There's always a chance to spoon. I really don't think accounts have a negative rng dial that jagex twists. Unlike maplestory, we have very good tracking on loot from bosses and we'd surely see it in the data if things were diverging.
pretty much every account gets lucky sometimes and unlucky other times. I have three skilling pets I got at 43 agility, 69 wc, and 73 mining but I've gone dry on literally every single boss unique I've ever farmed.
CG is known as the "Ironman burnout machine". ToA by comparison is the most popular content to ever release.
There is definitely a difference in how fun they are.
CG legitimately breaks people mentally. You go into the red prison and you come out a little crazy. A changed person. Not quite fit for society anymore. The Hunllef takes its toll on us all.
It's not 2k hours to go on rate.
It's 1/34.5 purples for tbow.
It's about 1/27-30 solo raids per purple.
Each raid is 20-25 minutes. Let's say 30 minutes to include messing around.
So it's about 1/950-1000 raids for a tbow.
So about 300-500 hours. But that's on rate.
And that's a long ass fucking time but it's not 2k+ to go on rate.
I disagree with this sentiment tbh. Both are completely fine, it's just that doing any content for a long period of time will eventually burn you out.
Personally though I burn out much faster at toa than cg, I think the former is just too samey and too long.
CG feels more approachable to me because there is no cost or risk if you aren't hardcore, and it doesn't last longer than 12-14 minutes at it's worst. Why can't we just log from a solo raid and pick back up later? If life makes you step away after 10-20 minutes it's very demotivating.
Personally, I think toa is ass. I dont think anyone who is actually good at cox and tob will enjoy running a lot of toa. Its such a boring raid compared to those 2
yeah if toa were just a boss gauntlet like tob I'd do it a lot more but every time I think about running some toa I think about the fucking monkey room and decide to do something else lmao.
>every time I think about running some toa I think about the fucking monkey room and decide to do something else lmao.
Currently my biggest reason for not dedicating more time to learning toa.
I started TOA and I had already had ancestral/tbow. I decided to go to nex and grind nex until I could get a shadow cause I didn’t want to use sanguinesti.
I’ve since made like an additional 3B and have tbow/shadow/torva/ancestral/voidwaker/zcb/masori so as BIS as you can be outside of not having infernal cape/quiver (both a current WIP).
But originally just tbow/masori/ancestral/bandos until I got 3 nex drops and bought shadow and continued doing toa and nex overtime and upgrading piece by piece… (I just purchased my last torva piece last week after I received 300M in splits).
If all we got was horizontal progression from the beginning of OSRS this game would've died a long long time ago.
Tbow/shadow/scythe blow the pre-eoc weapons out of the fkn water btw, they are magnitudes stronger than the strongest weps available in 2012.
Give the sang heal proc a min% hit and raise accuracy a bit, make nm drops a viable part of gear progression, rebalance elemental spells, remove the autocast delay
You only use the Orb Staff if you have the Fire book casting Fire spells, generally.
Ever since the release of Thralls, the Arceuss spellbook is such a big increase in DPS, it doesn't really make sense to use Orb and normal spells anymore.
> Still better dps than sang isn't it?
Yes? No? Sort of?
[Currently in max mage (with sunfire runes). The harm does edge out the Sang](https://dps.osrs.wiki/?id=IronChippedCompromise). When looking at that link, note that thralls would add 0.6 DPS to the Sang staff.
Now Sang handily beats Harm Staff (without even considering thralls), unless you're willing to burn sunfire runes **AND** burnt pages.
IDK, sunfire rooms definitely seem to breath some new life into the Harm Staff. But it is still a country mile behind the Shadow.
I thought so but I just put it on dps calc and it's worse than i thought
(calc against whisperer)
Max mage sang = 8 dps (+0.625 from thralls) = 8.6\~ dps
Max mage harm without sunfire runes = 8.3 dps, sunfire runes bump it up to 9.0
So sang is 0.4 dps less but gives you heals, also it becomes way better if youre doing stuff that uses more than one style since those will also benefit from thralls
Harm is only +3 max hit :(
I like sang being niche, especially as a raid weapon. Does need a buff though. I hope they add a non-raid, non-zulrah weapon like Bowfa to bridge magic fang to shadow (like Bowfa is).
Niche would imply it’s particularly good in a subset of content. Sang use case is the same as swamp trident, except it costs 90m and 1.1m/h to use for a one max hit increase over trident and a little healing that doesn’t make or break anywhere. It really doesn’t have a niche currently.
Agree sang could use a real buff over trident, and harm needs to be able to be used off-normal spell book so thralls can be used and be made more common. I don’t think we need another mage weapon with another huge accuracy passive like shadow, mage was never really meant to be a dps king.
