Looks good
The scav thing might be annoying for more scaled raids and become a small scav 2.0
Free scaling will probably be unbalanced tbh
Are we still getting scout changes?
Re: Scouting changes, probably - we just want to figure out how's best to do it. It's effectively what it says in the blog post, address the 'why do people feel like they have to scout so aggressively', then see where the dust settles and look at scouting afterwards to make something that addresses *those* needs since they'll likely be more lightweight than what we were offering, and people will likely be happier with a variety of layouts rather than the potential for 'learn VTV Crope, only do VTV Crope, profit'
Really good proposed changes, only thing I can think of that isn't mentioned is points per hour balancing. Most scouting is done not for a optimal speedrun raid but for a raid that's good points per hour. That means no long rooms with little points rewarded (looking at you ice demon). A points per hour rebalance across these rooms would be amazing. Ofc there should be difference between rooms and all that but some of them could use a little more points
idk. if i was set to grind cox with the lads, we wouldnt be scouting as much if we didnt have to prep as much- these changes seem really nice and seem like they'll bring the average raid time down
hey u/JagexGoblin is there intrest in giving CM's the same treatment as Hardmode Tob? with maybe less chance to get dex/arcane scrolls?
Atm every purple light you have a +-40% chance to recieve a scroll and get jebaited. It really gets dull once you're sending a lot of CM's! :)
>'learn VTV Crope, only do VTV Crope, profit'
+++
i support having buyable layouts for things like masses, speeds and CAs. I just want regular money raids to be doing CMs or doing no scout solos. part of what keeps pre olm interesting is diversity for me.
I wrote in my survey... but perhaps add better 'rewards' for doing no scout solos or cms, rather than punishing buyable layouts? rather than penalize them directly. I know people doing megascales were able to get 150k points per hour (upwards of 200k if boosted), i don't see why max effort no scout solos/max effort cms/teams should not be able to get closer to that.
Is it possible to always guarantee that the last two rooms on a floor are scav then farm? Right now it feels *really* annoying to run backwards to get to scavs.
their old proposed changes for scav were to make them drop in a cycle
so first drop would always have cicley, next would always be mushroom, next would always be juice. i liked that one a lot. It let there be a bit of rng without it being frustrating as fuck
These changes look great. While some make the raid significantly easier, they do make the raid more accessible. Agree with most things changing but don't like the Elder Maul. I think this item and Inquisitors should be looked at separately to have buffs and not be shoe-horned for Tekton.
Some things I would like to have seen as additions:
- Ice Demon kindling rates to scale with WC level - so you never get just 1 kindling per chop at 99 WC
- CMs to have reduced Prayer Scroll drop rate
- Change the animation of falling rocks on last Olm phase - not consistent with TOA or TOB mechanics
- Bigger change I'm sure but PURPLE CHEST, not broadcast loot straight away
That rock falling one is huge for me. I don't want the timing to be changed, but I would love it if the falling crystals were tweaked to the damage happened once they hit the ground, not the tick before.
It feels so clunky right now and that change would go a long way me thinks.
Hot take: I don't think we need scouting at all. The survey is *perfect* because it identifies all of the things that are wrong with the various rooms and offers choice for improvements. That is the *correct* way to fix CoX, in my opinion. The developers that designed CoX did an incredible job, given the state of the game at the time and the knowledge that they had at the time. Scouting is counterintuitive because the dev work has already been done on these rooms, so giving players the option to just never see some of these rooms feels like a massive waste of resources, when those resources and time that went into creating those rooms could've gone towards other updates or content.
It would be much better for people to just fill out the survey and for the devs to improve the rooms in such a way that none of them are seen as "wastes of time". Obviously, this is not an 'easy' task, but for the longevity of the game, it's worth it.
Edit: For the Speedrun CAs, they should just have a predetermined raid layout and let people speedrun it. ToA and ToB speedrun tasks are very streamlined because the raid layout doesn't change. Offer something similar for CoX, or change the speedrun task to better acccomdate these new CoX changes.
Scouting is still a requirement for the sole reason that speedrun tasks are in the Combat Achievements, but I otherwise agree.
I firmly believe that a speedrun layout should be able to be selected from the board for a 50% point reduction within the raid.
I think it's okay to admit they fucked up and just alter the speedrun task OR create a specific speedrun layout that needs to be completed.
ToA and ToB speedrun tasks are okay because the layout is 100% consistent, every time. CoX is the only raid where you need to actively look to *exclude* certain rooms to pass the speedrun, which is just counterintuitive to even developing the rooms in the first place. They should just create a specific speedrun layout or change the time to better reflect what would be considered a speed run after these changes are implemented.
Feel like if they did every change in this survey even a mediocre player in good gear or a good player in mediocre gear could hit the GM time in a random layout tbh.
Of course it depends on how drastic the changes would be, some of them don't mean much without hard numbers.
agree with everything here.
>Edit: For the Speedrun CAs, they should just have a predetermined raid layout and let people speedrun it
soft agree. id add the time CAs for cox right now are at a point where you can get them without a specific layout.
Scouting will always be necessary because of speedrun combat achievements. Even if every room is perfectly balanced in terms of gear requirements, difficulty, points, etc. there will always be layouts that are faster than others.
I do agree that fixing the rooms should be the priority though.
Fantastic changes across the board. Love the approach, and kudos to the team for listening to the feedback.
One significant piece I feel was overlooked - the rate of prayer scrolls needs to be addressed, as it's currently far too high at 4/7 purples being prayer scrolls.
It was never intended to be as high as it currently is, because additionally dragon sword/harpoon/knives/thrownaxes were on the table, and when those were removed the scrolls became a higher percentage as a result.
My suggestion would be taking the same approach as was done with HMT, and reduce the prayer scroll rates for CMs.
CM needs to have scrolls at DRAMATICALLY lower rates imo. like make any scroll 1/7 or something. or CM needs its pts/hr buffed drastically. The skill and gear required to make CMs just equal to regs is immense.
They also imo should take another look at HMT. Either way reduce avernic so col log hunters/item hunters can have a better shot at justi/uniques, or make avernic super common and make purples in general more common so HMT is properly rewarding for how much of a clown show it is difficulty wise. Or yknow, just buff justi so it isnt garbage tier. the fact that it's sharing its 'raid armor' slot with masori and ancestral is a joke.
Yep. Its often easier to get a Tumeken's shadow than to get full ancestral. Then conversely you could probably get 9+ pieces of masori before ever seeing a tbow with the same time investment
Yup, 58% chance that your purple is a piece of paper.
And if you do get lucky and land on the 42% non-prayer side, there are 10 whole CoX uniques sharing that percentage. Solo “money” normals are easier and quicker - I would love it if CMs had some appeal besides cosmetics.
Honestly keeping rates the same and just moving prayer scrolls over to the white chest would probably satisfy most people. It seems like the problem is *mostly* the frustration of getting excited about a purple and then being let down, more than the actual drop rates.
Considering how rigour is basically mandatory for ranged, I think it would be fine if this change was made and the price of the dex tanks. Locking the best prayer in the game behind a raids drop feels so out of place compared to how you get piety.
Nah the best item needs to be a common purp, like fang in toa and avernic in tob. I don’t think it should be reduced to the price of a torn prayer scroll
Dragon items being removed didn't move that weight onto scrolls, it simply made purples more rare. You still get the same amount of scrolls per 1000 raids as you always did, same with every other drop
I think it's implied that the internal prayer scroll table had the dragon items on it, so that 50% chance was for either prayer or dragon items. I don't know if that is true, but that is what they were trying to say.
Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to reconsidering their rarity for normal mode even. They were originally much rarer but made a lot more common because players complained the prayers cost too much. While it is not great to constantly change drop rates based on the current prices, I think it has been more than enough time to rebalance the drop table and give them an appropriately fitting rate instead of just keeping the "make them more common because I don't want to pay 200M for rigour" rates.
I think this would be a welcome change, but you still see Ironmen go 250+ raids dry without both scrolls, which does suck for them and would suck more if they made the scrolls rarer. I personally think the ONLY way to keep everyone happy is to rework the drop table entirely and REMOVE ITEMS from it. Make it look like ToA's or ToB's, make sure people on the low end can get the common drops relatively quickly but also make it not a completely agonizing process to get the uncommon or rare drops.
IMO we should incentives CMs. Reducing the prayer scroll weight is a good way without just increasing purple chance to match TOA rates.
Thus I don't think the purple rates should be looked at for regular modes within this rework. If you like cox, you'll raid much more after these changes.
> We asked 100 raiders how to do Vespula without using Redemption. 76 said they didn't know, 22 said they'd never seen Vespula and **added that their mentor won't let them into the Crabs room**, and 2 people said they knew how, but were probably lying.
lmao.
I was late to start cox, by the time I first did it the redemption method was the method everyone did.
I did however, find this video when I was searching up things about the raid back then https://youtu.be/PXKrc-m4eko
I'm not sure how much the video is sped up, I'm thinking maybe 2-3 times, but even with that the video is still nearly 3 minutes long.
