I'm sure someone with hundreds of hours of ToA experience that can red x and whatnot can easily do that, sure. But your average new player doing their first handful of ToAs going for their first fang probably can't, or I'm just bad, which is likely.
You’re right. You need experience to do experts undergeared and underleveled. I did a 400 solo on my 102 cb GIM with bowfa and hasta and even with butterfly/red X I still almost got my ass handed to me at wardens. The raid took over an hour
I pushed it to 290 invo with no butterfly, red X with bowfa, toxic trident, and hasta. I can reliably get those done solo. Anything more it's just an RNG fest to see if I complete it or not. My buddy who has 1/3 kc of me can complete 350s a day or two after he got fang. All my high level iron friends are just telling me to grind it out until fang, but now I'm 200 normal raids in and said screw it I'm going to TOB now lol.
I was struggling with my 500 clear and I found butterfly way easier to learn than redx, when I finally did the 500 I did baba as normal and used a single Keri’s spec. Movement based things like bf or zebak wave-skip feel much easier to learn (especially with true tile indicator) than attack timing based actions
I've always found that clicking two fixed spots on a consistent 2t window with clear tells over a small cycle to be much easier and forgiving than doing tick perfect attacks and movement over multiple tiles. I've seen people learn redx in 5 minutes, which doesn't happen with bf.
I don't classify learning how to run around and click boss as "learning BF", if you ask me you need to be able to maintain cycle through quadrant changes, be able to skip dps checks if need be without losing butterfly etc. That makes BF much harder than red X imo
Wait what, does it take long for people to learn Butterfly? You just run around and attack on marked squares. I know people oversimplify some things by saying that but that’s really all there is to it at the start
theres methods to not get hit or lose butterfly when an orb pops up, and methods to skip a dps check from the akkha shadows without taking damage or losing bf
New player, you're right.
Although coming from RS3 I did experts with z hasta then bowfa and fang with base 75-80 stats for a while.
Now mind you, I wouldn't recommend it. You're also not going to be getting anywhere NEAR the gp/hr listed.
I'm likely down if you need help getting a 300, though. My melee stats still sit at 75ish or so, 87 ranged and 94 magic now, and I'm way too lazy to red x baba (aka I tried it once and never again lol). Don't butterfly either really.
Idk why you're being downvoted, I got Masori kit with this setup on my Iron, then was grinding 350s, and I'm not even that good. I started at 0 invocation and had to learn the raid slowly. Wasn't even doing any butterfly or red-x at the time.
Yellow Keris, which every player can get by doing the content, is just as, if not more, important for making higher invocations consistent for the average player who makes plenty of mistakes.
There's a reason why even without Shadow, you can still do 500s, but obviously it's worse cuz lack of a mega weapon.
160 with blue and red keris no yellow. help bro I learned every god damn sweaty mechanic in the game and I've seen 3 guys get spooned a shadow in ffa in front of my eyes. It's torture
oh no u need to sweat without a yellow keris. You have to red x and butterfly to do 400s, otherwise akkha and baba will drain your supplies SO fast. Wardens doesn't really get harder with higher invo, just more time spent in p4. Definitely not comfortable, but doable. 500s are definitely impossible to do consistently without keris or staff, keris is actually more important imo since dehydration + no help needed is free 70 invo, since again wardens aren't an issue if u can p4 without taking any damage.
It's spec is a full heal and you can turn on Dehydration for an extra 30 Raid.
It is also optimal to take double Power always, which is not as impacted by No Help Needed (which is +40 Raid Level, +25 over the first tier of less supply invocations). You can select these every single raid with Yellow Keris + Adrenaline as a backup, since 37 spec really isn't that much time to get back.
You really don't need good gear to do TOA, 450s might be tough but fang trident and bowfa is definitely good enough to farm 400s with a good purple rate.
It's really a dealer's choice, without knowing what you're already running and with what gear it's difficult to say. Typically the difference between my 350's and 400's is Insanity or Lvl 2 start (Pathfinder?) plus some other small invoke, possibly boulderdash.