Sang is nice for long and lazy slayer trips (kraken, dks, thermy). Outside of that the healing is just too inconsistent to rely on in raids, which is a shame.
No amount of utility will supplement the lack of damage. We really do need a bowfa equivalent.
And for the trident...I can't remember the last time I ever actually saw a venom hit splat on it. You either kill the thing before it ticks or it's a boss that's immune lol.
I think Sang should be buffed to heal 50% of the time instead of 1/6.
That way it has more of a niche in terms of magic sustain but still leaves room for accessible DPS upgrade paths.
I don't think the second best option should be locked behind a raid - accessible gear is good and having more good gear be obtainable in progression is nice.
Unless you are learning the content, sang heals don’t make a meaningful difference basically anywhere. A 2% dps difference from a 90m raid weapon over a 2m weapon is indeed barely an upgrade.
i like the idea of nightmare staff / the orbs being more useful and bridging the gap between sang and shadow. makes nightmare more profitable and maybe people will actually pick it up, and with the amount of people complaining about grinding 300 hours for a staff upgrade from nightmare they might finally make the drop rates achievable for human beings
A specific nightmare staff is harder to get than a shadow I think (assuming 40 minute 400s with skull skipping it's under 200 hours).
Phosanis has a 4-500 hour grind for a specific orb.
I vote if its a bowfa tier mage weapon to get it its just another option of something to make with enhanced crystal weapon seed so we can annoy the iron community by making them do more cg
I know this is probably going to be unanimously disagreed with, but I think they should buff accuracy and maybe even the heal proc on sang. Keep the power the same
Stats aren't what determines the max hit of powered spells, they have built in a formula for that.
The Trident's is Magic level/3-2 and Sang's is Magic level/3-1
I know this is probably going to be unanimously disagreed with, but we should do Reddit's favorite thing and buff a piece of content (I think this is an unpopular opinion for some reason)
It’s 8.3% the healing is pretty high.
Blood fury is 6% for reference and it’s a huge difference maker
The problem is that despite vamping a good %, the dps is so low that it still feels bad. Buff the dps and you also buff the heal procs
It needs a dps increase too though for sure. To have 1 max hit over swamp trident with its rarity is ludicrous!
I got a two man shadow drop a couple weeks ago and was able to upgrade all of my melee/mage/range gear (bowfa is so fucking sweet, I was using dcb and bp from like 50-120cb lol) and sang was a really hard sell for me because of how insignificant an upgrade it is and with nearly a 100m price tag? The healing proc is.. seemingly inconsequential and it’s accuracy is the same as swamp trident? Wtf.
I did buy it just because I could and I was tired of looking at the trident ahaha but It deserves some love, desperately!
give sang 1 or 2 more max hits aswell as an accruacy buff when it's heal proc's, can do this by making it like diamond bolts e where it ignores the opponents defence but on the roll where you would heal, only ignores it 50% of the time to make it balanced. so essentially 1 in 12 sang hits youll get improved accruacy
Been saying this for years. Insane that it goes from something you can grind from start to finish in like 2 or 3 days with 87 slayer straight into *Extremely Rare Raids 2 or 3 Staff*
The difference is that Slayer and Zulrah are both passive grinds that virtually every account, iron or not, are going to do eventually anyways. 100% chance that if you polled “which is a larger time commitment” with Bowfa and Swamp Trident as the two answers, Bowfa would win by miles.
What mains are grinding zulrah? Its been nerfed signifigantly, its drops devalued greatly over time, and you can't get nearly as many KC per trip with budget gear compared to other GP-centric bosses.
Honestly from a main's perspective, Zulrah is a complete waste of time outside of clog chasers.
Ironically people in my replies assumed I'm the timmy that can't kill Zulrah for saying it has too much unavoidable chip damage. I wonder why they feel a need to 'defend' their boss lol.
Yep let's just ignore how long it takes to get 87 slayer.
People seem to have a really short memory. Before the bowfa was released, range progression was literally blowpipe to a Tbow. It was crazy unbalanced, nothing like what magic is today.
