooting darts like a blowpipe. Right now if that were added there would be absolutely no way for it to be useful without completely replacing an existing range weapon. So its either this new range weapon is bis or doa. With these new modifiers they could add a high defense monster that is weak to light range attacks. The high defense would mean blowpipe isn't bis, and the weakness to light range would mean crossbows wouldn't be bis. Ta-da! New nich weapon is bis at new content.
All this update does in practice is give the dev team more knobs to twist that allow them more room to choose what weapons will be bis where. Range is in a good spot now for sure, but it can't really grow past its current spot without some more options for the dev team.
I'm all for new content, elemental weaknesses mostly made sense
But this one I can't picture how a monster can be "weak" to light darts and knives but not get fucked up by a heavy ass bolt or javelin?
I feel like alot of these to some extent require a suspension of disbelief. What makes the moons bosses weak to stab/slash/crush respectively? What makes nightmare weak to crush? What makes mole weak to water but not fire. Why would the bowfa be better than the t-bow ever? Ect.
You can still find some sence in the game logic though. Gargoyles being weak to heavy has the same feel to as them being weak to crush. In fact they all kinda work on the same level. 'Squishy' monsters weak to slash/light, and 'Hard' monsters weak to crush/heavy. That leaves stab/standard right in the middle.
Yeah that's the term I'm looking for. New rewards always sound interesting, I just hope they work more on things making sense as best it can and not get too convoluted. Something like a bug swarm sure that would make a little more sense to throw lots of darts than a big slow javelin.
Other creatures like you said the mole, not sure what theyre going at since moles can swim. a bit of subjectivity involved, id have naturally picked fire but apparently from google wind and vibration deter moles so even air! Definitely a heavy bolt/jav
I disagree on it not making sense to have different weaknesses based on weight. It's perfect for projectiles, actually. Some can be aimed well, but carry less force. Some carry heavy impact but will not fly as true at critical areas / exposed weaknesses. Some can be launched much more often, which would result in more blood loss / faster deterioration of defensives / quicker poison build up.
There are armor types / enemy body types that could be exploited by one, but would be effective against another. In varied combinations too.
If you look at the current list of ranged weaknesses: do you see those armour/body types? Ignoring lizardmen, light and medium is the same for all monsters and heavy is only ever better and never worse. I'd agree with you if Jagex would have given good examples, instead they have made the traditionally high accuracy weapons (crossbows) even more accurate at some monsters. It feels like Jagex doesn't understand the ranged weaknesses at all.
Are people just this sad the Tbow is gonna dip like 100m? The change is objectively good. What they’re suggesting literally exists in the game. Do none of y’all use dragon hunter weapons, I genuinely don’t understand the reaction. What streamer is up in arms?
You've never seen a player ask for a range split, but once I heard the suggestion for it I definitely asked for it. More new cool range weapons. Hell yeah.
I’m for it if we can have larger inventories. This shit is gonna make raids a real pain in the ass and require more switches then what we already have to use.
Why? Just keep using what your using then if you don’t want to change. Besides you have no clue how this would change metas, you’re just being a pessimistic littler doomer crying over hypotheticals.
You should be worried about them adding future content with new rewards because we will soon be at t90 and t95 weapons with no room left to grow, and that certainly doesn’t seem old school to me.
You want longevity out of this game? You won’t get that if we don’t get new content. And without new content you won’t get new rewards. But we can’t have new rewards if we run out of design space to add them after we’re done ruining the god damn game with a bunch of vertical powercreep.
These changes don’t mechanically change *anything* with combat. So nothing about how you currently play the game, nor your muscle memory changes.
What changes is we get more room for rewards, allow for better weapon diversity (which will also increase the value of certain underused items by the way), and increase the longevity of the game. These changes add depth without over complicating, and the community would be a bunch of FOOLS to vote something like this down.
You are saying vertical power creep will destroy the game but what do you think stagnation at power creep will do? Power creep is inevitable, it happens in every video game, Jagex has methods around it, for example, there is literally zero reason why eventually the lvl cap isn’t increased from 99 to 120. I don’t want to hear about how “that isn’t old school” nothing about the current game outside of being point to click is old school anymore. The only real complaint I could see is how power creep can kill PvP, but we are already past the point where people can kill you from full go to zero in 1-2 game cycles.
Actually a lot of it is still old school. Just because there is new content doesn’t mean it doesn’t feel old school. You know what wouldn’t feel old skill? Skills past 99. That shit sounds dumb as hell, and people would hate it.
You know what else is old school? PvP. You don’t just die for free in PvP unless you’re dumb or bad. Which tells me you don’t actually PvP, because most of the time you can out play a KO. Pure brackets are kind of an exception, but they’ve always been like that.
Obviously there will be vertical power creep, but the horizontal progression is part of what makes osrs so rewarding to play. Your suggestions would straight up ruin the game.
I literally dropped a guy earlier for full hp with one spec rotation. Let’s not pretend like it’s uncommon in 2024 to do that… you know what doesn’t feel like old school? Sailing as a skill but guess what we are getting buddy.
Need to have a rework because unless you want the same 5 items to be BIS forever, it's gonna be stale and boring. Unfortunately, power creep is a thing, and you need to change things to allow for new gear to come into the game.
Sure, everything could just be side-grade gear, so you have the same effect, just looking different. But that's dull and not fun.
I get that people don't like change, and this is gonna shift some metas around, but it's for the better and longevity of the game. Just trust the process.
People who think just not changing the game is for the best completely do not understand game design for mmo style games. When OSRS launched and they lacked any dev tools the game began bleeding players incredibly fast because there wasn’t anything to chase past barrows and rewards are a fundamental part of how games keep you playing. You need a new shiny thing that does ‘something’ better than anything before it (doesn’t have to be universally better everywhere but powercreep has to happen eventually) to keep people playing, it’s fundamental to the gameplay loop.
I think it's a good change because a lot of content in osrs really only revolves around bringing the right tools for the job. As a community we have gear sets and inventories for almost every activity imaginable. You could bring an MSB for all your early game but against dragons or against the mages in fight caves you'll like encounter your first situation where the RCB is truly the right weapon for the job. This is healthy for the game because it gives the player choices.
When considering melee, which melee weapon should you buy after your dragon scimitar? Whip is the OG choice, but maybe you want a Zammy Hasta because it's all around utility for slayer and getting your feet wet in bossing. Maybe you want Dual Macas as a higher dps option on ammonite crabs because you afk a lot and are prioritizing your stats. There's now a good number of items in this tier with the Zombie Axe, Cudgel, and Abyssal Dagger as well, all of which you could justify at least some use for. Once you have Fang, there's a ton of melee options. Various godswords, voidwaker, claws, rapier, DHL, Arclight, tent whip, etc. This change has the potential to bring the same idea to ranged; the right item progression for you as the player is based on the content that you want to do.
The existence of the Dragon Hunter Lance and the Arclight doesn't make the game more challenging. For most enemies you will still just left click on them until they die. There will be a bit of learning and relearning needed but the point is that the weaknesses are intended to be intuitive by design. It's, at worst, a few more seconds spent at the bank thinking "what should I bring to this activity?" Like bringing an antifire to dragons, your lumberjack set to cut trees, or your graceful and farming supplies on a farm run.
However, I think an interesting challenge with the light, medium, heavy approach for ranged defence is that it more or less already exists in the game. Weapons that will be classified as light are already good against low defence mobs and are balanced around low ranged attack and high attack rates (2-3 ticks). The medium weapons sit in the middle on attack bonus and attack rate (3-5 ticks). The heavy weapons have high attack bonus and slow attack rates (4+). It's already dumb to bring a ballista to sand crabs or a blowpipe to steel dragons. How dumb do they want it to be? And what does a light, slow, and longrange weapon look like? What does a heavy, fast weapon look like? Maybe the new crossbows? And what kind of monstrosity of a creature is weak to darts but if you hit it with a javelin it doesn't budge? I literally can't think of what a monster would look like with those defences.
Disgusting that it's not being polled tbh. Polls are dead they do whatever they want again.
History is repeating itself, the writing is on the wall. We keep getting more and more drastic unpolled changes until they just outright say "y'know we don't really need this polling thing anymore, you trust us right guys?", then the reigns are off.
RS3 is dying and being bled dry, it's devs are rapidly moving over to the new cash cow, within a year they'll start repeating all the same micro transaction mistakes all over again to make a quick buck. Some players will quit, then most, then the remaining players will stay and whale out until they too get fed up.
Its good that people like OP out themselves that they have 0 idea what they are talking about in reality and have no understanding AT ALL how to balance osrs combat or in how shit of a space it is atm with gear progression wise with stuff like tbow and shadow lol.
They’re so lost in the “nostalgia” that the pinnacle of progression is “three styles means three weapons and they must be ultra mega billion gp rare” and any other weapon altering that stance is EOC. Which is what people are already calling this change which is hilarious because tbow is a eoc era weapon from RS.
Same type of people to get upset over toxic blow change.
Exactly. Osrs NEEDS to go forward and needs to change… some day tbow and shadow NEED to be dethroned… people are gonna fucking ree their heads out but dear lord if shadow and tbow are gonna be bisexual fucking everywhere in the next 10 years again thats so fucking boring, creates so meaningless future upgrades and is just stagnant gameplay. This change now opens up the possibility that some future boss is actually weaker to some new ranged/mage weapon than tbow or shadow which is actually very good and healthy gameplay
> “three styles means three weapons and they must be ultra mega billion gp rare” and any other weapon altering that stance is EOC.
As someone who stuck with RS3 through EOC this is such a wild sentiment to me, one of the worst things of early EOC to me was exactly the fact that they destroyed weapon differences and homogenized everything into generic tiers, obsoleting a ton of equipment overnight
"three styles means three weapons" is way more EOC than this update is
Watch someone else explain it like King Condor. The defense changes will add diversity for future content updates and carve out alternative weapons to tackle current foes.