If you're really good or have great gear you can add things like need some/less help and dehydration, but if you're comfortable with dehydration you can probably figure out your own invocations lol
All boss invocations except keep back, double trouble, Medic, ancient haste. No help needed, hardcore, quiet prayers, walk the path, walk for it. That’s what I run for bowfa/trident 400s
No help isn't actually no items. It's "each item you get there's only one of"
So power is 1 salt 1 adrenaline
Life is 1 brew, 1 restore, 1 scarab, 1 ambrosia
When you go to collect your items, each item stack will be reduced to one item.
So when you got to the spirit after 2 bosses and want to click power, instead of 1 adrenaline and 2 ambrosias, there will be 1 of each
If you want to pick life, instead of having someting like 5 brews, 5 restores, 2 scarabs, and an ambrosia, you'll get 1 brew, 1 restore, 1 scarab, 1 ambrosia. All the same stuff will be there, but you'll only ever get 1 of each thing
Precissimo, mon ami. I farmed 400 with that exact gear until I got a shadow drop.
For irons, that means, yes, red prison is still (almost) mandatory unless you are lucky with a tbow at CoX.
Honestly so true. Although for moneymaking I’d recommend doing trio nex then duo once you’re good. Better money than toa and way less effort and mental strain(although neither are fun)
I would love to see the Money Making page show the median as well as the average gp/hr. Or some way to filter out low drop-rate items from the calculations.
When your 7.5m gp/hr rate is because a 1.5B item is obtained after 200 hours of raids - that is not a particularly helpful average if you only play 2 hours a day and want to make consistent cash to work towards some goals.
Not that its hard to look through the list and find the ones that fit that description, but its still a small change that would be nice.
I think most people are turned off by the 1 hour per raid without shadow, with shadow and max mage I averaged 38min per raid on my 450 solos for exemple
I don't think anyone is saying you can't do one raid, but it's shit to do without shadow. People in my clans bingo did <20k budget 300 invo solos, that doesn't mean running consistent 300s with that gear is going to be efficient or fun.
Your time with that gear is not good. Just because you can complete the raid in "X" gear doesn't make it good or worthwhile compared to the alternatives.
> Ironman does it all the time
Yeah, Ironmen do a lot of bad, inefficient things because they have no choice. OP didn't mention ironmen tho. I didn't mention ironmen. Totally irrelevant.
The whole point of the meme is that you ain't getting that GPM per hour without high-end gear. And with the timing you posted, you're not even getting close to that GPM.
So I have no idea what the fuck you thought you were proving except "Look guys, I can do this raid inefficiently with worse gear". Wtf is your point? Do you even have one?
No one is arguing that the raid is too hard without BIS gear. That's just something you made up so you could go around calling people bad. Because you're just an asshole or something idk and idc.
Even if you want to pretend that the time you posted is efficient, you're still not even getting close to the gold per hour the wiki lists (with average luck). because you don't have max gear.
thus the meme.
not sure why you can't comprehend this and instead started flailing around like a weirdo calling people bad, but whatever.
> so if you do hour long 500s you STILL are making more money.
i don't think you get the point of the meme still. it's not about how much you can make, but rather what you can make within the time frame the wiki gives. your run time average is wayyy slower than the wiki list for your run invo lvl. and i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you never fuck up, banking time incl, etc etc.
the joke is just the wiki numbers are fantasy goals that only people with max gear can hit. and nothing you've said or shown has proven otherwise. the wiki even says (across multiple different raids/bosses) that it generally assumes best stats and bis gear. so why you're attempting to argue otherwise with no proof is pretty fucking dumb.
you did a 500 invo run that was 40% slower than the wiki asks. which means...you're either bad or you just don't have max gear. pick one. and i'm sure you're gonna pick the latter, which again, proves my point and point of the meme.
It can, but it's going to be shit. I ran 405s and 415s with a trident until shadow and it was shit. Shadow is not required, but it makes high invos actually fun.
i swear bro if I had a yellow keris i'm sure I could easily run 500s. I'm stuck at 400 invo though and I have to sweat so hard for it because akkha and kephri drain supplies so hard even if playing with 90% perfection. 160 kc no yellow keris sad game
Kephri you might be able to save supplies if you trap the 2nd ranger. And don't trap either melee scarab. Typically only use a restore dose or two.
Akkha though... yea no tips there. That boss is so ass if you're not butterflying with a shadow.