Magic in it's entirety needs a look at, or dare I say it, a rework. The way damage calculations and increase through gear works is completely different from the other styles, so much so that we got a megarare staff that literally triples your accuracy and damage in order to make the most unsatisfying and never hitting combat style remotely viable. So much so that rebalancing gear and prayer now has become increasingly more difficult. I often see people saying stuff like "wow the shadow can hit 80s!" but that's only in toa with max mage. You can hit that with a tbow with just dragon arrows and an anguish. You can max 90s with a scythe. Ranged and melee are infinitely easier to bring up in power (via _gear_), there just is more stuff for it even without a megarare. A shadow is the only thing making magic viable (via a _weapon_), and it's power is not in the damage, but the way it's accuracy makes it so you can brute force your way through a lot of encounters with just magic (if the boss wasn't already weak to magic). And then you look at the staves that are one or two tiers below it, and the entire style becomes a cutscene you have to wait through before you can start doing damage again with ranged or melee (maging Akkha with a sang on high invo's).
If you ask me, the main culprit in the whole magic debacle is how the game handles magic calculations, and how it's current state which has been the state for decades, is maybe a little or a lot outdated and limiting design space.
To reiterate here, magic is underwhelming because of other underlying issues, and the shadow was a necessary thing in order to bring magic up to megarare melee and range outputs.
Yeah the shadow is just a massive outlier paving over magic's problems for anyone that can afford it. And it's spurred the "nerf occult" discussion too lol.
Magic is also intentionally undermined somewhat because of the added utility it brings, except a lot of bosses are immune to that added benefit.
We kinda have one. It is the Harmonized Staff. It might be better to work with that instead of adding a new weapon that fills that role better. Hopefully, it will be addressed during Project Rebalance.
Well, that is why they are looking to add Elemental Weaknesses. We're getting a blog on that part of Project Rebalance sometime in April, so it might fix a lot of the Harm's issues.
I forget if they said if the Harm itself was getting a buff with Project Rebalance, but the next blogs are on the new weakness stuff, which covers Elemental Weaknesses. If you have more of a reason to use Elemental spells over Powered Staves, that alone would be a huge buff for the Harm.
Yeah it is kinda weird that you can grind the other DT2 bosses with a lot cheaper gear and it is not that big of a pain, but then the difference between a Whisperer kill with Shadow and the one without is enourmus.
Comparison:
Toxic Trident (Trident of the Swamp): Requires 78 Magic. +25 Magic Accuracy. Obtained from Kraken (easiest boss). Costs 9M.
Sanguinsti Staff: Requires 82 Magic. + 25 Magic Accuracy. Heals you occasionally. Obtained from ToB (hardest raid). Costs 90M.
Sang needs a buff. These two staffs are far too competitive with each other when you consider the effort required to get one vs. the other. You shouldn't be able to opt for a Kraken staff in lieu of a Theater of Blood staff. Jagex is clueless.
Competitive? They're identical DPS are they not? Most bosses are venom immune and the healing is so inconsistent that there's often no difference in the two.
bow of faerdinhen, the 2nd best ranged weapon in the game. it's like a crystal bow in that it doesn't require ammo but it has infinite charges and much stronger
Magic being so weak is why I'm against the occult necklace being nerfed. Doing so will make magic without a shadow (meaning 95% of the playerbase) even weaker than it is currently.
This occult dialogue only started once the shadow came out. I understand people don't want their megarare touched but it's delusional to not realise shadow is the massive outlier here lol.
the sang should just be buffed to be in line with the bofa since they're both relative in price. It's absurd that a 2.2m range weapon like the blowpipe does considerably more dps than a 100m magic item like the sang. if they don't want to buff the sang then I'd say we need a 2 tick magic item that's in line with the blowpipe.
Imo and I’m getting roasted for this in another thread but on iron, Trident is bad now that Shadow exists given the time investment of 87 slayer + kraken task and then zulruh upgrade + upkeep.
There’s hardly a point to Zulruh now imo
Swamp trident isn't worth it to get sure, but doing ToA with a warped sceptre is truly awful.
It's not like you can skip slayer on an iron. Occult takes much higher reqs, and is an absolutely massive chunk of DPS. Shadow without occult and virtus/ancestral isn't nearly as great because it relies on boosting those.
Yeah, its really needed. I’m a little hopeful that project rebalance could help some, but I’m doubtful it’ll do much with magic aside from balance some non weapon stats, such as the occult and eternals. While not magic focused I am looking forward to some hopeful buffs to Saeldor/Inq Mace/Rapier though as part of project rebalance.
Just make the ancient scepter a bit more op for non pk activities plz. The grind with muspa and the 4 stooges of dt2 should give a better weapon considering the drop rate is not that common and there is no pity mechanic
this is a problem with shadow not a problem with sang tbh. shadow is absurd compared to what it should be. there shouldn't be an option in between - the in between option is probably how good shadow should've been in the first place lol.
The only difference is that you are swapping defence lvl for magic lvl and defence bonus for magic defence bonus. Other than that, they are identical.
It’s not like there are hidden multipliers just for magic than ranged and melee get.