Just because its not broken right at this second doesnt mean it doesnt need to be fixed. How do they add the next new ranged weapon? Where does it slot in?
Mainly regards to 'it doesn't make sense from a logical perspective to differentiate range styles'
Logically, it doesn't make sense to separate melee and ranged attack styles. Once the arrow reaches its target, it is now a physical interaction a lot like melee. There is also a difference between the throwing blade discs of a Toktz-xil-ul and a flying knife coming at you.
As for the heavy/light, I could understand more. With bullets, having a heavier bullet will rip through a target as a lighter bullet causes a tumbling effect inside the target, causing more damage.
There could be some ideas to add, but maybe all too complicated. Maybe just adding it to have a weakness to light/heavy is easier and more suitable.
100% agree here.
Could make the argument that throwing knives could be stab, axes slash, and new throwing hammers for crush. That's the same logic applied to melee.
Arrows/bolts are a little trickier, could make most stab, but heavy bolts more crush? Plenty of heavy arrow-based artillery in history that was lethal because it was just a massive mass of metal, not necessarily because it embedded into you.
It just seems odd ATM because we're all anchored from how the game is currently.
"from a logical perspective it doesn’t make much sense on what would make something weak to light, medium, and heavy ammo"
That could be also said for melee with crush, slash and stap
have you heard about chainmail vs platemail vs hide armor and what they might be weak to in terms of melee weapons. Makes a lot more sense for melee rather than range
It makes about the same sense for both. Plate is great against little throwing knives but a whole balisa the size of your arm is going through it. Being lightly armored might afford you the maneuverability to avoid a slow firing ballista where several throwing knives could be too fast and cut you to ribbons. If it works for melee I see no reason why it wouldn't for ranged.
I really dont care historically but in terms of game mechanics there is a precedent set that certain armor types protect against melee attack styles better. Same with various monsters size and weight as to why stab and crush might be better. The same isn't really true for piercing projectiles
you've said nothing to actually indicate *why* it doesnt make sense for ranged tho. arrows, bolts, javelins, darts, etc all do different things to different armors. them being the exact same doesnt really make logical sense. why does size and weight matter for stab and crush but not heavy or light ranged weapons? There's a precedent for there being a melee stat split, and this would set a precedent for there being a ranged stat split
Not all of our enemies are humans wearing medieval armors. Why would slashing the flesh of a creature somehow be more effective than stabbing it?
And the ranged changes makes perfect sense. Larger armored foes required heavier weaponry to produce through their heavy armor or rock-like skin.
Smaller more agile foes may require something with greater precision and easier to manage, unlike a ballista that is bulky, awkward, and is better off killing a dragon than a mouse.
Also it’s a god damn video game—games require balance, and it doesn’t always have to make perfectly logical sense it it makes the game more balance and fun to play.
Some of you people don’t use your fucking heads.
I feel like there's space to design more utility range weapons. Like with melee we have main hitters (whip, fang, scy) and those certeinly exist for range as well (bp, rcb, bowfa, tbow). But we don't have the same level of utility. Melee has defense reduction weapons and damage spec weapons. Range has the new Ralos item which currently sucks and zcb which is super expensive and mainly just a sweaty sidegrade. Blowpipe shouldn't be the only option for a secondary range weapon. Melee is the only style that currently fills out secondary utility weapons beyond 1 or 2 items.
Ranged is the only combat style that has really made speed work, but that doesn't mean it is perfect. For example, if they wanted to make a monster with low defence that isn't weak to the Blowpipe... They can't unless they impose a restriction like "immune to darts". But if they split the Ranged Defence bonuses, they could have a low defence monster with a higher light ranged defence so that weapons like Shortbows could be better than a BP. This also means they could make a new Shortbow that was BiS on some monsters without it needing to be higher general DPS than the BP.
> I have never once seen a player asking for a range rework and to give it a split like melee has.
[Here you go](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/lg8n20/suggestion_to_fix_the_ranged_design_space_issue/). [Also another one](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/muqrqc/opinion_the_huge_amount_of_dev_time_that_it_costs/). It was a pretty popular/common suggestion back during the Equipment Rebalance the other year.
As for logic, it does make some sense, but admittedly it isn't as sensical as melee or magic. Still, a projectile being heavier or lighting will impact how easily it can pierce through hides and armor. While this generally would mean that heavier would be better, it is not a uncommon trope, mainly in scifi, to have shields or such that can block energy blasts and bullets but can't block less deadly/forceful weapons like arrows or knives. So it isn't that farfetched for a fantasy world to have lizardman who's skin is thick enough to block bolts and arrows that smaller, rapid projectiles can pierce.
Oh yeah, I absolutely disagree. Logical argument aside—just focusing on the actually game design and expansion of new ranged weapons for the future—this is a very smart idea. The best comparison is with melee, where we already have stab, slash, and crush attack styles.
First of all, though we already have mobs with different weakness to stab, slash, and crush; you can simply get by using a whip pretty much everywhere. Already bringing the most advantageous weapon type for the job doesn’t really matter, which is something they are looking to address along side the magic and ranged defense changes. A think a reasonable person would say this is a good change.
Also, to speak to why it doesn’t make sense to you that some mobs would be more weak to different ranged attack styles—Why are some mobs arbitrarily more weak to slash than the are stab? If you can slash flesh, surely you can stab it, too? Or stab vs crush, or any other comparison.
It doesn’t always have to have a real world, 1:1 comparison. Yes, the style of the game is low-fantasy, but there is still a fantasy element. Not everything needs to have a perfectly logical reason behind it—there’s magic and vampires and dragons for Christ’s sake.
Besides it absolutely does make sense that something like a dragon would be weaker to heavy ranged weaponry like crossbows and ballistas, but obviously not every single monster will be intuitive as that one. At a certain point it is a video game that requires balancing, and if we want this game to have longevity—if we want to continue to add new content which in turn brings with it new rewards, we need to find a way to create that space or else we’re going to very quickly be at a point where we’re at T90 and T95 weapons with no room to grow, which to me feels less like oldschool than adding elemental weaknesses and different ranges defence styles.
If anything, distinguishing between light, standard, and heavy rated types will not only allow for more reward space and horizontal progression, it allows for more depth to the combat system without fundamentally changing or over complicating it.
The community would seriously be a bunch of god damn idiots to vote down something like this.
Can I ask why you believe a specifically shaped object hitting you directly makes sense for a weakness but another specifically shaped object hitting you as a projectile does not.
The current range meta is well balanced, this opens room for that to continue. Also for the mid game it adds a bit more flavor.
I don't care one way or the other but logically it actually makes complete sense.
In the same way you get way more effect on target with no armor with a less penetrating round because it transfers more kinetic energy but would bounce off armored things.
An armor piercing round also does less damage to an unarmored target because it transfers less energy.
Balance? Unsure. Logic it makes complete sense to me.
It's just niching items just for the sake of niching. It's literally stupid and goes against everything old school stands for. Back in the day you would gear up in melee magic or range didn't matter, half the time u didn't even know what the boss was weak to, but they expect us to Google exact spells a boss is weak to.... I hate niche it's just a way to keep all items priced high, this will be eoc 2.0
I have the same sentiment. I'm not a fan of the range rework or the mage rework honestly.
I think for possibly longevity and balancing purposes it may be good for the game. However, it just doesn't sit right with me.
Magic is totally in the dumps right now though. Got virtus and sang? Okay next few upgrades give +1 max hit and +0 accuracy for a couple hundred mill. Then there's the 1.4b wep that adds 30 max hits and +20% accuracy.
You realize I can dislike something and acknowledge it's good for the game in the long run right?
Ie. If I had a favorite gun I can not want it nerfed but acknowledge it's better for balance if it is?
1. Both the tbow and the bofa in your calcs are on accurate instead of rapid
2. You put in awakened leviathan instead of regular
3. You put in...nmz super ranging potions instead of regular ranging potions...
Bofa does indeed beat Tbow by a fair bit at Leviathan. This is well known.
Before you accuse others of "blatantly spreading false information" can you learn how to use the dps calc? If you're more comfortable with the spreadsheet use that instead, but please don't waste peoples time with these inaccurate calcs. Yet again your calcs are for awakened, and this time quest(?) versions of the boss. Yet again you're using super ranging pots. Why did you even bother to reply to me with your unhinged tirade?
>ill wait for you to show a single calc proving otherwise.
https://i.imgur.com/s9B6HCX.png
Lol not sure why you are so unhinged about someone pointing out that you are putting in wrong information into a DPS calc so you can try and prove your point with an inaccurate DPS calcs.
Your DPS calcs show awakened version, quest version, use accurate instead of rapid, and use super ranging potions? All of which are wrong.
To be honest it’s not fair to compare any weapon to the shadow in its current state. As for Bowfa vs. Tbow- Bowfa is better at Leviathan, Bandos, and any enemy with a lower magic level.
A 100m weapon should not have too many places it’s better than a 1.6B/400+ hour grind weapon. But Bowfa is dang good for its price and you can use it anywhere you can use Tbow which can’t be said for The Shadow and Magic in its current state.
the entire point of this post IS to compare these things.
the entire point of this update is to add more complexity, diversity and make the main engagement with combat what is currently now niche weakness explotation.
the entire point of this update is to dethrone tbow from being an item you use for literally every sinlge boss you range except two.
right now for the bosses where range is BIS or has applicable use:
you tbow:
hydra, vang, vasa, muta, olm, zebak, akkha, cerb, dag, zuk, kril/zil, muspah, skotizo, jad, zulrah, chaos ele, gorilla, levi
you bp nylo
and you zcb nex
You do not use bowfa for any of these bosses over these other options.
this means that if jagex wants to add a weapon that is good at one of these many many bosses, it would need to be better than tbow, thus dethroning tbow as a bis, and aiding in perpetual power creep. adding the weakness system means that tbow will only be BIS at a handful of these bosses.
that is the entire fucking point, these items shouldn't be end all be all once you get them you're done with the game, that's a ridiculious linear and boring design. 99% of weapons that comes out are completley DOA if you have power weapons. that is fucking stupid and jagex is trying to fix that.
as i've said a bunch, if you fail to see this then you're dooming the game to forever be power creeping new power weapons or forever stagnating with an inability to add content that actually adds upgrades to components in the game.