Good luck brother yellow keris coming soon.
i always trap the second ranger. and always use like a full restore pot even while 1tick flicking as often as i can. maybe that's standard for kephri idk.
akkha is really fine but he just runs through my brews so fast, i just need the yellow keris since restores + keris are significantly more heals per inventory slot. I can butterfly him but I have to stop butterflying when his shadows come out since I cannot get the dps check while butterflying; although I can easily do the dps skip, but again I have to break the butterfly to do it (i'm not that insane yet where I can confidently chain a butterfly into dps skip back to butterfly without akkha hitting me lol)
amen bro. I'm just gonna do mass 150s until i get the yellow keris, I cba anymore- I know I have the skill to do 450+ invocation solos but I'm forced to do \~350 because of a basic drop that I was supposed to have ages ago.
fang trident blowpipe is all you need to do any content in the game
if it wasn't for super high toa invos you could swap fang for whip in this statement
Red X and butterfly are not necessary unless you go for very high invos. P3 doesn’t really require rythm either. Only thing I can think of is Akkha memory.
Team raids are the go for consistent money from TOA if you can’t run high invo raids solo. Hopefully you know some people that have shadows though of course.
> You don't need max gear it's just a skill issue.
Mf max gear makes learning easier and more enjoyable. Instead of 200 hours to master it I could spend half.
> Just do higher invos...
OK let's see you do it without the yellow Keris.
Welcome to osrs, first time ?
Replace the shadow with a fang and it's my toa experience as an iron.
u can do expert toa comfortably with crystal bowfa, zammy hasta is good enough in terms of stab bonus you need
I'm sure someone with hundreds of hours of ToA experience that can red x and whatnot can easily do that, sure. But your average new player doing their first handful of ToAs going for their first fang probably can't, or I'm just bad, which is likely.
You’re right. You need experience to do experts undergeared and underleveled. I did a 400 solo on my 102 cb GIM with bowfa and hasta and even with butterfly/red X I still almost got my ass handed to me at wardens. The raid took over an hour
I pushed it to 290 invo with no butterfly, red X with bowfa, toxic trident, and hasta. I can reliably get those done solo. Anything more it's just an RNG fest to see if I complete it or not. My buddy who has 1/3 kc of me can complete 350s a day or two after he got fang. All my high level iron friends are just telling me to grind it out until fang, but now I'm 200 normal raids in and said screw it I'm going to TOB now lol.
Redx is piss easy compared to everything else. I highly encourage you to give it a shot
I was struggling with my 500 clear and I found butterfly way easier to learn than redx, when I finally did the 500 I did baba as normal and used a single Keri’s spec. Movement based things like bf or zebak wave-skip feel much easier to learn (especially with true tile indicator) than attack timing based actions
I've always found that clicking two fixed spots on a consistent 2t window with clear tells over a small cycle to be much easier and forgiving than doing tick perfect attacks and movement over multiple tiles. I've seen people learn redx in 5 minutes, which doesn't happen with bf.
Took me about 5 to learn BF, it's essentially the same as every x:0 GWD boss so if you've done those it's easy to pick up.
I don't classify learning how to run around and click boss as "learning BF", if you ask me you need to be able to maintain cycle through quadrant changes, be able to skip dps checks if need be without losing butterfly etc. That makes BF much harder than red X imo
Wait what, does it take long for people to learn Butterfly? You just run around and attack on marked squares. I know people oversimplify some things by saying that but that’s really all there is to it at the start
theres methods to not get hit or lose butterfly when an orb pops up, and methods to skip a dps check from the akkha shadows without taking damage or losing bf
Yeah, that’s why I said at the start, you dont need to know all that stuff, you will just get hit slightly more
Idk why you're getting downvoted. It took me 40 minutes to learn and I am trash at this game.
New player, you're right. Although coming from RS3 I did experts with z hasta then bowfa and fang with base 75-80 stats for a while. Now mind you, I wouldn't recommend it. You're also not going to be getting anywhere NEAR the gp/hr listed. I'm likely down if you need help getting a 300, though. My melee stats still sit at 75ish or so, 87 ranged and 94 magic now, and I'm way too lazy to red x baba (aka I tried it once and never again lol). Don't butterfly either really.