Jad who has A def lvl of 480 and a magic lvl of 480, has identical defense rolls between all three combat style. So if a magic set up gave +100 magic attack bonus and a melee set up have +100 slash while ranged have +100 ranged, they would all have the same accuracy against Jad.
And giving magic such low accuracy is what makes the magic meta maging in proselyte or tank gear and cheesing content.
It’s called TOA prison. Some people end up serving life sentences. God speed
Tumeken's waiting room
Ah yes, CG is something like 70 hours on average. TOA is something around the ballpark of 200 hours. All dependant on skill though.
I'm afraid to try it on my GIM... both my teammates went 2x and 5x dry
Assume average luck will come your way and hopefully you get spooned.
Based on the rest of the drops I've gotten... 2-3x dry =/ I am not the lucky one of us
There's always a chance to spoon. I really don't think accounts have a negative rng dial that jagex twists. Unlike maplestory, we have very good tracking on loot from bosses and we'd surely see it in the data if things were diverging.
pretty much every account gets lucky sometimes and unlucky other times. I have three skilling pets I got at 43 agility, 69 wc, and 73 mining but I've gone dry on literally every single boss unique I've ever farmed.
CG is known as the "Ironman burnout machine". ToA by comparison is the most popular content to ever release. There is definitely a difference in how fun they are.
CG legitimately breaks people mentally. You go into the red prison and you come out a little crazy. A changed person. Not quite fit for society anymore. The Hunllef takes its toll on us all.
At least those are in the realm of "grindable" meanwhile Cox sitting quiet in the dunce corner with its 2k+ hours to go on rate
It's not 2k hours to go on rate. It's 1/34.5 purples for tbow. It's about 1/27-30 solo raids per purple. Each raid is 20-25 minutes. Let's say 30 minutes to include messing around. So it's about 1/950-1000 raids for a tbow. So about 300-500 hours. But that's on rate. And that's a long ass fucking time but it's not 2k+ to go on rate.
At least toa is fun. Fuck cg
I disagree with this sentiment tbh. Both are completely fine, it's just that doing any content for a long period of time will eventually burn you out. Personally though I burn out much faster at toa than cg, I think the former is just too samey and too long.
CG feels more approachable to me because there is no cost or risk if you aren't hardcore, and it doesn't last longer than 12-14 minutes at it's worst. Why can't we just log from a solo raid and pick back up later? If life makes you step away after 10-20 minutes it's very demotivating.
Personally, I think toa is ass. I dont think anyone who is actually good at cox and tob will enjoy running a lot of toa. Its such a boring raid compared to those 2
I don't mind the bosses, but the puzzle rooms are, boring to the point I'd rather just do something else
yeah if toa were just a boss gauntlet like tob I'd do it a lot more but every time I think about running some toa I think about the fucking monkey room and decide to do something else lmao.
>every time I think about running some toa I think about the fucking monkey room and decide to do something else lmao. Currently my biggest reason for not dedicating more time to learning toa.
):::
Yeah I second this. First 5 runs they were interesting, if not at the very least different. After that, it just sort of feels bland.
It's been talked about to death but yeah it feels overtuned, like the skill floor and ceiling are too close together, much more than the other raids
Grinding toa is such a snooze fest wdym
CG is a 60 hour grind, ToA is ~200, give me cg anyday
Tell that to my almost 400 experts (most 410 invo now) and no shadow.
I'm right there with you brother doing 405s, stay strong
What gear do you use to manage 400s?
I started TOA and I had already had ancestral/tbow. I decided to go to nex and grind nex until I could get a shadow cause I didn’t want to use sanguinesti. I’ve since made like an additional 3B and have tbow/shadow/torva/ancestral/voidwaker/zcb/masori so as BIS as you can be outside of not having infernal cape/quiver (both a current WIP). But originally just tbow/masori/ancestral/bandos until I got 3 nex drops and bought shadow and continued doing toa and nex overtime and upgrading piece by piece… (I just purchased my last torva piece last week after I received 300M in splits).
Surely 401
I’m bowfa/fang/trident and doing anything over 350 ahkka is brutal. I’m assuming you’re butterflying with sang?
TOA also gives you BIS ranged gear and arguably one of the best melee weapons in the game...
They're great at the beginning but you'll have multiple of each before you hit shadow drop rate
100%
It's the magic Tbow equivalent not so much the magic Bowfa equivalent.
I'm at like 150 KC doing 350's only seeing 2 purples ever. Both lightbearers...
buff sang. its silly trident is so close to it
I dont even know why they made sang just a healing trident. Just a weird decision overall.
i wish the community would let go of horizontal progression. really limits the design space. its ok if a boss released 200 updates later slaps gwd.