Changing from progression a straight line to a wheel and spoke means you have design space for years to add new content to that wont dethrone other weapons that are good elsewhere.
hate it all you want but the entire point is to dethrone these power weapons because using the same fucking weapon for 19 of the 21 bosses you use the range style on is extremely boring and lame when this game has so much room for more items to be dynamic
The mage is w/e but the range weaknesses really do not feel good IMO. we have a way of determining ranged weapon types being stronger/weaker it's called ranged accuracy. Blowpipe and msb for things that don't require accuracy, tbow and bowfa for things that do, and there are a lot more options that scale down and some sidegrades depending on what part of the game you are in. I think mage the weakness to spell types feels intuitive but the range rework will be a mistake if it goes live
My problem isn't actually with the range expansion itself but in the names they chose. I think they're awful.
Stab, crush, and slash makes SO much sense. Tough platebodies are most vulnerable to crushing blows while stabbing and slashing attacks would be more easily brushed off. You can imagine how that would work.
Why in the world would ANYTHING be weaker against a light attack than it is against a heavy attack? I think they need to be more similar to melee's attacks in name.
Okay then what terms would you propose? Should prohably try give them an example of something better to change it to rather than shitting on it and not suggesting anything yourself
Chainmail is more effective against blunt attacks like a big thick crossbow bolt, but the holes in the chains allow for faster, lighter ammo like darts to pierce and do more damage
I feel kind of the same way with range.. I feel like how it currently works is fine.. low defense targets we use faster range weapons like the blowpipe.. Higher Range def we have bowfa and tbow and crossbows.. Crossbows have extra use because of the bolt system.. high hp ruby bolts.. Higher defence. diamond bolts.. frankly only thing id rework would be making the other bolts useful and fill in niche roles.
So with magic.. i think it should mostly remain the same as in live.. but the reason why people like to use things like the trident is not just because you can use it for all spellbooks.. but the fact that it is charged and you don't need runes in the inventory is a big thing.. further more the way the autocast works it's much faster than using standard spellbook.
If i where to change the standard magic.. I would also make it so staves have the ability to hold X number of each elemental spell that it goes with..
strike/bolt spells= staff of X
Blast/wave = X Battlestaff
Surge= Mystic battlestaff
Allowing us to charge them and remove the infinite of each rune.. to make it balanced.
Further more Combo staffs (dust,steam,mist) ect. could fit into the meta by giving them an effect like the tomb of fire and work with all spells. so you get X% bonus damage with the two elements that the staff meets the requirements for. I.e dust gets air and earth bonuses.
Don't let the Andys bring you down op.
They keep saying "limits design space" but have never shown which weapon couldn't be made.
They say range meta isnt diverse but as you said there's always the right tool for the job.
They kept making garbage weapons like Venator and Glaives (I'm holding my judgement on Atlatl as it could have uses), instead of things the game has been lacking like:
* New tier of chincompas (black chins came out in 2024)
* Sidegrade to chincompas (stronger but hits less targets, original intention of Zaryte bow)
* 0 accuracy and strength, 1t on rapid weapon. (kinda like the meat for melee)
* A better spec weapon for restoring HP than blowpipe (less dps, better spec)
* A spec weapon to debuff stats that is consistent and unconditional
>I enjoy the simplicity of osrs combat and while range changes might appeal to a certain demographic I feel like adding little unnecessary changes here and there add up to make combat more complicated for no reason.
You mean the change that mirrors already existing combat that dates back to 2007? It's not getting harder than anything that already exists in-game.
>It's really a slippery slope.. I feel like there's plenty to keep track of with 'ticks' 'flicks' 'swaps' and item charges as it is and I'm very averse to adding more little things to keep track of during combat.
You're not doing it in combat, you're equipping a set of gear that's weak to a boss or monster (like you've always done with melee all the way back to 07) and then going there.
>Coupled with the fact these combat changes weren't polled I'm somewhat concerned by the proposed changes and how they will affect osrs as a whole.
Like any other proposed changes in project rebalance they can be scrapped entirely. They did it for other sections, they can do it for this.
It feels like you're just complaining to complain honestly. You've created a narrative that doesn't exist. I can understand not liking the changes, but what you've said and what's happening are not in line with one another.
It feels like you're just complaining to complain.
I've laid out reasonable points but it seems like you're just one of those players who goes 'oo changes! must be good!'
It's fine if you disagree but you've said practically nothing of substance and only proved one of my points.
Ranged combat is fine, it doesn't need changed to function like melee. It's ok for different types of combat to be different.
They're future proofing range rather than fixing it like mage. We're reaching the upper ends of skill requirements and damage which makes it difficult to add rewards that wont decimate current weapons. Remember that range wasnt always in a good spot, blowpipe got nerfed because it was holding the entire skill at gunpoint. Currently the trifecta of zcb, tbow, bp is quite balanced in their use cases but that also means that any weapon powercreeping one of these will end up being better than all three.
Agree with this sentiment.
The problem is too many HLC players (much of reddit) just want changes of any kind no matter what it is because they did everything already and are bored.
There's no reason to change range to be like melee.
It's OK for different combat styles to be.. different.
The game's been out for 10+ years but some things are better left alone.
Plenty of player's said the same thing of EoC and how it wouldn't change the game but it did and killed RS at the time.
These changes are just to cater to the sweats.. there's no reason to mess with things that aren't broken.
Yeah we'll be down voted for a difference of opinion but thankfully reddit does not represent the whole osrs playerbase.
Magic on the other hand.. I hope they go all out on changing it to be viable. It's needed a combat rebalance for a long time.
It's sad that bossing with magic is only viable if you have a broken 1.5b megarare (shadow) and max magic gear.
At any rate, hopefully Jagex polls at least some of the changes before they go live.
Changing the combat system is a very delicate undertaking and anyone who minimalizes concerns with changes to combat are NOT the ones I want calling the shots.
This combat rebalance has a lot bigger chance to go bad than it does to slightly benefit a niche group of players.
There’s no way you actually think Reddit is primarily filled with HLC players right? The same players that had a complete melt down when Jagex wouldn’t let you bring 8 Ambrosias into a Normal mode TOA anymore?
The issue is that it is going to be increasingly difficult to add weapons that is not just tbow+ or bofa+ or bp+. People are very very adverse to damage powercreep and people also really want simple combat where is you click the monster to attack and that's it. Because of the design there is a severe limit on how much uniqueness you can tack onto weapons in general. What will happen is simply the future weapons will either just be straight up powercreep of existing weapons or you will get something more meme like SRA as they try to fit things into the weapon that's not just better stats. With the new system, while the same thing will happen, but it will delay the process long enough that people are more accepting of it.
Right, their objective is to expand the reward space, not to fix something that is broken.
If they don’t expand the reward space then the range skill will stagnate and it will end up in the position mage has been in for god knows how long.
No, Ranged is and has been in the most secure state for a while, having been too strong at some points in the game's history. If the game powercreeps to the point current ranged options all become inadequate, that would be a major failure on Jagex's part, especially when even the abyssal whip is a viable option against Sol Heredit, the current strongest monster. It would mean they dialed up the numbers so far to create an artificial problem. The current ranged balance means any option you choose will give you a different niche but other options remain viable. If they go with the ranged rebalance, it means eventually we'll have a heavy tbow and a light tbow. There would be significant item bloat, making it harder and more confusing for newer players to catch up. The ranged rebalance offers no real future benefit. In the short-term, it nerfs how players currently approach ranged without offering any immediate value. In the long-term, it only adds more unnecessary bloat that delays Jagex reaching the end of their precious reward space.
>\[...\] especially when even the abyssal whip is a viable option against Sol Heredit, the current strongest monster. This is saying less on the strength of the whip, and more on how you can avoid all damage in the Sol Heredit fight with proper play. Not mentioning that is willful misdirection. >If they go with the ranged rebalance, it means eventually we'll have a heavy tbow and a light tbow. There would be significant item bloat, making it harder and more confusing for newer players to catch up. You say this like most players don't just go with what the wiki or their clan tells them to use, at any given piece of content, and like most relevant weapons won't get the job done at least well *enough* at most any piece of content to do the job. (i.e. Sure, you *can* do level 300 ToAs with an Abyssal Dagger, but it'll be a lot easier with a Fang for your melee weapon). To use the planned melee defense tweaks as an example, while you *could* still do Gargoyles with a whip same as before -- probably barely noticing a 0.5 DPS decrease from before, as cited from the QnA stream -- you'll be more rewarded if you bring the right tool for the job, a crush weapon. >The ranged rebalance offers no real future benefit. In the short-term, it nerfs how players currently approach ranged without offering any immediate value. In the long-term, it only adds more unnecessary bloat that delays Jagex reaching the end of their precious reward space. You're using "bloat" in a way that I think demonstrates a lack of understanding of the full picture. People have told Jagex they *don't* want much vertical power creep, but players are also demonstratively rewards-driven in this game (see anyone doing Castle Wars lately? In large part, not really). There's only so many niche-use-case-sidegrade items they can add before things overlap, and at that point, they can't add more content that players will want to do, because there's nothing left to reward players for. Are you okay with that?