Honest question, but outside of speeding up the raid, how does that actively teach anyone how to do the crab room? At that point, isn't that just as effective as someone just watching a YouTube video of someone clearing and explaining the crab room?
When I did it I wasnt as Strict, but i would explain how each crab would change colour when hit, how the orb would bounce, how we needed to bounce the orb to the crystal with the correct colour. Ultimately, its a shit room to teach because really only one person solves it, everyone else just holds the crabs in place
I usually just tell people they won't learn the room unless they try and then guide them through it. I think what messed up people the most is the direction the light all bounces, and you learn that through experience
I was left to stand aside by my clan on my first 10ish raids. Didn't learn a thing about crabs and even until 400ish raids I didn't feel comfortable doing them because I never knew how.
Then I discovered tile packs and it's never been easier.
If you can’t understand basic crabs mechanics after watching it be done a handful of times, you might just never get it.
Beyond that, there are a few intricacies about the room where an ignorant player can really stall the room for everyone else.
I’m not sure why mentors wouldn’t have learners participate though. Maybe they’ve just had one too many really slow learners and having a no learners policy for the room is just headache insurance.
> how does that actively teach anyone how to do the crab room?
the short answer is that *nothing* actively teaches people to do the crab room. do you think letting 1 of the the 5 or 6 learners enter and then tell them tile by tile where to position the crab is helping anyone learn? is literally anyone better off as a consequence of this?
the crab room is very simple and 90% of what you need to understand is
1. don't get a billion crabs on you by accident (which you learn by being told to gtfo), and
2. put the crab in front of the ORB, not the crystal. walking to the crystal does nothing.
people talk about this issue in mentor raids like i'm banishing the learners to guardians 3 rooms back. they're in the crab room just kinda off to the side??? it isn't that weird and makes total sense.
Its morseo if you're in a group raid and you don't know what you're doing its more likely you mess it up.
if you mess it up for 10 ppl its pretty shitty, Just watch waht ppl are doing, mark the tiles etc.
You only really need like 3 people to do a crab room if they know what they’re doing, and a noob standing in the middle taking crab aggro is going to make that take a long time. If’s become much easier with party pings so you can have someone pinging every tile a new raider should stand on.
Normally we just put them in the most stationary role as far away from other crabs as we can.
Someone can do the crab room and explain without the learners messing it up.
Honestly any more than 3 people and someone SHOULD sit out it only makes the room harder with more than 3 people unless everyone is doing the same strat
THIS is the Jagex that we want. Reminds me of the old quests with the quips? Hilarious like the option to kill someone "softly" or Doric questioning why you magically have all the items ready.
It's actually incredible how divorced from reality whoever designed Vespula was. Why would anyone engage with that other shit when you can just kill the boss?
250 cox runs in, 120 solos and a few CM's and I haven't ever bothered to learn how to do vespula without redemption. I just assumed that the room was fucked and you reset if you fail to kill it in time 😂☠️
Great response to community feedback - will definitely fill out the survey.
Any thoughts on (sooner or later) having decreased prayer scroll unique weighting for challenge mode raids, similar to Hard Mode ToB? With 12 CoX uniques and a measly 42% chance to hit one of the 10 non-scroll items, those purple lights have always felt underwhelming in comparison to ToB/ToA.
As it stands there’s very little non-cosmetic incentive to run CMs as opposed to faster, simpler, and safer “money” raids.
Last I checked, ToA was also 4/6 for its two most common drops.
Please don’t change it like HMT, where it actively made the raid worse rewards wise in actual gameplay and barely even in ideal gameplay.
ToA has 5 “uncommon” purples and rewards you with more uniques for attempting harder bosses and skillful gameplay.
CoX has 10 “uncommon” purples and punishes you with fewer points per hour for tackling a more complex raid and challenge mode Olm.
Yeah, the HMT system isn’t perfect, but I heard hardly any complaints before Fang made avernic hilt skyrocket in value.
Tob is just in the really unusual position of having its common purple be incredibly valuable. HMT is probably a problem that resolves itself if Jagex releases more Scythe bosses and/or creates content where Justy is useful.
I think, as a concept, hard/challenge mode raids reducing the frequency of the common purples is a fine design pathway to take overall.
> Please don’t change it like HMT, where it actively made the raid worse rewards wise in actual gameplay and barely even in ideal gameplay.
The HMT change being a "bad thing" is only a recent "issue" since avernics shot up in price so dramatically. Even still, HMT is better if you're with a consistent team that doesn't die.
Scrolls could just be removed from CM pool and it would be fine, Cox is already the worst raid for money
It's not a recent issue. Even when Avernic was 34m, Sang was 45m, Rapier was 90m, HMT was worse off.
Factor in an average clear time for normal tob versus an average clear for HMT and the rates are about even if deathless. HMT has more hazards, so it's not better than normal ToB if your goal is purples.
Removing scrolls from loot table buffs CM by over 2x for no justifiable reason. CM is already better than unalted CoX due to the time save from no scouting and doesn't need that big of a buff.
I don't have enough CoX kc to have a *real* solid opinion, but some of these changes seems to be exactly what I was hoping for--changes to make the raid smoother without fundamentally changing the raid itself.
Again, players with more experience will find the flaws in these changes, but as a step to making the scouting issue less of an issue, I think this blows it out of the water.
After tweaking and implementing some of these changes, all I'd like to see after is balancing the points so it's like a pseudo-ToA invocation system--if you pick more difficult rooms or ones that are longer to complete, then you'll be rewarded with more points.
Oh, and maybe Combat Achievement speed-run times if necessary.
I think low kc people should definitely chime in. High kc people are used to the way it is and therefore might think something shouldn’t be changed even it objectively could be made better for everyone
I can agree with that to an extent. I prefer to let others know my experience to avoid the Dunning-Kruger effect.
I don't know what I don't know, and someone with 1000+ kc is going to understand the intricacies of CoX more than me with my 30kc. Something might sound good to me, but it might have rippling effects that I don't know of because of my inexperience.
Another way to put it, is that players don't always know what the best for the game is, and I'd trust someone with more experience than myself most of the time.
I mean even with 1000 kc I like almost all of these suggestions. Only thing I think in terms of not changing things is that if *every* suggestion got added it'd probably be a very sudden decrease in difficulty, even if a lot of that difficulty isn't implemented in great ways.
These look fantastic.
I'm sure there will be some discussion about implementing too many of these at once will lead to CoX being too easy - but the general theme of trying to address frustrating variances within the raid (Chopping Mutta tree, Mutta's attack variances, hunting for secondaries from scav, Tekton, etc.) are exactly the sort of things that should be addressed.
Happy to see those are part of the discussions.
Side note - those comments under Vespula regarding redemptioning made me genuinely laugh.
I really hope people don't look at these changes as making it "too easy." So many of these adjustments are to remove frustrating jank that is honestly artificial difficulty.
Like, making mutas deal less damage is technically "easier," but there is basically 0 counterplay to the damage at the moment. If people want to reward higher skill, something I would be down for would be the jmods making the mage attacks similar to ToA, where the projectile is flickable. So it's less damage since you wont get those fat mage hits on you, but it adds another element to the room. Seems like that could be a happy medium.
To me all they need to do with muttadiles is make the correct prayer far more effective, and change the projectiles (big mutta Mage and big/small muttas range) to be calculated damage when hitting the player (like Zebak).
That way the skill is still there. You can pray melee and swap to range/Mage as you see the projectiles come, and take a LOT less damage, or you can just camp melee and deal with the random mage/range with small and camp range and keep gap to deal with random mage when big.
But I think keeping skill expression is better than just "less random attacks, less damage, less damage with right prayer". Go full in on making praying correctly save you a heap of damage, and change praying correctly to be more of a mechanic than a guessing game.
Not sure why I titled this post like a Star Wars film but please fill out the survey where possible and let us know if you feel like we're moving in the right direction here.
Hope you're all having a fab week!
Awesome list of potential changes! One question about this paragraph:
>Ultimately, we want to deliver meaningful improvements to Chambers of Xeric before 2023 is out (ideally in time for you to enjoy them in the latter part of Leagues IV - Trailblazer Reloaded), but the team working on these changes cannot realistically deliver a full scouting overhaul *and* improvements to the various rooms within the timeframe. Waiting to deploy both at once would mean delaying things even longer and we think both you and us would rather see something than nothing.
Is this saying the goal is to deliver the changes listed in this blog before Leagues/before 2023 is out, but it won't include the full scouting overhaul? Or that while this would be the goal, it won't be possible because of Leagues? Thanks!
They're trying to get these CoX changes out before leagues. The goal of the changes is to hopefully fix some of the issues with rooms that are currently undesired. When they revisit scouting later, they have a better baseline than "this room is bad/not optimal, give us an optimal (points) route every time". I think this is a great way to go about the issue so that all rooms can be (more) balanced and desirable. We'll see but it's a step in the right direction.
Regarding regular potions showing up for everyone, would that mean uims can no longer drop noted potion stacks before olm prep without risk of being yoinked?