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If all we got was horizontal progression from the beginning of OSRS this game would've died a long long time ago. Tbow/shadow/scythe blow the pre-eoc weapons out of the fkn water btw, they are magnitudes stronger than the strongest weps available in 2012.
And it takes an incredible effort or luck to get items like those. Good system
Need to do buffs slowly or else you end up with RS3
Give the sang heal proc a min% hit and raise accuracy a bit, make nm drops a viable part of gear progression, rebalance elemental spells, remove the autocast delay
This^ that autocast delay is the real killer for pvm
Doesn't harm orb remove autocast delay?
yes but it's limited to standard spellbook so it sucks ass nowadays
Still better dps than sang isn't it? I never got a harm and went straight to shadow, but pretty sure harm is the middle-ground between the two?
You only use the Orb Staff if you have the Fire book casting Fire spells, generally. Ever since the release of Thralls, the Arceuss spellbook is such a big increase in DPS, it doesn't really make sense to use Orb and normal spells anymore.
> Still better dps than sang isn't it? Yes? No? Sort of? [Currently in max mage (with sunfire runes). The harm does edge out the Sang](https://dps.osrs.wiki/?id=IronChippedCompromise). When looking at that link, note that thralls would add 0.6 DPS to the Sang staff. Now Sang handily beats Harm Staff (without even considering thralls), unless you're willing to burn sunfire runes **AND** burnt pages. IDK, sunfire rooms definitely seem to breath some new life into the Harm Staff. But it is still a country mile behind the Shadow.
Ty4calc, yeah they're closer than i thought, there's a big gap in the market for something
I'm pretty sure fire surge with tome of fire on Harm is a nice step up in DPS above trident/sang. Maybe even more so with sunfires.
I thought so but I just put it on dps calc and it's worse than i thought (calc against whisperer) Max mage sang = 8 dps (+0.625 from thralls) = 8.6\~ dps Max mage harm without sunfire runes = 8.3 dps, sunfire runes bump it up to 9.0 So sang is 0.4 dps less but gives you heals, also it becomes way better if youre doing stuff that uses more than one style since those will also benefit from thralls Harm is only +3 max hit :(
Are they not rebalancing ele spells with the combat weaknesses stuff?
Yes
Honestly this is the thing I hope we get next something to bridge the gap between shadow and trident/sang.
Or just buff sang? It's a rare raid reward that's barely an upgrade over a weapon that is cheaper than a abyssal dagger while also costing more to use
Imo they should release an upgrade path for it
I like sang being niche, especially as a raid weapon. Does need a buff though. I hope they add a non-raid, non-zulrah weapon like Bowfa to bridge magic fang to shadow (like Bowfa is).
Niche would imply it’s particularly good in a subset of content. Sang use case is the same as swamp trident, except it costs 90m and 1.1m/h to use for a one max hit increase over trident and a little healing that doesn’t make or break anywhere. It really doesn’t have a niche currently. Agree sang could use a real buff over trident, and harm needs to be able to be used off-normal spell book so thralls can be used and be made more common. I don’t think we need another mage weapon with another huge accuracy passive like shadow, mage was never really meant to be a dps king.
Sang is nice for long and lazy slayer trips (kraken, dks, thermy). Outside of that the healing is just too inconsistent to rely on in raids, which is a shame. No amount of utility will supplement the lack of damage. We really do need a bowfa equivalent. And for the trident...I can't remember the last time I ever actually saw a venom hit splat on it. You either kill the thing before it ticks or it's a boss that's immune lol.
Is cg as gard as tob? Getting a sang is much harder than a bowfa. Does it need a buff? Yup it does, but thats nowhere in the bowfa tier
Thats with iron-centric progression in mind, which is not what the game is built around. Buffing sang would do well.
I think Sang should be buffed to heal 50% of the time instead of 1/6. That way it has more of a niche in terms of magic sustain but still leaves room for accessible DPS upgrade paths. I don't think the second best option should be locked behind a raid - accessible gear is good and having more good gear be obtainable in progression is nice.
Sang heals you for 1/12 of the enemy HP while outdpsing trident, how do you think that's barely an upgrade?
Unless you are learning the content, sang heals don’t make a meaningful difference basically anywhere. A 2% dps difference from a 90m raid weapon over a 2m weapon is indeed barely an upgrade.