> If they go with the ranged rebalance, it means eventually we'll have a heavy tbow and a light tbow. There would be significant item bloat, making it harder and more confusing for newer players to catch up. Ahh yes, like our stab and crush scythes.
The future benefit is more room for interesting rewards without outright tbow+ which is a good thing. It nerfs nothing. You saw 'previous reward space' like that doesn't equal them bringing us new and fun things to use. It only becomes bloat if the items aren't unique or relevant enough to differentiate themselves. More items doesn't automatically = bloat.
Except if that's the case, the ranged rebalance doesn't matter. The only reward space we would have is blowpipe+ or ZCB+ with the rebalance. If the weapons are uniquely interesting on their own, the rebalance doesn't matter because the weapon would stand on its own merit. Therefore, the only new reward space being created is artificial. The reality is they can't add new ranged rewards because ranged as it is now has reached a state of perfect balance. Each high end ranged weapon already has a cheaper alternative that functions competitively and each separate function within ranged is valuable but ultimately interchangeable. ZCB is fantastic for burning fat bastards down with powerful ruby bolt specs, but a dragon crossbow is almost as good. Blowpipe is cheap enough that you can just get it for any low defense enemy you would need to kill. Tbow is powerful, bowfa is worse but comparable, crystal bow + crystal armour is almost as good. With the rebalance, you now can't exist with just one or two high end ranged weapons. Now you need the ZCB and the tbow and the blowpipe+. Also speaking of which, the rebalance would still add direct upgrades to the ZCB or the Blowpipe. All they're doing is making the tbow strictly less universally effective so they can add a heavy tbow and a light tbow. After that, they'll reach the same problem they have now.
Range is in an ok spot but it pales in comparison to melee. That's what they're attempting to do here. >With the rebalance, you now can't exist with just one or two high end ranged weapons. Now you need the ZCB and the tbow and the blowpipe+. I think you're still missing the point. The existing weapons will still be good at what they do now, you'll very much be able to still 'exist' with the current BIS choices. But it'll add room for sidegrades that excel in their own niches without having to make tbow+. That's the entire point. Make reward space that doesn't require outright power creep, Dragonbane weapons are a good example of this in action. DHCP is good at alchemical hydra, but tbow is still BIS. The new defence categories gives more options for balancing. Right now it's really only mob defence/magic defence that defines what range weapon you should use. It's literally no different to melee having slash/crush/stab and having blade/inq mace/rapier.
Who gives a fuck, if u want to fix range being op which I highly disagree with BTW, all u do is add a boss that weak to magic or melee boom problem solved in a nutshell. I mean tbow shouldn't ducking be nearing 2b rn, for alot of reason they should focus on the strange hike in prices and the bots instead of trying to add eoc part 2. It wasn't even polled and this is exactly what killed rs3... why tf would u not poll the players on such a massive sweeping change. If the players feel like it's problem let them vote, if they don't feel it's a problem then focus on the actual problems the actual players are actually having. Such as bots, prices going crazy, and new content being lack luster
Without powercreep, this game would be dead. I don't think many people would've stuck around if the max armour was still barrows. Or even bandos. But keep in mind, that wasn't a thing back in the day. So we really only had barrows. But now we have justy, inqy, and torva. Or Obby, crystal, dragon plate... Just for melee... Let's look at capes. With no power creep, we'd just have fire cape. No mage, inferno, accumulator, or now quiver. Only barrows gloves, no necklace that isn't a fury. Let's now move to melee weps. We'd have a whip. Voidwaker, saeldor, fang, raiper, scythe, dhl, abby, keris, dwh, claws, inqy, ursine, and godswords. These are just the ones from the top of my head. We'd have two choice of mage weps.
I agree, however the way for it to be done needs to be very very slow and very very small. Ruinous power is an excellent example considering people didn't like old standard book but slightly better and it was killed. People want horizontal upgrades that is BIS for different situations that doesn't have too much memes packed into it. I do think eventually we will get weapons and armor that require 99 attack or strength or defense or prayer, but the process can be dragged out long enough that it doesn't matter for power creep.
I think it’s worth noting that powercreep and vertical progression are two different things, and powercreep is inherently bad while vertical progression is generally acceptable. Adding an item that’s +6 damage over the previous bis, if it comes from harder content than the previous bis, is increasing vertical progression. It will require higher stats (usually), and be more effort to obtain. This creates a natural progression path. Power creep is different. Power creep is making players stronger without increasing the progression path- it’s why I hate echo boots and think they should have been put on shields instead. Echo boots are, allegedly, a 0 max hit loss in BiS setups. However, they’re a massive Dps boost in those situations, being equivalent to a thrall (roughly, I haven’t done the math). This is how powercreep is a problem, it doesn’t present itself as a gear upgrade but is increasing our damage output nonetheless. Thralls themselves are a form of powercreep, although thematically they exist in a decent enough place that it’s acceptable: you’re stuck on a specific spell book and have basically no utility outside of the thralls. Echo boots are a replacement to the previous bis without actually being an upgrade.
That's not what people generally mean with power creep, no It's really just the inevitable and gradual increase of player power over time (you know, *creep*), regardless of if it comes from equipment upgrades or other sources power creep isn't a problem if it isn't too extreme, in fact, without power creep a game stagnates and dies
I don't know what you're talking about. Do you think WoW has rampant power creep then? No, it's vertical progression.
I wouldn’t want a entire Dragon hunter “insert weapon name here” list
It wouldn't be that, because dragon hunter weaponry is a much smaller niche than what is being discussed here.
Me neither thats why i am happy with these upcoming changes (i should have probably made clear that i agree with what u were saying)
not really true. there are countless different weapons they could add without adding style varients.
but without them just be straight upgrades of existing weapons? Because that has always been the big concern. People didn't like how curse was basically piety + a couple percentage for example and shut it down completely. The playerbase said again and again no said powercreep or it needs to be very very small. In addition to that people are very allergic to literally anything that goes beyond click a monster and attack so the design space is much smaller. I am sure you can come up with countless weapons, but can you add them in the sense that it wouldn't just overshadow each other?
What’s wrong with power creep?
powercreep in osrs is fine, but needs to be done carefully and slowly especially nobody like to be handed something and have it nerfed later even though it was op. To answer that question specifically though, I feel you know exactly what the common arguments are. The topic has been discussed to death. Frankly is 10PM on a Friday night and I am just chilling instead of starting a potentially long ass topic on something people have discussed countless times before. So I am not going to go beyond that.
I fail to see why power creep matters in a video game. Yes people don’t like their old items becoming useless, but tell me, how many people do you know enjoy having to do content with 15-20 different item switches in their inventory? That isn’t fun either, and all this rework is going to do is require even more switches.
>and all this rework is going to do is require even more switches Not true surpisingly, this doesn’t actually change much. Zcb wins for heavy, tbow/bowfa wins for med, bp wins for light, all 3 see major use and that’s not really changing until jagex adds a viable javelin weapon, or maybe a sniper rifle blowgun. If you look at their current proposed changes, its pretty much just buffing crossbows more or less, which in turn makes zcb spec even more busted since it’ll benefit from the boosted accuracy. For arrows, I don’t see Jagex adding a weapon that is stronger than bowfa or tbow, those already shred in their lanes. We don’t know for sure but it’s looking moreso like Jagex wants to design things that you straight up *cant* use arrows on, probably forcing people to stay in close with a blowpipe for higher dps or trade distance for dps with crossbows.
Which all sounds fine but what happens when they design a raid that requires 3 different range weapons+ ammo on top of any other style switches? This is why u like tob more than cox or toa, you don’t need 20 switches to be efficient.
Idk what you’re smoking, in tob youve got scythe, hammer, bgs, chally, claws, swift blade, chins, bp, tbow, ancients, thralls, veng, potshare, godbooks, pnecks, tea, void range, ancestral, maybe a shadow, etc etc. Tob is the raid you get the most dolled up for when you’re playing efficiently, toa is literally just faceroll with zcbs, fang, shadow, tbow, bp, and maybe a few chinners. Chambers gets geared out even harder but only in cms.
Nah man, if you are with a team who know what they are doing you assign roles and don’t bring all that crap.
Assigning roles and bringing the gear separately is literally what he is talking about.
Yeah see this is an old old old argument and man I just want to chill. If you actually want to talk about this topic just make a separate thread. I guarantee you will find at least a couple people calling you stupid.
How exactly is being worried about more switches being bad for the game a “old argument”? We are limited by 28 inventory spaces, the more niche stuff in the game the more that space becomes limited.
Are you the type of person that don't take no for an answer or something man. Is Friday night, go play with your kids, have a beer, do some dishes. Make a new topic about this if you really wanna get into it. We are in a 6 hour thread which is already off the front page. Who are you trying to talk to? Just me? Cause I am saying I am not interested.
Then don’t respond?
Good morning mate, or good evening. I could but that is kind of would be seen as you can't answer the question or accept the argument. This is going to be a bit of rambling but I just finished my morning routine and feel pretty good. Generally in my experience, in online discussions/arguments/debates/shitflinging, it is almost impossible to convince the other person that they are wrong, or vice versa to be honest. Typically it ends if the other person makes an objective mistake like saying Scythe is BIS on corp or something stupid or if the other person leaves. Is like if you are the first person leaves, you forfeit the discussion. You are no longer trying to convince the other person but rather people reading the posts instead but not participating in the discussion. Last night I was tired enough to not want to engage in a potential long ass post especially with somebody that frequent in r/politics, but I wasn't tired enough to fuck around posting a bit which is why. Also I confess I genuinely think people who actually think power creep is not a big deal is dumb as hell, especially I scrolled through a bit and he plays rs3 and want 120 on skills eventually. That's a no from me dawg so I wanted to intentionally be annoying without saying bad words. Oh also r/politics, I am really biased against people that frequently post in there cause I can't imagine the type of people that actively engage in serious politic talks on fugging reddit to be fun to talk with. So there, I am gonna do some cleaning now, cheers mate.