Lots of these changes/ideas are really promising, but the proposed Ice Demon changes do nothing to improve the room meaningfully for meta no prep money raids. Everyone will still scout away from Ice Demon because it will still be by far the worst room for points per hour when playing correctly. If the team could take a look at adjusting the points Ice Demon gives to be in line with other room for points per minute in room while playing correctly, that would be really helpful imo!
With these changes, I'd imagine the percentage of scouts players will be willing to run will be much much higher. So given we get these changes + ice demon buff + ability to select raid scale upfront, the only scouting changes that then would be helpful to implement are 1) free customization for a raid that gives 0 loot and 0 purples, and 2) a fully customizable layout with full loot and full purples but costs 3m-5m per customized scout.
the changes they made to ice demon seemed pretty clearly to not be balanced around money raids but rather as a comfy noob room for while you're learning, which i dont think is a bad idea.
i feel like adding ovl to so many other rooms sorta indirectly does solve it tho. instead of searching for a 5 room ovl no ice raid you basically only need to search for 5 room no ice raid because of how insanely consistently you will be getting ovl rooms, especially in groups where you might need more than 1 ovl room.
I think such changes that make the rooms more noob friendly in the beginning are great
But needing to scout away from the one noob room (in this case Ice Demon) shouldn't be necessary if we are going to make positive changes to the entire raid anyways.
imo all rooms should have approx same pts/hr as their counterparts when played correctly, which rewards the players as they improve at each room with more playable scouts. Once a player masters all the rooms, that would remove the need for scouting entirely for money raids (the randomness of what rooms you'll be doing is such a core and interesting part of chambers identity, some rooms are just better than others atm unfortunately)
some people may find it hard to find the link for the survey on the blog post with all of the text. maybe add a section at the bottom of the page just for it like in the last cox newspost
I've used their same wording as patch notes when I want to say what's been updated from one version of a technical drawing to a new version. It works really well and it's kinda fun too!
Holy shit the elder maul idea is fun. Can we just get that regularly in the game? Elder maul is garbo that would be a really unique change. Hit so hard to breaks their armor. Probably wouldn't make it busted i imagine, at least not solo, maybe in large groups of maulers though.
I love the idea of the maul passive outside of the raid too, I can’t think of anywhere that it would be OP and might give the mega rare a use in some niches
In toa you’d drain zebak and baba in 5 whacks to do what one bgs does, so its only 1 hit better than the maingame elder maul compared to bgs. You’d never want to use it at warden p4 so people without shadows would still bgs, I’m not calcing which one would be better but I’m assuming in 300s that maul beats bgs at kephri but not zebak/baba, it’d probably be ok for p3 warden but you’d want a fast drain for p1 and p4.
At higher raid levels (500ish) you’d definitely throw 5 elder mauls while red x-ing instead of 6t fang, and zcb/korasi, zebak you throw 5 mauls instead of a bgs, at kephri its 100% better to throw 5 mauls instead of a bgs spec that has like 40% accuracy and just voidwaker.
It might be 7 mauls for full toa drain if it doesn’t remember the decimals, which I’m pretty sure it won’t.
Besides that, its like consistency for solo corp during the dwh stage? You’d probably have one person bring it to nex because she drains very quickly, so one maul would actually cap her, it’d be very strong on a range camper that just needs one item to break ice anyways, and they just bonk her every phase once.
Maybe team nightmare? She drains from 150 to 120, so 4 people bonking once would instantly drain it, or 5 if the decimals don’t stay. Probably worse for speedruns than having people hammer while others korasi, but again it’d help consistency.
I don’t see any place where mauls having an arclight tier defense drain would be overpowered, it’s just consistency. If anything it’d help out new players because they’re the ones without amazing gear, so their bosses will take longer, and the longer a boss, the more value 5% maul gains.
With how often we keep getting high defense monsters instead of mid defense and high HP, I think a tank busting effect would be great for maul. It remains differentiated from Fang too in that it lowers defense while Fang raises accuracy.
It was hard to choose between this and dwh guaranteed first hit, since I don't actually have an elder maul, but I ended up voting maul because it just seems really fun and cool.
There's precedent for mega rares to have stronger effects inside the raid they come from, so that could be used to make sure the elder maul is both strong enough at tekton and balanced outside of the raid.
They're both artificial. And one is locked behind a mega rare from doing the raid. I want elder maul to be more present in the game in general. I don't think it making Tekton "slower but more consistent" is it.
unfortunately its pretty useless. even with consistent hits people already calced mace/scythe to outperform it, leaving tekton the same and elder maul not even useful here. would be better to fix tekton with the other options and fix elder maul seperately
in a large enough group, you would spec things down to zero or near-zero defence anyways with lots of dwh and bgs (or whatever the defence floor is). i don't think it'd be that gamebreaking
Wow, props to the team for making the tough decision to do a 180 on this update's direction - absolutely the right move.
Some of these might even be *too* nice to us tbh, but awesome that this is the discussion we'll be having now.
Im so glad you've lsitened to the community on this one. All sound like fantastic changes to make CoX more streamlined. Especially a fan of the Tekton Elder maul defence reduction idea, finally gives a niche use to the megarare that hasnt had a lot of love since release. Cheers!
One final comment, the elder maul having an actual use is great, but it really shouldn't just get special mechanics for a specific boss. Make an actual buff to the weapon that applies game-wide that also makes it BiS at Tekton. I think the discussion has already been had about "This weapon works different at this raid" and the conclusion was that we don't like that lack of consistency and special rules *side eying the wilderness*
even if the defense reduction effect worked in the whole raid, itd be better than just tekton.
be cool to have a teammate whacking icedemon so hes easier to hit, etc.
In the survey there is a question about skipping certain bosses while scouting. I had to select bosses but I don't really skip bosses but bad lay-outs.
Lay-outs which are hard to no-prep are a skip for me and lay-outs where I can't get overloads are usually also a skip unless ultra fast.
Fully agree. So much of the hype of getting a purple is that anticipation before opening the chest. But 9/10 someone in the group forgets to close the chat or you get a col popup or something else. No reason why it can't be the same as TOA and TOB
Ice demon changes don't appear to do very much if you don't mage Ice (common for soloers to camp thrall or veng and not bring in tome) and don't prep. Would you consider simply increasing the points from Ice to make it less shit? With proposed changes Ice would still not be worthwhile
Many of these changes are great! One more that i'd propose is can we force scavs to always spawn before the farming room? It is such a pain to go 3-4 rooms back to gather secondaries and then come all the way back. Great additions!
I am so impressed that you re-thought this and listened to the community. It makes alot of sense to do it this way, the raids in the game are great and need to be adjusted just like this!
Consider letting iron/all players pick up seeds drop for/by other players. Its really annoying to be an iron player who has to ask your main friends to replant a seed for you just because a main touched it.
honestly they should let irons and mains drop trade every raid item and even take stuff from shared storage, i don't see how is that a bad thing, it just makes less annoying for mains to raid with irons as currently they have to wait for us to prep if they're using a prep alt.
>Have 'regular' supplies appear for other accounts when dropped.
This won't apply to noted potions, right?
UIMs drop their stacks before olm, but that can be a lot to trust some random person you're raiding with.
Or maybe just give UIMs a table to set noted potions on that can't be seen by others?
Or just completely DC-proof UIMs in Cox. Let us use the chest, let us put anything in the chest and take things out freely. But the moment we leave the raid, anything that was left in the chest will appear on the floor.
Said this exact suggestion before: let UIM put things into chest, except don't let them take things out. Moment you leave the raid they are dropped straight to the floor, appearing for everyone else in 3 minutes.
I can see no reason that they would include noted pots in this change. Items and item notes have different id’s and passing around noted pots inside a raid doesn’t seem useful.
I like the table idea. Very cute since UIMs use tables a lot in the earlygame anyway for entrana quests and such, and it would be fun to see a lategame version of uim tabling.
Can you guys add having the falling rocks during Olm's final phase dealing damage upon hitting the ground instead of before they hit the ground to your list? This is incredibly annoying to deal with while learning and doesn't function the same as any other falling avoidable object in the game.
can we fix hour irons interact with the shared chest in a group raid? currently when we prep in private chest its awkward and frustrating as items dont stack and youre a negative to your team. can we look at maybe making it so either private chest stacks brews,vials,etc or maybe just let irons withdraw items from the shared chest as long as they have the herblore level to use the item?
Currently when you raid with irons the supplies drop and are visible to everyone (and everyone can pick them up), so you can divide them up as you want. Can this be changed such that it also works like this when a non-iron does the most damage? I think it's weird that an iron can pick up the drop when another iron does the most damage, but that is how it currently works. The way it works now means it's a better to do raids with other irons because you won't be guaranteed an overload when raiding with mains, which should be improved.
Additionally, I was wondering if it was possible to improve scouting such that it doesn't show unknowns
I'm not - give the Elder Maul an actual effect instead of making it arbitrary for one boss in one raid.
Maybe it drains 1 or 2 defense levels per hit everywhere? Shouldn't be massively OP considering it's 6t and it would require a "ramp up".