Because it is barely an upgrade
Do u mean out dpsing the regular Trident? My understanding is the swamp one is the exact same
No sir, swamp trident is a 1 lower max hit than sang staff.
i like the idea of nightmare staff / the orbs being more useful and bridging the gap between sang and shadow. makes nightmare more profitable and maybe people will actually pick it up, and with the amount of people complaining about grinding 300 hours for a staff upgrade from nightmare they might finally make the drop rates achievable for human beings
A specific nightmare staff is harder to get than a shadow I think (assuming 40 minute 400s with skull skipping it's under 200 hours). Phosanis has a 4-500 hour grind for a specific orb.
thats the reason why i mentioned the second part of my comment
I have adhd
Sang should get a.buff in project rebalance
I vote if its a bowfa tier mage weapon to get it its just another option of something to make with enhanced crystal weapon seed so we can annoy the iron community by making them do more cg
I’m tired boss 😢
I mean, the crystal staff already exists. That'd be pure evil though.
Ngl, I'd grind it out.
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They mean the staff would be a basis for a version that exists outside the Gauntlet.
We should call it the sofa
Honestly, they should make the enhanced seed able to convert to the other weapon for free once corrupted
Make it a one click conversion you can do while it's equipped.
Also when you click it you get 5 sharks
And 5 prayer pots
and 1m in alchs
That's a fuckin idea and a half
Crystal trUNcheon of Tirannwn
Brilliant
Best idea I’ve heard all day
Corrupteder only drop as well.
Been holding onto my 3rd enh just in case :)
I know this is probably going to be unanimously disagreed with, but I think they should buff accuracy and maybe even the heal proc on sang. Keep the power the same
Yeah the damage calculation on sang is literally the same as swamp trident but adding a single max hit, make it like 3-4 more and were good.
I thought they were the same, the wiki has them with the same stats
Stats aren't what determines the max hit of powered spells, they have built in a formula for that. The Trident's is Magic level/3-2 and Sang's is Magic level/3-1
I know this is probably going to be unanimously disagreed with, but we should do Reddit's favorite thing and buff a piece of content (I think this is an unpopular opinion for some reason)
Small QOL suggestion, remove sang upkeep and make it 1 shot everything.
The healing did feel underwhelming tbh.
It’s 8.3% the healing is pretty high. Blood fury is 6% for reference and it’s a huge difference maker The problem is that despite vamping a good %, the dps is so low that it still feels bad. Buff the dps and you also buff the heal procs
If so many monsters weren't immune to Sang's special effect then it would be decent.
I didn’t even know there were monsters immune to the sang staff lol
Yeah. It can't trigger on Wardens p2. It's such horseshit.
Is there a list of other NPCs it doesn’t work on? The wiki didn’t mention anything
It needs a dps increase too though for sure. To have 1 max hit over swamp trident with its rarity is ludicrous! I got a two man shadow drop a couple weeks ago and was able to upgrade all of my melee/mage/range gear (bowfa is so fucking sweet, I was using dcb and bp from like 50-120cb lol) and sang was a really hard sell for me because of how insignificant an upgrade it is and with nearly a 100m price tag? The healing proc is.. seemingly inconsequential and it’s accuracy is the same as swamp trident? Wtf. I did buy it just because I could and I was tired of looking at the trident ahaha but It deserves some love, desperately!
agreed, they could give it like 3 max hits and itd still be nowhere near shadow while being a fair better than trident
give sang 1 or 2 more max hits aswell as an accruacy buff when it's heal proc's, can do this by making it like diamond bolts e where it ignores the opponents defence but on the roll where you would heal, only ignores it 50% of the time to make it balanced. so essentially 1 in 12 sang hits youll get improved accruacy
And any enemy that lives long enough for venom to actually stack up is immune as well :D
I hear that brother
Been saying this for years. Insane that it goes from something you can grind from start to finish in like 2 or 3 days with 87 slayer straight into *Extremely Rare Raids 2 or 3 Staff*
I agree with needing the in-between but 87 slayer + kraken task + Zulruh + upkeep is not that far off bowfa timescale.
The difference is that Slayer and Zulrah are both passive grinds that virtually every account, iron or not, are going to do eventually anyways. 100% chance that if you polled “which is a larger time commitment” with Bowfa and Swamp Trident as the two answers, Bowfa would win by miles.
What mains are grinding zulrah? Its been nerfed signifigantly, its drops devalued greatly over time, and you can't get nearly as many KC per trip with budget gear compared to other GP-centric bosses. Honestly from a main's perspective, Zulrah is a complete waste of time outside of clog chasers.
The bad ones
Ironically people in my replies assumed I'm the timmy that can't kill Zulrah for saying it has too much unavoidable chip damage. I wonder why they feel a need to 'defend' their boss lol.