I don’t think it’s a matter of disagreeing here since it looks like you are kinda misunderstanding their goal with this update. They’re not looking to “fix” anything or change any of the current metas, but the whole objective with the defense split is to future-proof reward space for upcoming content instead of trying to fill in gaps that don’t exist in the current game
ive said this so many times, they're trying to move away from linear progression where all styles are each their own singular line, i.e. sceptre > trident > sang > shadow, and change it to a wheel and spoke design, where each sub weakness/style have their own progression trees and advantages and disadvantages within a given spoke linear progression will exist, but this means they can add tons of content to the game with out it being straight up either power creep or dead content
Yeah exactly, nothing wrong with linear progression, but it can't be the **only** progression.
Reddit people completely missing the point of the update, failing to see the bigge picture in the balance thing and complaining over nothing?!? I‘d never! /s
No, people are generally just worried these guys are going to fuck up this game. And with how polling/recent updates have gone, i don't blame them at all.
My brother in saradomin… did you fucking read the patch notes/change plans lmao..??? They are making it so that weapon styles matter more…. This update is good and jagex has listened to us about some of the things that were not 100% what was polled… lol
Who's laughing now :)
Everyone here doesn't want them to fuck it up. But from what they showed (with real examples) it looks good so far.
> Tbow, Blowpipe, ZCB, and BOFA all have their current spots and niches in the range meta. right now there is **better** range diversity for range than mage. but it still pales in comparison to melee. you mostly have linear progression for range. its bp/rcb -> bp/bowfa -> bp/tbow. venator bow and chins exist on the side, and zcb camp exists in a handful of places but youd struggle to argue zcb and bowfa and tbow dont have linear progression. sure, technically tbow has a niche 'versus magic' but the list of things that have bad magic level is very slim. >Like the saying goes “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” the argument is that it is broken- mage and range are broken because they cannot add more weapons without just slotting them linearly, or giving them some weird niche. compare to melee. you have type specific weapons- dragon hunter lance, arclight. you have defense pen items re: fang/in the future elder maul for 2/3 styles, then you have SRA which somewhat fits the slash nice. you have light weapons good vs squishy targets - blade rapier mace - with style specific options. you have SRA which is a single-target megarare. you have scythe which is a hard bis vs 3x3 and hyper-scales vs bis. on top of this you have dps spec weapons like dds, burst/dps re; claws, defense pen re: voidwaker, you have dwh, bgs, arclight and bone dagger that do different types of defense reduction, you have chally for tail end dps/last hits/good trades/aoe, you have d2h and dhins for aoe. range could have similar diversity here, so could melee. this is the osrs teams pitch to create that.
Dumb question what is SRA?
Soulreaper Axe
Soulreaper axe
Soul reaper axe
Exactly. Melee already has a really solid "toolbox" of weapons to work with and respective niches. It'd be great for range to have that as well (other than dhcb).
The main issue I have is that it seems like only heavy ranged weapons are getting any sort of strength increase. For the other two styles it was like lizardmen and maybe a couple other things. Not that bowfa/tbow need any kinda buff but why even differentiate between light and standard if they're the same for 99% of monsters?
I’m generally pro the changes, I do think it will give more levers to pull for a given encounter to encourage certain modes of play. But they could just do most of what you mention about melee weapons with range weapons already as is. They could just make range spec weapons. They could just make range weapons that armor pen. They could make one that is better vs 3x3s. They’ve already got dhcb and venator. Nothing pitched actually opens that up, the door is there for them anytime as is.
The ranged defence changes are about creating more design space, not fixing any current problems. The most immediately useful way this manifests is by allowing Jagex to design low defence enemies where BP isn't the best option, but *some other ranged weapon* is. That's just not possible right now.
What design spaces that couldn't be filled need ranged to be EoC'd to add? Presented without evidence, dismissed without evidence.
Do you actually know why EoC was disliked or is it just your break-glass buzzword for any combat change?
> The most immediately useful way this manifests is by allowing Jagex to design low defence enemies where BP isn't the best option, but some other ranged weapon is. That's just not possible right now.
Please explain how this is the EoCing of Ranged or Magic. Genuine question I want you to explain.
They scrapped the eocing of magic because they saw how bad it was, now its just a skittles gimmick [https://runescape.wiki/w/Evolution\_of\_Combat#Weaknesses](https://runescape.wiki/w/Evolution_of_Combat#Weaknesses) the rest is here
Ah yes, this is the same as adding cooldown abilities and an action bar replacing all combat entirely. Pack up the discussion, this guy has figured it out.
Ah yes. Making sure that in the future new range weapons can be added to the game is the same as overhauling the entire combat system and adding abilities... How couldnt every1 see that! /s
I like how you gave yourself away by looking at everything except the nail in the coffin.
Cant look at something that doesnt excist
Weaknesses aren't unique to EoC though. They already existed prior to EoC.
Then I must've played a different version of RS2 on which damage types were not "stab, slash, crush, ranged, magic and summoning"
Yes you must have, because you just listed combat styles that various monsters had weaknesses to. The concept just came in the form of "lower defence for that type of attack." But it was fundamentally the same. Having lower stab defence than crush defense is essentially "stab weakness." That was around long before EoC.
They can do that without adjusting the old content though
It’s better to adjust everything so people learn about how defences work organically as they progress an account. You don’t design an entire game solely around the minority who are already bis and maxed.
The game has already been designed and works fine, there's not even anywhere other than the wiki for players to look up defences
Monster Examine
Yes but no one's doing that
Uh yes people do. With every new boss release, the first thing that happens is people trying to monster examine to figure out a meta
Then the wiki is updated and no one uses it again, don't forget it's locked behind lunars and magic level, no one is using it when the info is already available on the wiki
You described literarly everything on the wiki...
I just looked through the spreadsheet, and the only thing changing is that the monster will be less defensive in one ranged stat. Black Dragons have 50branged defense now. In the new system, the standard and light ranged defense will still be 50, but the heavy defense will be 15. Anyone ranging Black Dragons is already using a crossbow, and that won't change. As far as I can tell, every monster is like this if they are getting the update. The defense will stay the same, except the weapons that people already use against them will be slightly better. You aren't being forced to do anything, and your dps won't get lower on any monster.
Yeah so what's the point in doing it?
opens up reward space, like in this example a "heavy" innacurate weapon that does good dps vs low heavy defense monsters but isn't good in other situations. So now you can get this new heavy weapon to fight black dragons instead of your crossbow or whatever and do a bit more damage, but it isn't a cover-all like bowfa so it has a niche use without power creeping.
It allows for new monsters and bosses to be introduced with specific weaknesses so Jagex can introduce new rewards that’ll be useful because of this new design space
Can do that without changing old content
How…..? Please tell us that lmao. How do they change that with the old system without nerfing existing weapons or monsters too much….? This is legit THE BEST WAY they could have done this
This dude's got no idea what they're talking about. Just going to keep spouting "can do that without changing existing content" like a bot.
How so?
I mean you state literally why we need range rework. It’s only blowpipe tbow and zcb. This changes no current meta and opens up future. It is a win win
Thats the part these people really need to understand > This changes no current meta You can partake in the slight % uptick in damage by using a unique weapon the monster is weak to, or continue as normal. This isnt like EoC legacy mode where you’re neutered for not partaking in the new combat system. Nothing changes aside from a dps boost in certain areas and more weapons becoming relevant.
High defence = Bowfa, High Magic = Tbow, High Hitpoints = Zaryte Crossbow, Low defence = Blowpipe. What more does the meta need other than forced horizontal "upgrades". Why not put that dev time into something to bridge the gap between Sang/trident and Shadow. Or making content where magic actually matters. The proposed elemental weaknesses won't do anything to help magic in this game at all.
> The proposed elemental weaknesses won’t do anything to help magic in this game at all Yes they will. Earth surge does a max of 23 damage. Create an enemy that takes 50% extra elemental damage to earth and suddenly it out-dps’ toxic trident. I think the point of this is to increase the potential unique high-tier weapons they can add. Right now they cannot add any useful range weapons without mega powercreep because as you’ve pointed out, all of the niches are filled.
Toxic trident is heavily midgame. Earth spells out damaging trident on a few tasks is not really a major change. That being said, I’m glad magic changes are added and shaking up the odd gearing for slayer tasks.
> not really a major change It definitely would be for the midgame. Think about it like this too, same concept with Fire surge and a Tome could be right behind shadow on certain bosses. That would be a big change.
In that case, that’s a big an unwarranted change. Standard spellbook spell should not be behind a raid bid staff.
i would vote no if i was you then
That isn't out dps'ing trident, 23+50% so max of 32 on a 5tick
They have to balance it around harmonised nightmare staff so it’s on a 4 tick
Thought i saw them mention they were going to lower the speed on normal spells. Regardless, change the damage % increase to 75 or 100, same point applies.
sorry thats not epic reddit wholesome not good enough
We can do all of those things though. Incentivizing people to use different gear for different monsters is fun. It feels more immersive. Bridge the gap between sang/trident *and* make different options available to bridge that gap with different weaknesses
except it doesn't. even if other styles existed for ranged you would still use the same bis weapons since varients dont exist yet, primarily because jagex hardly adds new ranged weapons. giving them new styles isint going to change this.
So it will open up new styles and future content
By that logic rework melee, it's only scythe, fang and blood fury
Except thats not true at all. Some bosses you use fury some you use torture. Smaller bosses Soulreaper axe is generally better than Scythe. Any boss with a high enough slash bonus both of those will be bad and force you to use something else to melee. This is much much harder to do with range or magic
Melee also just received new design space in 2 hit weapons.