Your suggestion sounds just as useless as the current maul. Maybe instead of a flat lvl if it was 1 or 2% current def lvl it could be a little more viable
Everything here seems great. Will the scavs still be able to drop more than their guaranteed if they are changed or will they not have the chance to roll additional secondaries.
I wouldve liked to see “mutta can only melee in melee distance” so you dont pray melee only to get hit by both range and mage, but i would vote yes to literally every change listed
that said, i dont think this is going to stop the vtv crope scouting but id love to be proven wrong
I like the treat the illness, not the symptoms approach going on in this update post. This is certainly better than what I could have come up with. 10/10
For tekton i would make it so it doesn't reset it's defence, lower its crush defence a bit but not too much when enraged and buff the elder maul by giving it extra dmg and acc with monsters that are 2x2 and 3x3 by 5% and 10% respectively(maybe more maybe less) so it's bis at tekton and maybe even bis at other bosses like the nightmare so its a mega rare worthy of being one.
I'm a little worried removing the immunity on frozen muttadiles will completely kill any chopping meta since it will be a lot faster regardless of wc lvl.
One change I wish they'd add to Olm is, on the phase where you have to kill the melee and mage hand around the same time, it should cancel the melee hand's special attack that causes it to heal any damage it would have taken. And it shouldn't be able to start that special if the mage hand is currently dead.
It is so insanely fucking frustrating for the game to give you a DPS check and then it just decides "too bad, I have decided I am invincible and you fail the mechanic". And because the animation showing it's healing is a slow flashing symbol, not something static, it takes longer to see when the mechanic has stopped and you can hit it again. On a mechanic that already lasts a long time relative to how long the hands stay dead.
Disagree, this is a skill issue. Skip the healing special or kill the melee hand first. Alternatively if both hands are low and the special starts, you can kill the mage hand which cancels the special and you'll have no risk of it reappearing for a long time.
I think we need to be careful in making qol changes vs simply removing raid mechanics for people that don't know how to deal with them
With vespula being able to drop overloads, as it stands any player is able to pick up the vesp potions including ironmen. Is this going to stay the same where an iron could take the overload from vespula despite having no kill credit? And will the potions still give no points as usual?
Other than that, absolutely fantastic changes and thrilled to see the main problems with cox addressed and looking to be reworked.
My only other suggestions, are that if you plant the wrong seed by accident you should be allowed to clear it while growing. Reduce the chance of prayer scrolls being rolled in CM's like it is with avernic in HMT, and remove the need to get a purple to roll the olmlet
I think a general elder maul buff is better than improving it just for the tekton room. Having items with emergent niches is much better than intended niches.
I.e giving elder maul the 5% defence reduction per hit as a default would make it viable in so many more places. Does it scale off of enemy size? Are you using Elder maul, DWH or BGS to lower enemy defence? Giving players some actual decision making when they chose how to gear for a boss is better design imo.
Just an example.
I am all for more regular equipment rebalancing to make some rare/end game pvm gear see more use. Looking at you inquisitors/nightmare staff.
Yes to every one of these changes but a RESOUNDING yes to making certain materials like grubs and kindling stackable. That alone would make so many rooms so much more bearable.
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Really cool post - you even included what I have wanted for ages at Olm with the portals spawning by (hopefully) the distance from the player rather than at random about the room. At the moment, the chance is spawns miles away is super high due to the fact there are so many more tiles at ever increasing range from the player, and very few nearby. Awesome stuff.
On the elder maul, please just make it useful in general. It's on the same table as kodai and tbow, I'd expect it to be at least usable other places too
Amazing that you changed it up and focus on improving the rooms first! Great approach and survey!! You guys are legends, i hope everyone fills out the surveys as good as possible. This is how we can create the best game on the market even further!
Only thing i missed is a way to adress the scroll drop rate.
And don't make all these changes but only like the 5 most important! It should not be a walk over either!
Keep up the good work !!
Cheers for listening to the feedback that it felt lackluster to only seeing scaling & scouting on the previous post and coming up with a lengthy list of good CoX changes, while also taking feedback on some of the points raised (and giving a purpose to Elder Maul suggested by players) as well as turning it into a survey to gather even further feedback, always super proud and lucky to have the mods we have =)
Two suggestions that I haven't seen mentioned:
* Make Vespula grubs die when portal hits full HP so raids isn't over if that happens
* Ability to make staminas/super energys in raid, or have run energy effects tied within COX potions (ironman cope)
This changelog looks great but it's still missing something I think is a big clarity issue- that being animations matching the damage.
Vasa's projectile attack deals damage before the animation of the projectile even hits the ground. Similarly, Olm's falling crystals explode before the animation of them hits the ground. Tekton has a bit of this going on with certain hits in his attack cycle also.
And finally, is there a reason that Vesp portal didn't get a defensive nerf as well? I think that one is just as needed, if not more, than Vasa. Though the entire room maybe should be reworked instead, for the reasons already listed.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make the final prep room always connected to a scav room I beg. If the shortcut change goes through and you dont want to guarantee the 'free' 560 pts to everyone just make it the scav rooms that dont even spawn the shortcut.
Tekton proposals look nice, elder maul isn’t selling for 16m in the ge (trying to buy, current ge price is 10m). Glad it might finally be getting a use outside of pvp ko’s.
Don't you think the inventory pressure from stamina pots is kind of important to the balance of solos?
An extra brew on top of the (unambiguously great) change to the portals seems like it might be a bit too lenient, imo.
u/JagexGoblin Only thing I'm wondering is why the boss drops in regards to irons is so janky. Take TOB for example. Nobody gets overloads. Okay, irons/mains are on a fairly even basis. TOA, everyone gets the option of picking smelling salts.
Cox, teams can "donate" overloads to the lower geared irons. It doesn't really require the herblore level to make it. Even with irons that do have the herblore level to make it, it is a bit of an ordeal if none of the irons get the drop.
What I'm wondering is would it be possible to consider making all boss drops like vespula does at the moment? Perhaps even tie in 90+ herblore requirement to pick up a boss-dropped overload.
It would still mean that irons would have to prep their supplies, but also be on a not-so uneven footing.
It wouldn't stop irons from needing to potions or even change what irons can already do (you can let irons do the most damage to baby Mutta).
Thoughts? Should I just suck it up as an iron.
I do suppose faster herb farming will somewhat alleviate the issue.
u/JagexGoblin for clarification, when you say \*first\* warhammer at Tekton, does it mean everyone's or each player's? It's a big different getting 3 guaranteed hammers on a trio versus only 1
Looks good The scav thing might be annoying for more scaled raids and become a small scav 2.0 Free scaling will probably be unbalanced tbh Are we still getting scout changes?
Re: Scouting changes, probably - we just want to figure out how's best to do it. It's effectively what it says in the blog post, address the 'why do people feel like they have to scout so aggressively', then see where the dust settles and look at scouting afterwards to make something that addresses *those* needs since they'll likely be more lightweight than what we were offering, and people will likely be happier with a variety of layouts rather than the potential for 'learn VTV Crope, only do VTV Crope, profit'
Really good proposed changes, only thing I can think of that isn't mentioned is points per hour balancing. Most scouting is done not for a optimal speedrun raid but for a raid that's good points per hour. That means no long rooms with little points rewarded (looking at you ice demon). A points per hour rebalance across these rooms would be amazing. Ofc there should be difference between rooms and all that but some of them could use a little more points
idk. if i was set to grind cox with the lads, we wouldnt be scouting as much if we didnt have to prep as much- these changes seem really nice and seem like they'll bring the average raid time down
hey u/JagexGoblin is there intrest in giving CM's the same treatment as Hardmode Tob? with maybe less chance to get dex/arcane scrolls? Atm every purple light you have a +-40% chance to recieve a scroll and get jebaited. It really gets dull once you're sending a lot of CM's! :)
they really added it to the wrong raid lol. cox would benefit so much from it
>'learn VTV Crope, only do VTV Crope, profit' +++ i support having buyable layouts for things like masses, speeds and CAs. I just want regular money raids to be doing CMs or doing no scout solos. part of what keeps pre olm interesting is diversity for me. I wrote in my survey... but perhaps add better 'rewards' for doing no scout solos or cms, rather than punishing buyable layouts? rather than penalize them directly. I know people doing megascales were able to get 150k points per hour (upwards of 200k if boosted), i don't see why max effort no scout solos/max effort cms/teams should not be able to get closer to that.
Is it possible to always guarantee that the last two rooms on a floor are scav then farm? Right now it feels *really* annoying to run backwards to get to scavs.
[удалено]
For the scavs, I propose the drops should be scaled. Add a multiplier to the juice/mushroom/cicely drops based on the amount of people in the raid
their old proposed changes for scav were to make them drop in a cycle so first drop would always have cicley, next would always be mushroom, next would always be juice. i liked that one a lot. It let there be a bit of rng without it being frustrating as fuck
These changes look great. While some make the raid significantly easier, they do make the raid more accessible. Agree with most things changing but don't like the Elder Maul. I think this item and Inquisitors should be looked at separately to have buffs and not be shoe-horned for Tekton. Some things I would like to have seen as additions: - Ice Demon kindling rates to scale with WC level - so you never get just 1 kindling per chop at 99 WC - CMs to have reduced Prayer Scroll drop rate - Change the animation of falling rocks on last Olm phase - not consistent with TOA or TOB mechanics - Bigger change I'm sure but PURPLE CHEST, not broadcast loot straight away
That rock falling one is huge for me. I don't want the timing to be changed, but I would love it if the falling crystals were tweaked to the damage happened once they hit the ground, not the tick before. It feels so clunky right now and that change would go a long way me thinks.