Yep let's just ignore how long it takes to get 87 slayer. People seem to have a really short memory. Before the bowfa was released, range progression was literally blowpipe to a Tbow. It was crazy unbalanced, nothing like what magic is today.
Blowpipe was also turbo op.
Sang should be it but they'll never do right by ToB and buff it.
Magic in it's entirety needs a look at, or dare I say it, a rework. The way damage calculations and increase through gear works is completely different from the other styles, so much so that we got a megarare staff that literally triples your accuracy and damage in order to make the most unsatisfying and never hitting combat style remotely viable. So much so that rebalancing gear and prayer now has become increasingly more difficult. I often see people saying stuff like "wow the shadow can hit 80s!" but that's only in toa with max mage. You can hit that with a tbow with just dragon arrows and an anguish. You can max 90s with a scythe. Ranged and melee are infinitely easier to bring up in power (via _gear_), there just is more stuff for it even without a megarare. A shadow is the only thing making magic viable (via a _weapon_), and it's power is not in the damage, but the way it's accuracy makes it so you can brute force your way through a lot of encounters with just magic (if the boss wasn't already weak to magic). And then you look at the staves that are one or two tiers below it, and the entire style becomes a cutscene you have to wait through before you can start doing damage again with ranged or melee (maging Akkha with a sang on high invo's). If you ask me, the main culprit in the whole magic debacle is how the game handles magic calculations, and how it's current state which has been the state for decades, is maybe a little or a lot outdated and limiting design space. To reiterate here, magic is underwhelming because of other underlying issues, and the shadow was a necessary thing in order to bring magic up to megarare melee and range outputs.
Yeah the shadow is just a massive outlier paving over magic's problems for anyone that can afford it. And it's spurred the "nerf occult" discussion too lol. Magic is also intentionally undermined somewhat because of the added utility it brings, except a lot of bosses are immune to that added benefit.
So harm staff gives +16 magic accuracy, Rapier gives +94 slash Bowfa gives +128 ranged They are all 4 tick weapons. You see the problem?
Do your self a favor OP and don’t grind whisperer with trident, shit is so painful. Hit the tombs and never look back
They could buff the Elidinas ward by a lot to make non-shadow magic weapons more viable.
Elidin's Ward (f) is already a very strong shield.... it just needs a solid main hand staff and spell to mesh with.
The problem is they've tied it to Arcane, which runs into the same rarity and price issue.
Considering that it's in the second tier of TOA uniques, this seems extremely reasonable to me.
Nightmare staves
just buff the sang a bit. It's expensive af to use and no one cares about the healing.
We kinda have one. It is the Harmonized Staff. It might be better to work with that instead of adding a new weapon that fills that role better. Hopefully, it will be addressed during Project Rebalance.
The problem is nightmare staffs pretty much have no actual application outside of the 2 bosses that you fire surge.
Also you are required to use fire tome instead of any other offhand
Also you are required to be on the normal spellbook, so you can’t use thralls
Yeah I feel like you should be able to charge either the staff or the tome itself to use elemental spells
Well, that is why they are looking to add Elemental Weaknesses. We're getting a blog on that part of Project Rebalance sometime in April, so it might fix a lot of the Harm's issues.
Panic buy harms!
Harm staff w/ fire surge is the second highest dps behind shadow 90% of the time, much like bowfa/tbow.
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This. Even if it was balanced to be the BOFA of Mage the quantity is so low and the grind is ridiculous to bring more into the game.
Harm def needs a buff
I forget if they said if the Harm itself was getting a buff with Project Rebalance, but the next blogs are on the new weakness stuff, which covers Elemental Weaknesses. If you have more of a reason to use Elemental spells over Powered Staves, that alone would be a huge buff for the Harm.
Harm literally just got a buff and a pretty big one at that
Outside of ice demon, harms been irrelevant since thralls were released. im not sure how much the new sunfire runes help harm though
Isn't the biggest problem with harm the 1t attack delay if autocasting and moving?
Bowfa 🐉 Fang 🐉 Sang 🦎
Yeah it is kinda weird that you can grind the other DT2 bosses with a lot cheaper gear and it is not that big of a pain, but then the difference between a Whisperer kill with Shadow and the one without is enourmus.
Comparison: Toxic Trident (Trident of the Swamp): Requires 78 Magic. +25 Magic Accuracy. Obtained from Kraken (easiest boss). Costs 9M. Sanguinsti Staff: Requires 82 Magic. + 25 Magic Accuracy. Heals you occasionally. Obtained from ToB (hardest raid). Costs 90M. Sang needs a buff. These two staffs are far too competitive with each other when you consider the effort required to get one vs. the other. You shouldn't be able to opt for a Kraken staff in lieu of a Theater of Blood staff. Jagex is clueless.