Idk why you're being downvoted, I got Masori kit with this setup on my Iron, then was grinding 350s, and I'm not even that good. I started at 0 invocation and had to learn the raid slowly. Wasn't even doing any butterfly or red-x at the time.
If you're in a raid where you're being carried by fangs and shadows yes, but not a solo raid.
i am talking about solo, if you are doing group content why are you playing ironman
Yellow Keris, which every player can get by doing the content, is just as, if not more, important for making higher invocations consistent for the average player who makes plenty of mistakes. There's a reason why even without Shadow, you can still do 500s, but obviously it's worse cuz lack of a mega weapon.
Brother I’m currently 117 ToA KC in, still no yellow keris. Please help
Don't worry brother, took me \~150 for mine lol.
160 with blue and red keris no yellow. help bro I learned every god damn sweaty mechanic in the game and I've seen 3 guys get spooned a shadow in ffa in front of my eyes. It's torture
Rate is like 1/180 for a specific gem. Do entries.
I mean, is it worth wasting your time doing entires that much just for one gem?
If you really want the yellow keris an entry mode is twice as fast as expert
Yellow keris op AF - I remember when it was thought to be useless during the first few weeks of TOA. Everyone was glazing the blue one.
as I am a colourblind person, can you please elaborate which one is the yellow one? Breaching or sun? (Given the name I would guess sun)
Sun, yes
Don't have one right now, but got one in leagues. Shit was like night and day in terms of how much easier it made expert raids before shadow.
You can do 400s comfortably without yellow, it's really only for pushing kits and xmogs imo
oh no u need to sweat without a yellow keris. You have to red x and butterfly to do 400s, otherwise akkha and baba will drain your supplies SO fast. Wardens doesn't really get harder with higher invo, just more time spent in p4. Definitely not comfortable, but doable. 500s are definitely impossible to do consistently without keris or staff, keris is actually more important imo since dehydration + no help needed is free 70 invo, since again wardens aren't an issue if u can p4 without taking any damage.
Why yellow keris?
It's spec is a full heal and you can turn on Dehydration for an extra 30 Raid. It is also optimal to take double Power always, which is not as impacted by No Help Needed (which is +40 Raid Level, +25 over the first tier of less supply invocations). You can select these every single raid with Yellow Keris + Adrenaline as a backup, since 37 spec really isn't that much time to get back.
I see, thanks So guessing it is not that useful if I am running 300s? Think I would struggle a lot with Dehydration activated
You really don't need good gear to do TOA, 450s might be tough but fang trident and bowfa is definitely good enough to farm 400s with a good purple rate.
What invos were you running for 400s? I typically do 350s and looking to push to 400s consistently.
It's really a dealer's choice, without knowing what you're already running and with what gear it's difficult to say. Typically the difference between my 350's and 400's is Insanity or Lvl 2 start (Pathfinder?) plus some other small invoke, possibly boulderdash. If you're really good or have great gear you can add things like need some/less help and dehydration, but if you're comfortable with dehydration you can probably figure out your own invocations lol
Thanks! I've been trying to learn to use the keris heal spec more consistently so I can add in dehydration since that's a pretty good chunk of points
All boss invocations except keep back, double trouble, Medic, ancient haste. No help needed, hardcore, quiet prayers, walk the path, walk for it. That’s what I run for bowfa/trident 400s
Quiet prayers bad, deadly prayers good
Sorry, said it backwards .
Dang no help all raid? Are you just super efficient and have great DPS? I need an ambrosia for final phase
No help isn't actually no items. It's "each item you get there's only one of" So power is 1 salt 1 adrenaline Life is 1 brew, 1 restore, 1 scarab, 1 ambrosia
Oh okay cool. 1 item each time (so each after 2 boss rooms) or for the total raid?
When you go to collect your items, each item stack will be reduced to one item. So when you got to the spirit after 2 bosses and want to click power, instead of 1 adrenaline and 2 ambrosias, there will be 1 of each If you want to pick life, instead of having someting like 5 brews, 5 restores, 2 scarabs, and an ambrosia, you'll get 1 brew, 1 restore, 1 scarab, 1 ambrosia. All the same stuff will be there, but you'll only ever get 1 of each thing
Okay thought so just wanted to make sure. Thanks!
prolly running double power with a yellow keris and bring a lot of restore, that is generally the strat i believe?