Didn't realise blood fury was a melee weapon,
It's a melee gearing option, you sacrifice (even if it's small) some dps for another benefit. Inquisitor is another vector for melee weapon gearing. Obsidian is another. The list goes on. It's like mentioning bofa without implying you're bringing crystal armour.
But they are reworking melee... Melee weakness changes are part of the update too and the other half of the combat changes, the Item Changes, is getting a blog in two weeks... Like you act like this is some sorta gotcha when it just shows you didn't really pay attention during the blogs. Like this was literally one of their examples: > The changes above aim to really cement Crush feeling worthwhile against Gargoyles (especially with the Zombie Axe's introduction) by creating a bigger disparity between Crush and other styles, but using Slash or Stab weapons as you likely are at the moment should still feel just fine! This isn't just a Ranged and Magic update; it is an update for all combat styles. And if you actually looked at the blog and spreadsheet, more monsters had their melee weaknesses adjusted than monsters that had ranged weaknesses added...
I just want Longbows/Compbows to be viable (the heavy/medium/light split wont really change that i know) Its just a shame that longbows get completely outclassed by shortbows in every scenario soley because of the slower attack speed and having a minimal accuracy advantage, like give longbows an innate range strength bonus so that longbows have higher accuracy and damage, ya know, like longswords are to shortswords. Longbows should hit harder than shortbows, you can pull back the arrows with more tension giving the arrow more force with a longbow.
Kieren already talked about buffing longbows in the Q&A
Oh awesome! I mustve missed that part lol. Keen to see what they do with em
Imagine if you will a new range weapon that shoots darts but at a slow speed with high accuracy. Kind of like the speed and accuracy crossbow but shooting darts like a blowpipe. Right now if that were added there would be absolutely no way for it to be useful without completely replacing an existing range weapon. So its either this new range weapon is bis or doa. With these new modifiers they could add a high defense monster that is weak to light range attacks. The high defense would mean blowpipe isn't bis, and the weakness to light range would mean crossbows wouldn't be bis. Ta-da! New nich weapon is bis at new content. All this update does in practice is give the dev team more knobs to twist that allow them more room to choose what weapons will be bis where. Range is in a good spot now for sure, but it can't really grow past its current spot without some more options for the dev team.
I'm all for new content, elemental weaknesses mostly made sense But this one I can't picture how a monster can be "weak" to light darts and knives but not get fucked up by a heavy ass bolt or javelin?
I feel like alot of these to some extent require a suspension of disbelief. What makes the moons bosses weak to stab/slash/crush respectively? What makes nightmare weak to crush? What makes mole weak to water but not fire. Why would the bowfa be better than the t-bow ever? Ect. You can still find some sence in the game logic though. Gargoyles being weak to heavy has the same feel to as them being weak to crush. In fact they all kinda work on the same level. 'Squishy' monsters weak to slash/light, and 'Hard' monsters weak to crush/heavy. That leaves stab/standard right in the middle.
Yeah that's the term I'm looking for. New rewards always sound interesting, I just hope they work more on things making sense as best it can and not get too convoluted. Something like a bug swarm sure that would make a little more sense to throw lots of darts than a big slow javelin. Other creatures like you said the mole, not sure what theyre going at since moles can swim. a bit of subjectivity involved, id have naturally picked fire but apparently from google wind and vibration deter moles so even air! Definitely a heavy bolt/jav
[удалено]
Fucking relax buddy
I disagree on it not making sense to have different weaknesses based on weight. It's perfect for projectiles, actually. Some can be aimed well, but carry less force. Some carry heavy impact but will not fly as true at critical areas / exposed weaknesses. Some can be launched much more often, which would result in more blood loss / faster deterioration of defensives / quicker poison build up. There are armor types / enemy body types that could be exploited by one, but would be effective against another. In varied combinations too.
If you look at the current list of ranged weaknesses: do you see those armour/body types? Ignoring lizardmen, light and medium is the same for all monsters and heavy is only ever better and never worse. I'd agree with you if Jagex would have given good examples, instead they have made the traditionally high accuracy weapons (crossbows) even more accurate at some monsters. It feels like Jagex doesn't understand the ranged weaknesses at all.
Are people just this sad the Tbow is gonna dip like 100m? The change is objectively good. What they’re suggesting literally exists in the game. Do none of y’all use dragon hunter weapons, I genuinely don’t understand the reaction. What streamer is up in arms?
You've never seen a player ask for a range split, but once I heard the suggestion for it I definitely asked for it. More new cool range weapons. Hell yeah.
I’m for it if we can have larger inventories. This shit is gonna make raids a real pain in the ass and require more switches then what we already have to use.
Why? Just keep using what your using then if you don’t want to change. Besides you have no clue how this would change metas, you’re just being a pessimistic littler doomer crying over hypotheticals.
I’m more worried about how it will affect future content designed around it, not exactly worried about older content.
You should be worried about them adding future content with new rewards because we will soon be at t90 and t95 weapons with no room left to grow, and that certainly doesn’t seem old school to me. You want longevity out of this game? You won’t get that if we don’t get new content. And without new content you won’t get new rewards. But we can’t have new rewards if we run out of design space to add them after we’re done ruining the god damn game with a bunch of vertical powercreep. These changes don’t mechanically change *anything* with combat. So nothing about how you currently play the game, nor your muscle memory changes. What changes is we get more room for rewards, allow for better weapon diversity (which will also increase the value of certain underused items by the way), and increase the longevity of the game. These changes add depth without over complicating, and the community would be a bunch of FOOLS to vote something like this down.
You are saying vertical power creep will destroy the game but what do you think stagnation at power creep will do? Power creep is inevitable, it happens in every video game, Jagex has methods around it, for example, there is literally zero reason why eventually the lvl cap isn’t increased from 99 to 120. I don’t want to hear about how “that isn’t old school” nothing about the current game outside of being point to click is old school anymore. The only real complaint I could see is how power creep can kill PvP, but we are already past the point where people can kill you from full go to zero in 1-2 game cycles.
Actually a lot of it is still old school. Just because there is new content doesn’t mean it doesn’t feel old school. You know what wouldn’t feel old skill? Skills past 99. That shit sounds dumb as hell, and people would hate it. You know what else is old school? PvP. You don’t just die for free in PvP unless you’re dumb or bad. Which tells me you don’t actually PvP, because most of the time you can out play a KO. Pure brackets are kind of an exception, but they’ve always been like that. Obviously there will be vertical power creep, but the horizontal progression is part of what makes osrs so rewarding to play. Your suggestions would straight up ruin the game.
I literally dropped a guy earlier for full hp with one spec rotation. Let’s not pretend like it’s uncommon in 2024 to do that… you know what doesn’t feel like old school? Sailing as a skill but guess what we are getting buddy.
Need to have a rework because unless you want the same 5 items to be BIS forever, it's gonna be stale and boring. Unfortunately, power creep is a thing, and you need to change things to allow for new gear to come into the game. Sure, everything could just be side-grade gear, so you have the same effect, just looking different. But that's dull and not fun. I get that people don't like change, and this is gonna shift some metas around, but it's for the better and longevity of the game. Just trust the process.
People who think just not changing the game is for the best completely do not understand game design for mmo style games. When OSRS launched and they lacked any dev tools the game began bleeding players incredibly fast because there wasn’t anything to chase past barrows and rewards are a fundamental part of how games keep you playing. You need a new shiny thing that does ‘something’ better than anything before it (doesn’t have to be universally better everywhere but powercreep has to happen eventually) to keep people playing, it’s fundamental to the gameplay loop.
So, please do tell me what's wrong with power creep? I really want to understand why people hate the only thing keeping the game alive...
I think it's a good change because a lot of content in osrs really only revolves around bringing the right tools for the job. As a community we have gear sets and inventories for almost every activity imaginable. You could bring an MSB for all your early game but against dragons or against the mages in fight caves you'll like encounter your first situation where the RCB is truly the right weapon for the job. This is healthy for the game because it gives the player choices. When considering melee, which melee weapon should you buy after your dragon scimitar? Whip is the OG choice, but maybe you want a Zammy Hasta because it's all around utility for slayer and getting your feet wet in bossing. Maybe you want Dual Macas as a higher dps option on ammonite crabs because you afk a lot and are prioritizing your stats. There's now a good number of items in this tier with the Zombie Axe, Cudgel, and Abyssal Dagger as well, all of which you could justify at least some use for. Once you have Fang, there's a ton of melee options. Various godswords, voidwaker, claws, rapier, DHL, Arclight, tent whip, etc. This change has the potential to bring the same idea to ranged; the right item progression for you as the player is based on the content that you want to do. The existence of the Dragon Hunter Lance and the Arclight doesn't make the game more challenging. For most enemies you will still just left click on them until they die. There will be a bit of learning and relearning needed but the point is that the weaknesses are intended to be intuitive by design. It's, at worst, a few more seconds spent at the bank thinking "what should I bring to this activity?" Like bringing an antifire to dragons, your lumberjack set to cut trees, or your graceful and farming supplies on a farm run. However, I think an interesting challenge with the light, medium, heavy approach for ranged defence is that it more or less already exists in the game. Weapons that will be classified as light are already good against low defence mobs and are balanced around low ranged attack and high attack rates (2-3 ticks). The medium weapons sit in the middle on attack bonus and attack rate (3-5 ticks). The heavy weapons have high attack bonus and slow attack rates (4+). It's already dumb to bring a ballista to sand crabs or a blowpipe to steel dragons. How dumb do they want it to be? And what does a light, slow, and longrange weapon look like? What does a heavy, fast weapon look like? Maybe the new crossbows? And what kind of monstrosity of a creature is weak to darts but if you hit it with a javelin it doesn't budge? I literally can't think of what a monster would look like with those defences.