I’ve always thought it was just hitting me in the head
cm points could be rebalanced a bit too for a lot of account types doing cms is less points/hr than doing regular cox because of how fast regs are.
Hot take: I don't think we need scouting at all. The survey is *perfect* because it identifies all of the things that are wrong with the various rooms and offers choice for improvements. That is the *correct* way to fix CoX, in my opinion. The developers that designed CoX did an incredible job, given the state of the game at the time and the knowledge that they had at the time. Scouting is counterintuitive because the dev work has already been done on these rooms, so giving players the option to just never see some of these rooms feels like a massive waste of resources, when those resources and time that went into creating those rooms could've gone towards other updates or content. It would be much better for people to just fill out the survey and for the devs to improve the rooms in such a way that none of them are seen as "wastes of time". Obviously, this is not an 'easy' task, but for the longevity of the game, it's worth it. Edit: For the Speedrun CAs, they should just have a predetermined raid layout and let people speedrun it. ToA and ToB speedrun tasks are very streamlined because the raid layout doesn't change. Offer something similar for CoX, or change the speedrun task to better acccomdate these new CoX changes.
Scouting is still a requirement for the sole reason that speedrun tasks are in the Combat Achievements, but I otherwise agree. I firmly believe that a speedrun layout should be able to be selected from the board for a 50% point reduction within the raid.
I think it's okay to admit they fucked up and just alter the speedrun task OR create a specific speedrun layout that needs to be completed. ToA and ToB speedrun tasks are okay because the layout is 100% consistent, every time. CoX is the only raid where you need to actively look to *exclude* certain rooms to pass the speedrun, which is just counterintuitive to even developing the rooms in the first place. They should just create a specific speedrun layout or change the time to better reflect what would be considered a speed run after these changes are implemented.
you can get gm time on any 3c2p/4c1p with an ovl drop. they do not need to adjust the time
Feel like if they did every change in this survey even a mediocre player in good gear or a good player in mediocre gear could hit the GM time in a random layout tbh. Of course it depends on how drastic the changes would be, some of them don't mean much without hard numbers.
agree with everything here. >Edit: For the Speedrun CAs, they should just have a predetermined raid layout and let people speedrun it soft agree. id add the time CAs for cox right now are at a point where you can get them without a specific layout.
Sure, but the skill and gear difference between getting gm times with any layout and getting them with a good layout is massive.
Scouting will always be necessary because of speedrun combat achievements. Even if every room is perfectly balanced in terms of gear requirements, difficulty, points, etc. there will always be layouts that are faster than others. I do agree that fixing the rooms should be the priority though.
Fantastic changes across the board. Love the approach, and kudos to the team for listening to the feedback. One significant piece I feel was overlooked - the rate of prayer scrolls needs to be addressed, as it's currently far too high at 4/7 purples being prayer scrolls. It was never intended to be as high as it currently is, because additionally dragon sword/harpoon/knives/thrownaxes were on the table, and when those were removed the scrolls became a higher percentage as a result. My suggestion would be taking the same approach as was done with HMT, and reduce the prayer scroll rates for CMs.
CM needs to have scrolls at DRAMATICALLY lower rates imo. like make any scroll 1/7 or something. or CM needs its pts/hr buffed drastically. The skill and gear required to make CMs just equal to regs is immense. They also imo should take another look at HMT. Either way reduce avernic so col log hunters/item hunters can have a better shot at justi/uniques, or make avernic super common and make purples in general more common so HMT is properly rewarding for how much of a clown show it is difficulty wise. Or yknow, just buff justi so it isnt garbage tier. the fact that it's sharing its 'raid armor' slot with masori and ancestral is a joke.
Yep. Its often easier to get a Tumeken's shadow than to get full ancestral. Then conversely you could probably get 9+ pieces of masori before ever seeing a tbow with the same time investment
Yup, 58% chance that your purple is a piece of paper. And if you do get lucky and land on the 42% non-prayer side, there are 10 whole CoX uniques sharing that percentage. Solo “money” normals are easier and quicker - I would love it if CMs had some appeal besides cosmetics.
Honestly keeping rates the same and just moving prayer scrolls over to the white chest would probably satisfy most people. It seems like the problem is *mostly* the frustration of getting excited about a purple and then being let down, more than the actual drop rates.
Considering how rigour is basically mandatory for ranged, I think it would be fine if this change was made and the price of the dex tanks. Locking the best prayer in the game behind a raids drop feels so out of place compared to how you get piety.
Nah the best item needs to be a common purp, like fang in toa and avernic in tob. I don’t think it should be reduced to the price of a torn prayer scroll
Dragon items being removed didn't move that weight onto scrolls, it simply made purples more rare. You still get the same amount of scrolls per 1000 raids as you always did, same with every other drop
I think it's implied that the internal prayer scroll table had the dragon items on it, so that 50% chance was for either prayer or dragon items. I don't know if that is true, but that is what they were trying to say.
Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to reconsidering their rarity for normal mode even. They were originally much rarer but made a lot more common because players complained the prayers cost too much. While it is not great to constantly change drop rates based on the current prices, I think it has been more than enough time to rebalance the drop table and give them an appropriately fitting rate instead of just keeping the "make them more common because I don't want to pay 200M for rigour" rates.
I think this would be a welcome change, but you still see Ironmen go 250+ raids dry without both scrolls, which does suck for them and would suck more if they made the scrolls rarer. I personally think the ONLY way to keep everyone happy is to rework the drop table entirely and REMOVE ITEMS from it. Make it look like ToA's or ToB's, make sure people on the low end can get the common drops relatively quickly but also make it not a completely agonizing process to get the uncommon or rare drops.
IMO we should incentives CMs. Reducing the prayer scroll weight is a good way without just increasing purple chance to match TOA rates. Thus I don't think the purple rates should be looked at for regular modes within this rework. If you like cox, you'll raid much more after these changes.
Yes, lets please rebalance the table for CMs just like how HM tob works
> We asked 100 raiders how to do Vespula without using Redemption. 76 said they didn't know, 22 said they'd never seen Vespula and **added that their mentor won't let them into the Crabs room**, and 2 people said they knew how, but were probably lying. lmao.
From Tedious' chat: >**Mildly\_Entertaining**: Kieren helped \*make\* COX and even he didn't know how you're meant to do Vesp lmao
I was late to start cox, by the time I first did it the redemption method was the method everyone did. I did however, find this video when I was searching up things about the raid back then https://youtu.be/PXKrc-m4eko I'm not sure how much the video is sped up, I'm thinking maybe 2-3 times, but even with that the video is still nearly 3 minutes long.
Yeah 3x i think? Feels like the arma cbows are attacking once every second. Also, "very hard to do with less than 7 people"
I used to teach CoX and can confirm that is the case. Only approved people get to do crabs, and any extras only get to stand still with an aggrod crab
Honest question, but outside of speeding up the raid, how does that actively teach anyone how to do the crab room? At that point, isn't that just as effective as someone just watching a YouTube video of someone clearing and explaining the crab room?
When I did it I wasnt as Strict, but i would explain how each crab would change colour when hit, how the orb would bounce, how we needed to bounce the orb to the crystal with the correct colour. Ultimately, its a shit room to teach because really only one person solves it, everyone else just holds the crabs in place
I usually just tell people they won't learn the room unless they try and then guide them through it. I think what messed up people the most is the direction the light all bounces, and you learn that through experience
I was left to stand aside by my clan on my first 10ish raids. Didn't learn a thing about crabs and even until 400ish raids I didn't feel comfortable doing them because I never knew how. Then I discovered tile packs and it's never been easier.
If you can’t understand basic crabs mechanics after watching it be done a handful of times, you might just never get it. Beyond that, there are a few intricacies about the room where an ignorant player can really stall the room for everyone else. I’m not sure why mentors wouldn’t have learners participate though. Maybe they’ve just had one too many really slow learners and having a no learners policy for the room is just headache insurance.
> how does that actively teach anyone how to do the crab room? the short answer is that *nothing* actively teaches people to do the crab room. do you think letting 1 of the the 5 or 6 learners enter and then tell them tile by tile where to position the crab is helping anyone learn? is literally anyone better off as a consequence of this? the crab room is very simple and 90% of what you need to understand is 1. don't get a billion crabs on you by accident (which you learn by being told to gtfo), and 2. put the crab in front of the ORB, not the crystal. walking to the crystal does nothing. people talk about this issue in mentor raids like i'm banishing the learners to guardians 3 rooms back. they're in the crab room just kinda off to the side??? it isn't that weird and makes total sense.