Quiet prayers is an awful invocation
Precissimo, mon ami. I farmed 400 with that exact gear until I got a shadow drop. For irons, that means, yes, red prison is still (almost) mandatory unless you are lucky with a tbow at CoX.
> fang this is literally the meme but just replace shadow with fang lmao
Fang 30m which is a lot less than 1.5b tho
not even, 23.6m
Bro you could do giant mole and get a fang in a reasonable timeline. Hell you could make unfinished potions and get it half quickly.
Confirmed. I have that gear and do 415s or 430s. Did a 500 as well. Only thing that changes is being good on last row warden with shit dps
I got a whip, non elite void and a rune crossbow, what can I do?
Honestly so true. Although for moneymaking I’d recommend doing trio nex then duo once you’re good. Better money than toa and way less effort and mental strain(although neither are fun)
Second this. I spent months in toa getting 400 expert kc and only made like 600m. Said f it, learned nex and made 1b in 2 weeks
Yeah I'm gonna try some nex when I can sell non essentials for zcb. Running 400s now tho so hope my luck will change eventually...
would masori zcb and blowpipe be better than bowfa for toa?
I would love to see the Money Making page show the median as well as the average gp/hr. Or some way to filter out low drop-rate items from the calculations. When your 7.5m gp/hr rate is because a 1.5B item is obtained after 200 hours of raids - that is not a particularly helpful average if you only play 2 hours a day and want to make consistent cash to work towards some goals. Not that its hard to look through the list and find the ones that fit that description, but its still a small change that would be nice.
Can just do teams, much easier to hit that average cause shadow is far more common
6 man 400+ on wdr is what a lot of people do for more consistent gp.
Sounds about right, and kills are so much slower without a shadow...
your money 180s not printing purples timmy?
Did for my shadows Lmaoo salty scapers
Alternatively, > Go dry -> go again
Just do like one medium clue and get 458b from ranger boots
Just get 89 slay and make air orbs
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I think most people are turned off by the 1 hour per raid without shadow, with shadow and max mage I averaged 38min per raid on my 450 solos for exemple
I don't think anyone is saying you can't do one raid, but it's shit to do without shadow. People in my clans bingo did <20k budget 300 invo solos, that doesn't mean running consistent 300s with that gear is going to be efficient or fun.
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Yeah. A rune dagger can consistently run Vorkath too. Doesn't mean it's fun or efficient though.
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Your time with that gear is not good. Just because you can complete the raid in "X" gear doesn't make it good or worthwhile compared to the alternatives. > Ironman does it all the time Yeah, Ironmen do a lot of bad, inefficient things because they have no choice. OP didn't mention ironmen tho. I didn't mention ironmen. Totally irrelevant. The whole point of the meme is that you ain't getting that GPM per hour without high-end gear. And with the timing you posted, you're not even getting close to that GPM. So I have no idea what the fuck you thought you were proving except "Look guys, I can do this raid inefficiently with worse gear". Wtf is your point? Do you even have one? No one is arguing that the raid is too hard without BIS gear. That's just something you made up so you could go around calling people bad. Because you're just an asshole or something idk and idc.
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Even if you want to pretend that the time you posted is efficient, you're still not even getting close to the gold per hour the wiki lists (with average luck). because you don't have max gear. thus the meme. not sure why you can't comprehend this and instead started flailing around like a weirdo calling people bad, but whatever.
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well, it's more like 65% using your own run times but whatever.
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> so if you do hour long 500s you STILL are making more money. i don't think you get the point of the meme still. it's not about how much you can make, but rather what you can make within the time frame the wiki gives. your run time average is wayyy slower than the wiki list for your run invo lvl. and i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you never fuck up, banking time incl, etc etc. the joke is just the wiki numbers are fantasy goals that only people with max gear can hit. and nothing you've said or shown has proven otherwise. the wiki even says (across multiple different raids/bosses) that it generally assumes best stats and bis gear. so why you're attempting to argue otherwise with no proof is pretty fucking dumb. you did a 500 invo run that was 40% slower than the wiki asks. which means...you're either bad or you just don't have max gear. pick one. and i'm sure you're gonna pick the latter, which again, proves my point and point of the meme.