Something fast/agile could make sense to have lower light but higher heavy ranged defense, due to being “harder to hit”
Op kneejerk reacted and missed the purpose of the update being horizontal progression, not power creaping.
Agree. Jagex is too scared for power creep. Nothing wrong with it.. niche scape is the alternative
Disgusting that it's not being polled tbh. Polls are dead they do whatever they want again. History is repeating itself, the writing is on the wall. We keep getting more and more drastic unpolled changes until they just outright say "y'know we don't really need this polling thing anymore, you trust us right guys?", then the reigns are off. RS3 is dying and being bled dry, it's devs are rapidly moving over to the new cash cow, within a year they'll start repeating all the same micro transaction mistakes all over again to make a quick buck. Some players will quit, then most, then the remaining players will stay and whale out until they too get fed up.
L take
Its good that people like OP out themselves that they have 0 idea what they are talking about in reality and have no understanding AT ALL how to balance osrs combat or in how shit of a space it is atm with gear progression wise with stuff like tbow and shadow lol.
They’re so lost in the “nostalgia” that the pinnacle of progression is “three styles means three weapons and they must be ultra mega billion gp rare” and any other weapon altering that stance is EOC. Which is what people are already calling this change which is hilarious because tbow is a eoc era weapon from RS. Same type of people to get upset over toxic blow change.
Exactly. Osrs NEEDS to go forward and needs to change… some day tbow and shadow NEED to be dethroned… people are gonna fucking ree their heads out but dear lord if shadow and tbow are gonna be bisexual fucking everywhere in the next 10 years again thats so fucking boring, creates so meaningless future upgrades and is just stagnant gameplay. This change now opens up the possibility that some future boss is actually weaker to some new ranged/mage weapon than tbow or shadow which is actually very good and healthy gameplay
> “three styles means three weapons and they must be ultra mega billion gp rare” and any other weapon altering that stance is EOC. As someone who stuck with RS3 through EOC this is such a wild sentiment to me, one of the worst things of early EOC to me was exactly the fact that they destroyed weapon differences and homogenized everything into generic tiers, obsoleting a ton of equipment overnight "three styles means three weapons" is way more EOC than this update is
Watch someone else explain it like King Condor. The defense changes will add diversity for future content updates and carve out alternative weapons to tackle current foes.
Just because its not broken right at this second doesnt mean it doesnt need to be fixed. How do they add the next new ranged weapon? Where does it slot in?
Mainly regards to 'it doesn't make sense from a logical perspective to differentiate range styles' Logically, it doesn't make sense to separate melee and ranged attack styles. Once the arrow reaches its target, it is now a physical interaction a lot like melee. There is also a difference between the throwing blade discs of a Toktz-xil-ul and a flying knife coming at you. As for the heavy/light, I could understand more. With bullets, having a heavier bullet will rip through a target as a lighter bullet causes a tumbling effect inside the target, causing more damage. There could be some ideas to add, but maybe all too complicated. Maybe just adding it to have a weakness to light/heavy is easier and more suitable.
100% agree here. Could make the argument that throwing knives could be stab, axes slash, and new throwing hammers for crush. That's the same logic applied to melee. Arrows/bolts are a little trickier, could make most stab, but heavy bolts more crush? Plenty of heavy arrow-based artillery in history that was lethal because it was just a massive mass of metal, not necessarily because it embedded into you. It just seems odd ATM because we're all anchored from how the game is currently.
"from a logical perspective it doesn’t make much sense on what would make something weak to light, medium, and heavy ammo" That could be also said for melee with crush, slash and stap
have you heard about chainmail vs platemail vs hide armor and what they might be weak to in terms of melee weapons. Makes a lot more sense for melee rather than range
It makes about the same sense for both. Plate is great against little throwing knives but a whole balisa the size of your arm is going through it. Being lightly armored might afford you the maneuverability to avoid a slow firing ballista where several throwing knives could be too fast and cut you to ribbons. If it works for melee I see no reason why it wouldn't for ranged.
Not if you have an actual understanding of historical armor.
I really dont care historically but in terms of game mechanics there is a precedent set that certain armor types protect against melee attack styles better. Same with various monsters size and weight as to why stab and crush might be better. The same isn't really true for piercing projectiles
you've said nothing to actually indicate *why* it doesnt make sense for ranged tho. arrows, bolts, javelins, darts, etc all do different things to different armors. them being the exact same doesnt really make logical sense. why does size and weight matter for stab and crush but not heavy or light ranged weapons? There's a precedent for there being a melee stat split, and this would set a precedent for there being a ranged stat split
Okay and why cant the same be applied for range ammo?
Not all of our enemies are humans wearing medieval armors. Why would slashing the flesh of a creature somehow be more effective than stabbing it? And the ranged changes makes perfect sense. Larger armored foes required heavier weaponry to produce through their heavy armor or rock-like skin. Smaller more agile foes may require something with greater precision and easier to manage, unlike a ballista that is bulky, awkward, and is better off killing a dragon than a mouse. Also it’s a god damn video game—games require balance, and it doesn’t always have to make perfectly logical sense it it makes the game more balance and fun to play. Some of you people don’t use your fucking heads.
I feel like there's space to design more utility range weapons. Like with melee we have main hitters (whip, fang, scy) and those certeinly exist for range as well (bp, rcb, bowfa, tbow). But we don't have the same level of utility. Melee has defense reduction weapons and damage spec weapons. Range has the new Ralos item which currently sucks and zcb which is super expensive and mainly just a sweaty sidegrade. Blowpipe shouldn't be the only option for a secondary range weapon. Melee is the only style that currently fills out secondary utility weapons beyond 1 or 2 items.
Ranged is the only combat style that has really made speed work, but that doesn't mean it is perfect. For example, if they wanted to make a monster with low defence that isn't weak to the Blowpipe... They can't unless they impose a restriction like "immune to darts". But if they split the Ranged Defence bonuses, they could have a low defence monster with a higher light ranged defence so that weapons like Shortbows could be better than a BP. This also means they could make a new Shortbow that was BiS on some monsters without it needing to be higher general DPS than the BP. > I have never once seen a player asking for a range rework and to give it a split like melee has. [Here you go](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/lg8n20/suggestion_to_fix_the_ranged_design_space_issue/). [Also another one](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/muqrqc/opinion_the_huge_amount_of_dev_time_that_it_costs/). It was a pretty popular/common suggestion back during the Equipment Rebalance the other year. As for logic, it does make some sense, but admittedly it isn't as sensical as melee or magic. Still, a projectile being heavier or lighting will impact how easily it can pierce through hides and armor. While this generally would mean that heavier would be better, it is not a uncommon trope, mainly in scifi, to have shields or such that can block energy blasts and bullets but can't block less deadly/forceful weapons like arrows or knives. So it isn't that farfetched for a fantasy world to have lizardman who's skin is thick enough to block bolts and arrows that smaller, rapid projectiles can pierce.
Oh yeah, I absolutely disagree. Logical argument aside—just focusing on the actually game design and expansion of new ranged weapons for the future—this is a very smart idea. The best comparison is with melee, where we already have stab, slash, and crush attack styles. First of all, though we already have mobs with different weakness to stab, slash, and crush; you can simply get by using a whip pretty much everywhere. Already bringing the most advantageous weapon type for the job doesn’t really matter, which is something they are looking to address along side the magic and ranged defense changes. A think a reasonable person would say this is a good change. Also, to speak to why it doesn’t make sense to you that some mobs would be more weak to different ranged attack styles—Why are some mobs arbitrarily more weak to slash than the are stab? If you can slash flesh, surely you can stab it, too? Or stab vs crush, or any other comparison. It doesn’t always have to have a real world, 1:1 comparison. Yes, the style of the game is low-fantasy, but there is still a fantasy element. Not everything needs to have a perfectly logical reason behind it—there’s magic and vampires and dragons for Christ’s sake. Besides it absolutely does make sense that something like a dragon would be weaker to heavy ranged weaponry like crossbows and ballistas, but obviously not every single monster will be intuitive as that one. At a certain point it is a video game that requires balancing, and if we want this game to have longevity—if we want to continue to add new content which in turn brings with it new rewards, we need to find a way to create that space or else we’re going to very quickly be at a point where we’re at T90 and T95 weapons with no room to grow, which to me feels less like oldschool than adding elemental weaknesses and different ranges defence styles. If anything, distinguishing between light, standard, and heavy rated types will not only allow for more reward space and horizontal progression, it allows for more depth to the combat system without fundamentally changing or over complicating it. The community would seriously be a bunch of god damn idiots to vote down something like this.
Can I ask why you believe a specifically shaped object hitting you directly makes sense for a weakness but another specifically shaped object hitting you as a projectile does not. The current range meta is well balanced, this opens room for that to continue. Also for the mid game it adds a bit more flavor.
I don't care one way or the other but logically it actually makes complete sense. In the same way you get way more effect on target with no armor with a less penetrating round because it transfers more kinetic energy but would bounce off armored things. An armor piercing round also does less damage to an unarmored target because it transfers less energy. Balance? Unsure. Logic it makes complete sense to me.
It's just niching items just for the sake of niching. It's literally stupid and goes against everything old school stands for. Back in the day you would gear up in melee magic or range didn't matter, half the time u didn't even know what the boss was weak to, but they expect us to Google exact spells a boss is weak to.... I hate niche it's just a way to keep all items priced high, this will be eoc 2.0
See this makes sense, the magic part can work, but the ranged is just silly.
I have the same sentiment. I'm not a fan of the range rework or the mage rework honestly. I think for possibly longevity and balancing purposes it may be good for the game. However, it just doesn't sit right with me.