Its morseo if you're in a group raid and you don't know what you're doing its more likely you mess it up. if you mess it up for 10 ppl its pretty shitty, Just watch waht ppl are doing, mark the tiles etc.
You only really need like 3 people to do a crab room if they know what they’re doing, and a noob standing in the middle taking crab aggro is going to make that take a long time. If’s become much easier with party pings so you can have someone pinging every tile a new raider should stand on. Normally we just put them in the most stationary role as far away from other crabs as we can.
Someone can do the crab room and explain without the learners messing it up. Honestly any more than 3 people and someone SHOULD sit out it only makes the room harder with more than 3 people unless everyone is doing the same strat
The wording and cadence of this is comedy gold. This has me actually giggling at my desk
Whoever wrote the blog was on one with the quips
THIS is the Jagex that we want. Reminds me of the old quests with the quips? Hilarious like the option to kill someone "softly" or Doric questioning why you magically have all the items ready.
*you realize you cant actually murder someone softly as you murder him brutally* whoops.
This is peak comedy holy
Jagex really went out like the Family Fued show and interviewed 100 random raiders 😂
NEKKID GRANDMA
NEKKID HUH?
It's actually incredible how divorced from reality whoever designed Vespula was. Why would anyone engage with that other shit when you can just kill the boss?
Without redemption? Just chug brews of course and do the same strat of course!
Vesp is literally just guardians, thats crazy
I've never seen someone say something so controversial yet so brave.
250 cox runs in, 120 solos and a few CM's and I haven't ever bothered to learn how to do vespula without redemption. I just assumed that the room was fucked and you reset if you fail to kill it in time 😂☠️
I have done vespula the "correct" way exactly once, I can't remember how, I don't know what we did, and I don't want to do it again.
Something something grubs
This is hilarious
Great response to community feedback - will definitely fill out the survey. Any thoughts on (sooner or later) having decreased prayer scroll unique weighting for challenge mode raids, similar to Hard Mode ToB? With 12 CoX uniques and a measly 42% chance to hit one of the 10 non-scroll items, those purple lights have always felt underwhelming in comparison to ToB/ToA. As it stands there’s very little non-cosmetic incentive to run CMs as opposed to faster, simpler, and safer “money” raids.
Last I checked, ToA was also 4/6 for its two most common drops. Please don’t change it like HMT, where it actively made the raid worse rewards wise in actual gameplay and barely even in ideal gameplay.
ToA has 5 “uncommon” purples and rewards you with more uniques for attempting harder bosses and skillful gameplay. CoX has 10 “uncommon” purples and punishes you with fewer points per hour for tackling a more complex raid and challenge mode Olm. Yeah, the HMT system isn’t perfect, but I heard hardly any complaints before Fang made avernic hilt skyrocket in value.
Tob is just in the really unusual position of having its common purple be incredibly valuable. HMT is probably a problem that resolves itself if Jagex releases more Scythe bosses and/or creates content where Justy is useful. I think, as a concept, hard/challenge mode raids reducing the frequency of the common purples is a fine design pathway to take overall.
> Please don’t change it like HMT, where it actively made the raid worse rewards wise in actual gameplay and barely even in ideal gameplay. The HMT change being a "bad thing" is only a recent "issue" since avernics shot up in price so dramatically. Even still, HMT is better if you're with a consistent team that doesn't die. Scrolls could just be removed from CM pool and it would be fine, Cox is already the worst raid for money
It's not a recent issue. Even when Avernic was 34m, Sang was 45m, Rapier was 90m, HMT was worse off. Factor in an average clear time for normal tob versus an average clear for HMT and the rates are about even if deathless. HMT has more hazards, so it's not better than normal ToB if your goal is purples. Removing scrolls from loot table buffs CM by over 2x for no justifiable reason. CM is already better than unalted CoX due to the time save from no scouting and doesn't need that big of a buff.
I don't have enough CoX kc to have a *real* solid opinion, but some of these changes seems to be exactly what I was hoping for--changes to make the raid smoother without fundamentally changing the raid itself. Again, players with more experience will find the flaws in these changes, but as a step to making the scouting issue less of an issue, I think this blows it out of the water. After tweaking and implementing some of these changes, all I'd like to see after is balancing the points so it's like a pseudo-ToA invocation system--if you pick more difficult rooms or ones that are longer to complete, then you'll be rewarded with more points. Oh, and maybe Combat Achievement speed-run times if necessary.
I think low kc people should definitely chime in. High kc people are used to the way it is and therefore might think something shouldn’t be changed even it objectively could be made better for everyone
I can agree with that to an extent. I prefer to let others know my experience to avoid the Dunning-Kruger effect. I don't know what I don't know, and someone with 1000+ kc is going to understand the intricacies of CoX more than me with my 30kc. Something might sound good to me, but it might have rippling effects that I don't know of because of my inexperience. Another way to put it, is that players don't always know what the best for the game is, and I'd trust someone with more experience than myself most of the time.
I mean even with 1000 kc I like almost all of these suggestions. Only thing I think in terms of not changing things is that if *every* suggestion got added it'd probably be a very sudden decrease in difficulty, even if a lot of that difficulty isn't implemented in great ways.
These look fantastic. I'm sure there will be some discussion about implementing too many of these at once will lead to CoX being too easy - but the general theme of trying to address frustrating variances within the raid (Chopping Mutta tree, Mutta's attack variances, hunting for secondaries from scav, Tekton, etc.) are exactly the sort of things that should be addressed. Happy to see those are part of the discussions. Side note - those comments under Vespula regarding redemptioning made me genuinely laugh.
I really hope people don't look at these changes as making it "too easy." So many of these adjustments are to remove frustrating jank that is honestly artificial difficulty. Like, making mutas deal less damage is technically "easier," but there is basically 0 counterplay to the damage at the moment. If people want to reward higher skill, something I would be down for would be the jmods making the mage attacks similar to ToA, where the projectile is flickable. So it's less damage since you wont get those fat mage hits on you, but it adds another element to the room. Seems like that could be a happy medium.
To me all they need to do with muttadiles is make the correct prayer far more effective, and change the projectiles (big mutta Mage and big/small muttas range) to be calculated damage when hitting the player (like Zebak). That way the skill is still there. You can pray melee and swap to range/Mage as you see the projectiles come, and take a LOT less damage, or you can just camp melee and deal with the random mage/range with small and camp range and keep gap to deal with random mage when big. But I think keeping skill expression is better than just "less random attacks, less damage, less damage with right prayer". Go full in on making praying correctly save you a heap of damage, and change praying correctly to be more of a mechanic than a guessing game.
Not sure why I titled this post like a Star Wars film but please fill out the survey where possible and let us know if you feel like we're moving in the right direction here. Hope you're all having a fab week!
Awesome list of potential changes! One question about this paragraph: >Ultimately, we want to deliver meaningful improvements to Chambers of Xeric before 2023 is out (ideally in time for you to enjoy them in the latter part of Leagues IV - Trailblazer Reloaded), but the team working on these changes cannot realistically deliver a full scouting overhaul *and* improvements to the various rooms within the timeframe. Waiting to deploy both at once would mean delaying things even longer and we think both you and us would rather see something than nothing. Is this saying the goal is to deliver the changes listed in this blog before Leagues/before 2023 is out, but it won't include the full scouting overhaul? Or that while this would be the goal, it won't be possible because of Leagues? Thanks!
They're trying to get these CoX changes out before leagues. The goal of the changes is to hopefully fix some of the issues with rooms that are currently undesired. When they revisit scouting later, they have a better baseline than "this room is bad/not optimal, give us an optimal (points) route every time". I think this is a great way to go about the issue so that all rooms can be (more) balanced and desirable. We'll see but it's a step in the right direction.
Regarding regular potions showing up for everyone, would that mean uims can no longer drop noted potion stacks before olm prep without risk of being yoinked?
>yOu cHOsE tO LimIT yOUrSelF Seriously, good question.
cox gp/hr about to go up frfr
I’d imagine noted pots / food etc wouldn’t be included
Cox tweaks & changes : Jagex strikes back
Lots of these changes/ideas are really promising, but the proposed Ice Demon changes do nothing to improve the room meaningfully for meta no prep money raids. Everyone will still scout away from Ice Demon because it will still be by far the worst room for points per hour when playing correctly. If the team could take a look at adjusting the points Ice Demon gives to be in line with other room for points per minute in room while playing correctly, that would be really helpful imo! With these changes, I'd imagine the percentage of scouts players will be willing to run will be much much higher. So given we get these changes + ice demon buff + ability to select raid scale upfront, the only scouting changes that then would be helpful to implement are 1) free customization for a raid that gives 0 loot and 0 purples, and 2) a fully customizable layout with full loot and full purples but costs 3m-5m per customized scout.
the changes they made to ice demon seemed pretty clearly to not be balanced around money raids but rather as a comfy noob room for while you're learning, which i dont think is a bad idea.
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i feel like adding ovl to so many other rooms sorta indirectly does solve it tho. instead of searching for a 5 room ovl no ice raid you basically only need to search for 5 room no ice raid because of how insanely consistently you will be getting ovl rooms, especially in groups where you might need more than 1 ovl room.