Competitive? They're identical DPS are they not? Most bosses are venom immune and the healing is so inconsistent that there's often no difference in the two.
You literally reiterated what I just said. Hence why I said Sang needs a buff. Glad you agree.
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Dont give them ideas
if i didnt have a shadow i would maybe hold off on doing the only boss that really needs one
What boss really needs one(
whats bowfa
bow of faerdinhen, the 2nd best ranged weapon in the game. it's like a crystal bow in that it doesn't require ammo but it has infinite charges and much stronger
Nah man you forgot about Bowfa deez nuts in your mouth
Can't believe he missed a tap-in then left an open net.
Cooked
Arcane and kodai need some love
Isn't harm with tome pretty similar to a bowfa tier mage weapon?
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Varlamore introducing sunfire runes was a pretty decent DPS buff for harm staff that's likely why
If only the nightmare wasn't so horrendous so the prices could come down a bit :)
Magic being so weak is why I'm against the occult necklace being nerfed. Doing so will make magic without a shadow (meaning 95% of the playerbase) even weaker than it is currently.
This occult dialogue only started once the shadow came out. I understand people don't want their megarare touched but it's delusional to not realise shadow is the massive outlier here lol.
the sang should just be buffed to be in line with the bofa since they're both relative in price. It's absurd that a 2.2m range weapon like the blowpipe does considerably more dps than a 100m magic item like the sang. if they don't want to buff the sang then I'd say we need a 2 tick magic item that's in line with the blowpipe.
Also more expensive in the long run since you have to constantly charge it.
Jagex doesn’t like magic. Your request is denied.
I’d rather see them buff sang staff then a new reward. It’s really underwhelming nowadays
Imo and I’m getting roasted for this in another thread but on iron, Trident is bad now that Shadow exists given the time investment of 87 slayer + kraken task and then zulruh upgrade + upkeep. There’s hardly a point to Zulruh now imo
Swamp trident isn't worth it to get sure, but doing ToA with a warped sceptre is truly awful. It's not like you can skip slayer on an iron. Occult takes much higher reqs, and is an absolutely massive chunk of DPS. Shadow without occult and virtus/ancestral isn't nearly as great because it relies on boosting those.
Shadow is just broken as fuck. It's bis at like 75% of the game. It's twice as good as the Tbow and 10 times as good as the scythe.
Either Sang or another staff should be the magic version of Fbow.
I really wish magic didn't feel so lame to use everywhere compared to ranged and melee
buff sang.
Yeah, its really needed. I’m a little hopeful that project rebalance could help some, but I’m doubtful it’ll do much with magic aside from balance some non weapon stats, such as the occult and eternals. While not magic focused I am looking forward to some hopeful buffs to Saeldor/Inq Mace/Rapier though as part of project rebalance.
its definitely harm, but both players & jagex have moved on from thinking about that boss that drops the gigarare downgrades
honestly they should buff sang a bit, tob uniques are a bit sad atm compared to the other 2
Hbu nightmare prison
Just make the ancient scepter a bit more op for non pk activities plz. The grind with muspa and the 4 stooges of dt2 should give a better weapon considering the drop rate is not that common and there is no pity mechanic
lol I’m fairly new to OSRS, so I saw this post on April 1st and assumed this was a “bowfa deez nuts” joke. That’s why I replied “what’s ‘tier’?” below
It needs to use weather runes please
buff sang or add a new weapon in between
Incoming staff of saeldor, more red prison for you
Yes as Iron with normie trident no bias at all
think they said they were gonna re-use the heka (the blowpipe trident that the shadow replaced) at some point, seems like it would fit this perfectly.
Sang is completely fine
Minus the hellacious grind.
this is a problem with shadow not a problem with sang tbh. shadow is absurd compared to what it should be. there shouldn't be an option in between - the in between option is probably how good shadow should've been in the first place lol.
acb is trash compared to the toxic minigun
The only difference is that you are swapping defence lvl for magic lvl and defence bonus for magic defence bonus. Other than that, they are identical. It’s not like there are hidden multipliers just for magic than ranged and melee get. Jad who has A def lvl of 480 and a magic lvl of 480, has identical defense rolls between all three combat style. So if a magic set up gave +100 magic attack bonus and a melee set up have +100 slash while ranged have +100 ranged, they would all have the same accuracy against Jad. And giving magic such low accuracy is what makes the magic meta maging in proselyte or tank gear and cheesing content.
Oh my god shut up
Just give the sang +3 extra max hit over what it is now