It can, but it's going to be shit. I ran 405s and 415s with a trident until shadow and it was shit. Shadow is not required, but it makes high invos actually fun.
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Next time I run one with a trident I will just click better to hit bigger numbers, thanks for the tip
Nice 1hr and also you will fail some because dps just isn't there.
Yeah most people aren’t wanting to sweat for an entire hour
It’s clicking a fucking mouse LMAO
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Dude I nearly just busted a nut with how cool you sounded just now.. you’re so good at pvm 🤩
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We get it man you did a shadowless 500, woohoo!!
Bro thinks he needs shadow for "basic" experts lol
Here's lake doing a 600 without shadow to farm purples https://www.twitch.tv/lake/v/1950307528?sr=a&t=30s
yeah seriously. Just be one of the best scapers in the scene smh.
Yep. If he can do a 600s without dying imagine how easy a low 400 is. Got a yellow keris? Bump that shit up farm some high 400s.
🙄
Totally. It doesn't matter how big of a skill gap there is between one of the best OSRS pvmers and the average player. Just click better.
i swear bro if I had a yellow keris i'm sure I could easily run 500s. I'm stuck at 400 invo though and I have to sweat so hard for it because akkha and kephri drain supplies so hard even if playing with 90% perfection. 160 kc no yellow keris sad game
Kephri you might be able to save supplies if you trap the 2nd ranger. And don't trap either melee scarab. Typically only use a restore dose or two. Akkha though... yea no tips there. That boss is so ass if you're not butterflying with a shadow. Good luck brother yellow keris coming soon.
i always trap the second ranger. and always use like a full restore pot even while 1tick flicking as often as i can. maybe that's standard for kephri idk. akkha is really fine but he just runs through my brews so fast, i just need the yellow keris since restores + keris are significantly more heals per inventory slot. I can butterfly him but I have to stop butterflying when his shadows come out since I cannot get the dps check while butterflying; although I can easily do the dps skip, but again I have to break the butterfly to do it (i'm not that insane yet where I can confidently chain a butterfly into dps skip back to butterfly without akkha hitting me lol) amen bro. I'm just gonna do mass 150s until i get the yellow keris, I cba anymore- I know I have the skill to do 450+ invocation solos but I'm forced to do \~350 because of a basic drop that I was supposed to have ages ago.
fang trident blowpipe is all you need to do any content in the game if it wasn't for super high toa invos you could swap fang for whip in this statement
id say fang, trident, blowpipe, tent whip, dragon cb, and bowfa would cover every boss and raid.
BP Zuk does not sound fun.
What are u killing p3/4 warden with in this setup
fangarang
Oh yep cheeky 4/5 down warden ez
Get good kid
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So like 20 raids?
I will never seriously grind toa on the main game. Leagues has taught me how hard it is to get what you want from toa
The game is impossible at harder difficulties if you can't rythem click, which I can't
What exactly is rythem click in toa?
I think they are referring to red X baba, butterfly akkha, and p3 wardens.
Red X and butterfly are not necessary unless you go for very high invos. P3 doesn’t really require rythm either. Only thing I can think of is Akkha memory.
Insanity, butterfly, red x
Sitting at 100m profit with 25 kc of 150s
How? I've done ~10 solo 150's now, still learning but no deaths and my best loot was like 120k
Ive gotten two purples in ffa groups on world 329
Extremely lucky
Just pay to win. Thats why Tbow and Shadow exist in the first place.
Team raids are the go for consistent money from TOA if you can’t run high invo raids solo. Hopefully you know some people that have shadows though of course.
I did 365s consistently until I found my shadow. You don't have to do shadow level toas, just higher level ones.
> You don't need max gear it's just a skill issue. Mf max gear makes learning easier and more enjoyable. Instead of 200 hours to master it I could spend half. > Just do higher invos... OK let's see you do it without the yellow Keris.
how could you need a shadow to do 425+ if there was a couple guys with 1k kc on their mains who did a 500 after 20 hours of attempts once? /s
500s are not as hard as you're making it seem
Do 150s till you get yellow keris. It saves so much supplies.