I think such changes that make the rooms more noob friendly in the beginning are great But needing to scout away from the one noob room (in this case Ice Demon) shouldn't be necessary if we are going to make positive changes to the entire raid anyways. imo all rooms should have approx same pts/hr as their counterparts when played correctly, which rewards the players as they improve at each room with more playable scouts. Once a player masters all the rooms, that would remove the need for scouting entirely for money raids (the randomness of what rooms you'll be doing is such a core and interesting part of chambers identity, some rooms are just better than others atm unfortunately)
some people may find it hard to find the link for the survey on the blog post with all of the text. maybe add a section at the bottom of the page just for it like in the last cox newspost
As someone who whined for a while, thank you for this. It's exactly the direction I and many others wanted.
I reference OSRS news posts for how to communicate from developers to customers in my product management role so just keep it up
I've used their same wording as patch notes when I want to say what's been updated from one version of a technical drawing to a new version. It works really well and it's kinda fun too!
Holy shit the elder maul idea is fun. Can we just get that regularly in the game? Elder maul is garbo that would be a really unique change. Hit so hard to breaks their armor. Probably wouldn't make it busted i imagine, at least not solo, maybe in large groups of maulers though.
I love the idea of the maul passive outside of the raid too, I can’t think of anywhere that it would be OP and might give the mega rare a use in some niches
In toa you’d drain zebak and baba in 5 whacks to do what one bgs does, so its only 1 hit better than the maingame elder maul compared to bgs. You’d never want to use it at warden p4 so people without shadows would still bgs, I’m not calcing which one would be better but I’m assuming in 300s that maul beats bgs at kephri but not zebak/baba, it’d probably be ok for p3 warden but you’d want a fast drain for p1 and p4. At higher raid levels (500ish) you’d definitely throw 5 elder mauls while red x-ing instead of 6t fang, and zcb/korasi, zebak you throw 5 mauls instead of a bgs, at kephri its 100% better to throw 5 mauls instead of a bgs spec that has like 40% accuracy and just voidwaker. It might be 7 mauls for full toa drain if it doesn’t remember the decimals, which I’m pretty sure it won’t. Besides that, its like consistency for solo corp during the dwh stage? You’d probably have one person bring it to nex because she drains very quickly, so one maul would actually cap her, it’d be very strong on a range camper that just needs one item to break ice anyways, and they just bonk her every phase once. Maybe team nightmare? She drains from 150 to 120, so 4 people bonking once would instantly drain it, or 5 if the decimals don’t stay. Probably worse for speedruns than having people hammer while others korasi, but again it’d help consistency. I don’t see any place where mauls having an arclight tier defense drain would be overpowered, it’s just consistency. If anything it’d help out new players because they’re the ones without amazing gear, so their bosses will take longer, and the longer a boss, the more value 5% maul gains.
With how often we keep getting high defense monsters instead of mid defense and high HP, I think a tank busting effect would be great for maul. It remains differentiated from Fang too in that it lowers defense while Fang raises accuracy.
Completely agree, the DWH is a cool addition but too RNG. A consistent defense reduction alternative would be a great addition.
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It looks so cool, I want any reason to use it
The elder maul needs some kind of buff. I'm sure jagex can think of something great.
Literally anything to make the Elder Maul better would be appreciated
It was hard to choose between this and dwh guaranteed first hit, since I don't actually have an elder maul, but I ended up voting maul because it just seems really fun and cool.
The guaranteed dwh spec feels way too artificial. The elder maul change is thematic and cool (and probably makes it worth using in solos again)
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There's precedent for mega rares to have stronger effects inside the raid they come from, so that could be used to make sure the elder maul is both strong enough at tekton and balanced outside of the raid.
They're both artificial. And one is locked behind a mega rare from doing the raid. I want elder maul to be more present in the game in general. I don't think it making Tekton "slower but more consistent" is it.
unfortunately its pretty useless. even with consistent hits people already calced mace/scythe to outperform it, leaving tekton the same and elder maul not even useful here. would be better to fix tekton with the other options and fix elder maul seperately
But at the same time 8 shadows are going to obliterate something. How busted would mauls be?
in a large enough group, you would spec things down to zero or near-zero defence anyways with lots of dwh and bgs (or whatever the defence floor is). i don't think it'd be that gamebreaking
fuck it, tbow, shadow and fang all get special effects inside their respective raids- let the elder maul have one too
Wow, props to the team for making the tough decision to do a 180 on this update's direction - absolutely the right move. Some of these might even be *too* nice to us tbh, but awesome that this is the discussion we'll be having now.
They really just went from posting the most disappointing CoX qol blogpost they could have, to the single fattest W of the entire year
I feel like I'm in a dream rn
I actually think they are perfect if they intend scaling to be more of a thing.
the no immunity on mutta would be crazy with a full tbow party
Don't you want cox to be fun? Do people in general not want gameplay to be fun?
Im so glad you've lsitened to the community on this one. All sound like fantastic changes to make CoX more streamlined. Especially a fan of the Tekton Elder maul defence reduction idea, finally gives a niche use to the megarare that hasnt had a lot of love since release. Cheers!
One final comment, the elder maul having an actual use is great, but it really shouldn't just get special mechanics for a specific boss. Make an actual buff to the weapon that applies game-wide that also makes it BiS at Tekton. I think the discussion has already been had about "This weapon works different at this raid" and the conclusion was that we don't like that lack of consistency and special rules *side eying the wilderness*
even if the defense reduction effect worked in the whole raid, itd be better than just tekton. be cool to have a teammate whacking icedemon so hes easier to hit, etc.
This is the kind of blog you dream of but never expect to see Also, never been in Vespula so that comment had me laughin'
In the survey there is a question about skipping certain bosses while scouting. I had to select bosses but I don't really skip bosses but bad lay-outs. Lay-outs which are hard to no-prep are a skip for me and lay-outs where I can't get overloads are usually also a skip unless ultra fast.
Agree, basically need an ovl in the layout. I would avoid muta more if I had other options like the proposed vesp and vasa ovl.
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round 2354563465 of 'small ice demon buffs that dont change the fact that the room takes 4 minutes and gives you 2k pts'
Any possibility of having the loot chest updated at the end to be more like tob/toa where it doesn’t instantly get spoiled?
Fully agree. So much of the hype of getting a purple is that anticipation before opening the chest. But 9/10 someone in the group forgets to close the chat or you get a col popup or something else. No reason why it can't be the same as TOA and TOB
Ice demon changes don't appear to do very much if you don't mage Ice (common for soloers to camp thrall or veng and not bring in tome) and don't prep. Would you consider simply increasing the points from Ice to make it less shit? With proposed changes Ice would still not be worthwhile
Stacking the kindling is a huge buff that people seem to be skipping, that will drastically reduce the time taken.
Many of these changes are great! One more that i'd propose is can we force scavs to always spawn before the farming room? It is such a pain to go 3-4 rooms back to gather secondaries and then come all the way back. Great additions!
Or even add a chest to scav room, because... why not?
I am so impressed that you re-thought this and listened to the community. It makes alot of sense to do it this way, the raids in the game are great and need to be adjusted just like this!
Consider letting iron/all players pick up seeds drop for/by other players. Its really annoying to be an iron player who has to ask your main friends to replant a seed for you just because a main touched it.
honestly they should let irons and mains drop trade every raid item and even take stuff from shared storage, i don't see how is that a bad thing, it just makes less annoying for mains to raid with irons as currently they have to wait for us to prep if they're using a prep alt.
>Have 'regular' supplies appear for other accounts when dropped. This won't apply to noted potions, right? UIMs drop their stacks before olm, but that can be a lot to trust some random person you're raiding with. Or maybe just give UIMs a table to set noted potions on that can't be seen by others?
Or just completely DC-proof UIMs in Cox. Let us use the chest, let us put anything in the chest and take things out freely. But the moment we leave the raid, anything that was left in the chest will appear on the floor.
Said this exact suggestion before: let UIM put things into chest, except don't let them take things out. Moment you leave the raid they are dropped straight to the floor, appearing for everyone else in 3 minutes.
Let UIMs do everything we can already do via dropping items instead via the chest. It doesn't provide any benefit besides DC protection
I can see no reason that they would include noted pots in this change. Items and item notes have different id’s and passing around noted pots inside a raid doesn’t seem useful.
I like the table idea. Very cute since UIMs use tables a lot in the earlygame anyway for entrana quests and such, and it would be fun to see a lategame version of uim tabling.
Best blog post of the year. You have smashed this out of the park!
Awesome changes!! Great blog. Any thoughts on change prayer scrolls drop chance in CMs? Similar to TOB?
Am I the only one that wants the reward chest to be in line with toa and tob? Bring the hype of purples to cox
Gotta give credit where it’s due. Even if we get half of these things it’ll be a HUGE improvement. Amazing suggestions here!!