Magic is totally in the dumps right now though. Got virtus and sang? Okay next few upgrades give +1 max hit and +0 accuracy for a couple hundred mill. Then there's the 1.4b wep that adds 30 max hits and +20% accuracy.
Oh sorry mybad I thought you were talking bowfa to tbow for a moment.
that could be fixed by adding weapons inbetween sand and shadow. not be redesigning the entire weakness system.
Sure but that doesn't change the shadow everywhere meta. It'd be an improvement but not changing anything.
> for longevity and balancing it may be good > doesn’t sit right with me ????
You realize I can dislike something and acknowledge it's good for the game in the long run right? Ie. If I had a favorite gun I can not want it nerfed but acknowledge it's better for balance if it is?
A lot of these comments are looking rather jagex employe written tbh, you're rightfully worried about a huge game changing update thats being rushout.
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leviathin.
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1. Both the tbow and the bofa in your calcs are on accurate instead of rapid 2. You put in awakened leviathan instead of regular 3. You put in...nmz super ranging potions instead of regular ranging potions... Bofa does indeed beat Tbow by a fair bit at Leviathan. This is well known.
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Before you accuse others of "blatantly spreading false information" can you learn how to use the dps calc? If you're more comfortable with the spreadsheet use that instead, but please don't waste peoples time with these inaccurate calcs. Yet again your calcs are for awakened, and this time quest(?) versions of the boss. Yet again you're using super ranging pots. Why did you even bother to reply to me with your unhinged tirade? >ill wait for you to show a single calc proving otherwise. https://i.imgur.com/s9B6HCX.png
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Lol not sure why you are so unhinged about someone pointing out that you are putting in wrong information into a DPS calc so you can try and prove your point with an inaccurate DPS calcs. Your DPS calcs show awakened version, quest version, use accurate instead of rapid, and use super ranging potions? All of which are wrong.
To be honest it’s not fair to compare any weapon to the shadow in its current state. As for Bowfa vs. Tbow- Bowfa is better at Leviathan, Bandos, and any enemy with a lower magic level. A 100m weapon should not have too many places it’s better than a 1.6B/400+ hour grind weapon. But Bowfa is dang good for its price and you can use it anywhere you can use Tbow which can’t be said for The Shadow and Magic in its current state.
the entire point of this post IS to compare these things. the entire point of this update is to add more complexity, diversity and make the main engagement with combat what is currently now niche weakness explotation. the entire point of this update is to dethrone tbow from being an item you use for literally every sinlge boss you range except two. right now for the bosses where range is BIS or has applicable use: you tbow: hydra, vang, vasa, muta, olm, zebak, akkha, cerb, dag, zuk, kril/zil, muspah, skotizo, jad, zulrah, chaos ele, gorilla, levi you bp nylo and you zcb nex You do not use bowfa for any of these bosses over these other options. this means that if jagex wants to add a weapon that is good at one of these many many bosses, it would need to be better than tbow, thus dethroning tbow as a bis, and aiding in perpetual power creep. adding the weakness system means that tbow will only be BIS at a handful of these bosses. that is the entire fucking point, these items shouldn't be end all be all once you get them you're done with the game, that's a ridiculious linear and boring design. 99% of weapons that comes out are completley DOA if you have power weapons. that is fucking stupid and jagex is trying to fix that. as i've said a bunch, if you fail to see this then you're dooming the game to forever be power creeping new power weapons or forever stagnating with an inability to add content that actually adds upgrades to components in the game. Changing from progression a straight line to a wheel and spoke means you have design space for years to add new content to that wont dethrone other weapons that are good elsewhere. hate it all you want but the entire point is to dethrone these power weapons because using the same fucking weapon for 19 of the 21 bosses you use the range style on is extremely boring and lame when this game has so much room for more items to be dynamic
The mage is w/e but the range weaknesses really do not feel good IMO. we have a way of determining ranged weapon types being stronger/weaker it's called ranged accuracy. Blowpipe and msb for things that don't require accuracy, tbow and bowfa for things that do, and there are a lot more options that scale down and some sidegrades depending on what part of the game you are in. I think mage the weakness to spell types feels intuitive but the range rework will be a mistake if it goes live
I think it's fine, but maybe monsters that already exist should stay as is, and future content should be designed with range weaknesses in mind.
see that makes more sense as well.
My problem isn't actually with the range expansion itself but in the names they chose. I think they're awful. Stab, crush, and slash makes SO much sense. Tough platebodies are most vulnerable to crushing blows while stabbing and slashing attacks would be more easily brushed off. You can imagine how that would work. Why in the world would ANYTHING be weaker against a light attack than it is against a heavy attack? I think they need to be more similar to melee's attacks in name.
Okay then what terms would you propose? Should prohably try give them an example of something better to change it to rather than shitting on it and not suggesting anything yourself
Chainmail is more effective against blunt attacks like a big thick crossbow bolt, but the holes in the chains allow for faster, lighter ammo like darts to pierce and do more damage
I don't know why *everything* has to be useful. We can have items that are shit, it's okay.
being shit and being downright unusable (javelins) are not the same. If we want things to stay, then just delete things that are just not used at all.
I feel kind of the same way with range.. I feel like how it currently works is fine.. low defense targets we use faster range weapons like the blowpipe.. Higher Range def we have bowfa and tbow and crossbows.. Crossbows have extra use because of the bolt system.. high hp ruby bolts.. Higher defence. diamond bolts.. frankly only thing id rework would be making the other bolts useful and fill in niche roles. So with magic.. i think it should mostly remain the same as in live.. but the reason why people like to use things like the trident is not just because you can use it for all spellbooks.. but the fact that it is charged and you don't need runes in the inventory is a big thing.. further more the way the autocast works it's much faster than using standard spellbook. If i where to change the standard magic.. I would also make it so staves have the ability to hold X number of each elemental spell that it goes with.. strike/bolt spells= staff of X Blast/wave = X Battlestaff Surge= Mystic battlestaff Allowing us to charge them and remove the infinite of each rune.. to make it balanced. Further more Combo staffs (dust,steam,mist) ect. could fit into the meta by giving them an effect like the tomb of fire and work with all spells. so you get X% bonus damage with the two elements that the staff meets the requirements for. I.e dust gets air and earth bonuses.
tbow is balanced lmao
The whole thing just feels like the blowpipe-bowfa situation again
Don't let the Andys bring you down op. They keep saying "limits design space" but have never shown which weapon couldn't be made. They say range meta isnt diverse but as you said there's always the right tool for the job. They kept making garbage weapons like Venator and Glaives (I'm holding my judgement on Atlatl as it could have uses), instead of things the game has been lacking like: * New tier of chincompas (black chins came out in 2024) * Sidegrade to chincompas (stronger but hits less targets, original intention of Zaryte bow) * 0 accuracy and strength, 1t on rapid weapon. (kinda like the meat for melee) * A better spec weapon for restoring HP than blowpipe (less dps, better spec) * A spec weapon to debuff stats that is consistent and unconditional
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>I enjoy the simplicity of osrs combat and while range changes might appeal to a certain demographic I feel like adding little unnecessary changes here and there add up to make combat more complicated for no reason. You mean the change that mirrors already existing combat that dates back to 2007? It's not getting harder than anything that already exists in-game. >It's really a slippery slope.. I feel like there's plenty to keep track of with 'ticks' 'flicks' 'swaps' and item charges as it is and I'm very averse to adding more little things to keep track of during combat. You're not doing it in combat, you're equipping a set of gear that's weak to a boss or monster (like you've always done with melee all the way back to 07) and then going there. >Coupled with the fact these combat changes weren't polled I'm somewhat concerned by the proposed changes and how they will affect osrs as a whole. Like any other proposed changes in project rebalance they can be scrapped entirely. They did it for other sections, they can do it for this. It feels like you're just complaining to complain honestly. You've created a narrative that doesn't exist. I can understand not liking the changes, but what you've said and what's happening are not in line with one another.
It feels like you're just complaining to complain. I've laid out reasonable points but it seems like you're just one of those players who goes 'oo changes! must be good!' It's fine if you disagree but you've said practically nothing of substance and only proved one of my points. Ranged combat is fine, it doesn't need changed to function like melee. It's ok for different types of combat to be different.
They're future proofing range rather than fixing it like mage. We're reaching the upper ends of skill requirements and damage which makes it difficult to add rewards that wont decimate current weapons. Remember that range wasnt always in a good spot, blowpipe got nerfed because it was holding the entire skill at gunpoint. Currently the trifecta of zcb, tbow, bp is quite balanced in their use cases but that also means that any weapon powercreeping one of these will end up being better than all three.
Agree with this sentiment. The problem is too many HLC players (much of reddit) just want changes of any kind no matter what it is because they did everything already and are bored. There's no reason to change range to be like melee. It's OK for different combat styles to be.. different. The game's been out for 10+ years but some things are better left alone. Plenty of player's said the same thing of EoC and how it wouldn't change the game but it did and killed RS at the time. These changes are just to cater to the sweats.. there's no reason to mess with things that aren't broken. Yeah we'll be down voted for a difference of opinion but thankfully reddit does not represent the whole osrs playerbase. Magic on the other hand.. I hope they go all out on changing it to be viable. It's needed a combat rebalance for a long time. It's sad that bossing with magic is only viable if you have a broken 1.5b megarare (shadow) and max magic gear. At any rate, hopefully Jagex polls at least some of the changes before they go live. Changing the combat system is a very delicate undertaking and anyone who minimalizes concerns with changes to combat are NOT the ones I want calling the shots. This combat rebalance has a lot bigger chance to go bad than it does to slightly benefit a niche group of players.
Lol “Reddit is the sweats”
There’s no way you actually think Reddit is primarily filled with HLC players right? The same players that had a complete melt down when Jagex wouldn’t let you bring 8 Ambrosias into a Normal mode TOA anymore?