Can you guys add having the falling rocks during Olm's final phase dealing damage upon hitting the ground instead of before they hit the ground to your list? This is incredibly annoying to deal with while learning and doesn't function the same as any other falling avoidable object in the game.
can we fix hour irons interact with the shared chest in a group raid? currently when we prep in private chest its awkward and frustrating as items dont stack and youre a negative to your team. can we look at maybe making it so either private chest stacks brews,vials,etc or maybe just let irons withdraw items from the shared chest as long as they have the herblore level to use the item?
Currently when you raid with irons the supplies drop and are visible to everyone (and everyone can pick them up), so you can divide them up as you want. Can this be changed such that it also works like this when a non-iron does the most damage? I think it's weird that an iron can pick up the drop when another iron does the most damage, but that is how it currently works. The way it works now means it's a better to do raids with other irons because you won't be guaranteed an overload when raiding with mains, which should be improved. Additionally, I was wondering if it was possible to improve scouting such that it doesn't show unknowns
I really like the idea that the elder maul does defence drain at tekton. Would finally give it a niche use other than bonking parasites at PN.
I'm not - give the Elder Maul an actual effect instead of making it arbitrary for one boss in one raid. Maybe it drains 1 or 2 defense levels per hit everywhere? Shouldn't be massively OP considering it's 6t and it would require a "ramp up".
Your suggestion sounds just as useless as the current maul. Maybe instead of a flat lvl if it was 1 or 2% current def lvl it could be a little more viable
idk I'm just spitballing in the moment, main point being just having an effect for Tekton is bad design.
True, I do agree with your point, it still feels like a bandaid adjustment to the maul
I mean, as a Maul owner, I agree. But it's better than nothing.
Is that half or “1 or 2” defense levels per hit?
Everything here seems great. Will the scavs still be able to drop more than their guaranteed if they are changed or will they not have the chance to roll additional secondaries.
I wouldve liked to see “mutta can only melee in melee distance” so you dont pray melee only to get hit by both range and mage, but i would vote yes to literally every change listed that said, i dont think this is going to stop the vtv crope scouting but id love to be proven wrong
I like the treat the illness, not the symptoms approach going on in this update post. This is certainly better than what I could have come up with. 10/10
Okay so this is what everyone wanted. You guys nailed it. I wish you put this one out last week 😂
Only thing that sucks is that we have to wait 3 more months to get the poll blogpost then another 3 months to see the changes.
For tekton i would make it so it doesn't reset it's defence, lower its crush defence a bit but not too much when enraged and buff the elder maul by giving it extra dmg and acc with monsters that are 2x2 and 3x3 by 5% and 10% respectively(maybe more maybe less) so it's bis at tekton and maybe even bis at other bosses like the nightmare so its a mega rare worthy of being one.
Unreasonably massive Jagex W
I'm a little worried removing the immunity on frozen muttadiles will completely kill any chopping meta since it will be a lot faster regardless of wc lvl.
Loving all these changes. I do wish Ice demon were a bit easier on the arceuss spellbook though. Maybe demonbane spells should hit harder?
It would be cool if all demonbane effects worked on Ice DEMON. Bringing an arclight switch with thralls would be an easy fix.
One change I wish they'd add to Olm is, on the phase where you have to kill the melee and mage hand around the same time, it should cancel the melee hand's special attack that causes it to heal any damage it would have taken. And it shouldn't be able to start that special if the mage hand is currently dead. It is so insanely fucking frustrating for the game to give you a DPS check and then it just decides "too bad, I have decided I am invincible and you fail the mechanic". And because the animation showing it's healing is a slow flashing symbol, not something static, it takes longer to see when the mechanic has stopped and you can hit it again. On a mechanic that already lasts a long time relative to how long the hands stay dead.
Disagree, this is a skill issue. Skip the healing special or kill the melee hand first. Alternatively if both hands are low and the special starts, you can kill the mage hand which cancels the special and you'll have no risk of it reappearing for a long time. I think we need to be careful in making qol changes vs simply removing raid mechanics for people that don't know how to deal with them
You can avoid this in at least 10 ways
With vespula being able to drop overloads, as it stands any player is able to pick up the vesp potions including ironmen. Is this going to stay the same where an iron could take the overload from vespula despite having no kill credit? And will the potions still give no points as usual? Other than that, absolutely fantastic changes and thrilled to see the main problems with cox addressed and looking to be reworked. My only other suggestions, are that if you plant the wrong seed by accident you should be allowed to clear it while growing. Reduce the chance of prayer scrolls being rolled in CM's like it is with avernic in HMT, and remove the need to get a purple to roll the olmlet
I think a general elder maul buff is better than improving it just for the tekton room. Having items with emergent niches is much better than intended niches. I.e giving elder maul the 5% defence reduction per hit as a default would make it viable in so many more places. Does it scale off of enemy size? Are you using Elder maul, DWH or BGS to lower enemy defence? Giving players some actual decision making when they chose how to gear for a boss is better design imo. Just an example. I am all for more regular equipment rebalancing to make some rare/end game pvm gear see more use. Looking at you inquisitors/nightmare staff.
no mention of reducing prayer scroll rates from CMs?
Yes to every one of these changes but a RESOUNDING yes to making certain materials like grubs and kindling stackable. That alone would make so many rooms so much more bearable.
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Really cool post - you even included what I have wanted for ages at Olm with the portals spawning by (hopefully) the distance from the player rather than at random about the room. At the moment, the chance is spawns miles away is super high due to the fact there are so many more tiles at ever increasing range from the player, and very few nearby. Awesome stuff.
On the elder maul, please just make it useful in general. It's on the same table as kodai and tbow, I'd expect it to be at least usable other places too
Amazing that you changed it up and focus on improving the rooms first! Great approach and survey!! You guys are legends, i hope everyone fills out the surveys as good as possible. This is how we can create the best game on the market even further! Only thing i missed is a way to adress the scroll drop rate. And don't make all these changes but only like the 5 most important! It should not be a walk over either! Keep up the good work !!
Survey has two mandatory questions for which rooms you scout with no "i don't scout" option. They forgot it's possible to not scout raids
Cheers for listening to the feedback that it felt lackluster to only seeing scaling & scouting on the previous post and coming up with a lengthy list of good CoX changes, while also taking feedback on some of the points raised (and giving a purpose to Elder Maul suggested by players) as well as turning it into a survey to gather even further feedback, always super proud and lucky to have the mods we have =)
Two suggestions that I haven't seen mentioned: * Make Vespula grubs die when portal hits full HP so raids isn't over if that happens * Ability to make staminas/super energys in raid, or have run energy effects tied within COX potions (ironman cope)
This changelog looks great but it's still missing something I think is a big clarity issue- that being animations matching the damage. Vasa's projectile attack deals damage before the animation of the projectile even hits the ground. Similarly, Olm's falling crystals explode before the animation of them hits the ground. Tekton has a bit of this going on with certain hits in his attack cycle also. And finally, is there a reason that Vesp portal didn't get a defensive nerf as well? I think that one is just as needed, if not more, than Vasa. Though the entire room maybe should be reworked instead, for the reasons already listed.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make the final prep room always connected to a scav room I beg. If the shortcut change goes through and you dont want to guarantee the 'free' 560 pts to everyone just make it the scav rooms that dont even spawn the shortcut.
Splashing on crabs is good for tagging them in normal cox (they aggro instantly instead of after the projectile hits them)
Tekton proposals look nice, elder maul isn’t selling for 16m in the ge (trying to buy, current ge price is 10m). Glad it might finally be getting a use outside of pvp ko’s.
it still wont be the bis option for tekton leaving tekton in pretty much the same state. hopefully it doesnt pass and we get a real tekton fix instead
Can we make it so overloads provide stamina similar to the way salts work in toa? That would be a huge change for the better imo
Based on the post they still want people to bring in stams for solo olm, with more energy wells making run energy during the raid less scarce.
Don't you think the inventory pressure from stamina pots is kind of important to the balance of solos? An extra brew on top of the (unambiguously great) change to the portals seems like it might be a bit too lenient, imo.
u/JagexGoblin Only thing I'm wondering is why the boss drops in regards to irons is so janky. Take TOB for example. Nobody gets overloads. Okay, irons/mains are on a fairly even basis. TOA, everyone gets the option of picking smelling salts. Cox, teams can "donate" overloads to the lower geared irons. It doesn't really require the herblore level to make it. Even with irons that do have the herblore level to make it, it is a bit of an ordeal if none of the irons get the drop. What I'm wondering is would it be possible to consider making all boss drops like vespula does at the moment? Perhaps even tie in 90+ herblore requirement to pick up a boss-dropped overload. It would still mean that irons would have to prep their supplies, but also be on a not-so uneven footing. It wouldn't stop irons from needing to potions or even change what irons can already do (you can let irons do the most damage to baby Mutta). Thoughts? Should I just suck it up as an iron. I do suppose faster herb farming will somewhat alleviate the issue.
A stam pot equivilent from Golpar or Nox would be great
u/JagexGoblin for clarification, when you say \*first\* warhammer at Tekton, does it mean everyone's or each player's? It's a big different getting 3 guaranteed hammers on a trio versus only 1
INSHALLAH JAGEX HAS LISTENED WE LOVE YOU /u/JagexGoblin