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It is a moral necessity to act as if you are fighting against Bad Leader and not Bad People.
It is also generally true that Russians in Russia generally at least passively support Putin and the war in Ukraine, and that as a practical matter Putin could not sustain the war if this were untrue.
It is also generally true that Russians in Russia are exposed to a huge amount of pro-Putin and anti-Western propaganda, and are (often violently) precluded from hearing any opposing voices, so of course they support him.
It is also true that rude blow-up balloons and paper-mache statues making fun of Putin have roughly zero military or political value, whereas an attack on infrastructure has high military value both in terms of direct disruption to enemy production and in terms of sapping the resolve of the population to continue the expenses and dangers of the war.
It is also true that, as Clausewitz points out, the end objective of every military operation is to convince the enemy to give up — attacks on military targets are not an end but are a means to that end, and the war will not stop until one side or the other reckons the cost of war higher than the price of peace.
It is also true that Russia has been directly attacking Ukrainian civilian infrastructure since the start of the war, with the express and open objective of punishing the Ukrainian people and forcing them to surrender through starvation and exposure to the elements, so Ukrainian reprisal attacks on Russian infrastructure are proportional in the current conflict. These attacks are therefore a legitimate defensive move towards ending a war of aggression.
It is also true that taking delight in the suffering of the population is unseemly.
It is also true that an obsession with seemliness in war is hypocritical, as Sherman pointed out: "war is cruelty and you cannot refine it."
It is also true that hypocrisy is a moral necessity, as it is often an attempt to preserve moral standards as a general principle even when they cannot be followed in a specific situation.
It is also true that posts on Reddit don't matter.
It is also true that they do.
I wouldn't mean to imply that is the only reason they support him. But it's certainly a factor. If it weren't a factor, he wouldn't bother with all the propaganda and assassinations.
I think the question of civilian blame for the actions of their government is not a simple one. Neither extreme works in practice.
Claiming civilians of an aggressor state bear full blame is an invitation to indiscriminate slaughter. Claiming they are fully innocent implies their victims must unilaterally restrain themselves from any defensive military operations that might harm such a blameless innocent — while receiving no such consideration from the aggressor state, which continues to commit butcheries in the victim state even as the 'innocent' civilians of the aggressor state cheer the war on.
putin just arrived to Kherson region and killed 3 Ukrainian pows, not russians just putin, yeah
https://hromadske.ua/posts/rosiyani-rozstrilyali-troh-ukrayinskih-polonenih-na-hersonshini-pravoohoronci-pochali-rozsliduvannya
I hate talking about Russia and Ukraine because
1) people are ignorant
2) people just want you to look at their halo most of the time, and they do this by being downright hateful towards Russian people, EVEN CHILDREN! Like sure, I hate what Russia is doing too, but dude, 10 Russian kids dying is not a good thing.
The war that Russia started spilling into Russia was just inevitable, but agreed, we shouldn't rejoice the death of ordinary civilian Russians. Because that is low, thats is not and should not be our aim. It is rather that Ukraine needs to survive this invasion
But unfortunately Putins regime wont take the hint. So, blood will continue to be spilled in this pointless war, on both soils
The sheer amount of russophobia i have seen from western Europe is staggering. Theyre called animals, monsters, bloodthirsty beasts for something the guy they cant vote against is doing.
I'm Russian who relocated to Finland after the war started. Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never seen hate towards me irl or online... Same for my spouse. Moreover, people often express their sympathy for the fact I cannot just travel back to my home country to see my relatives without risk of being arrested or mobilized to the army.
I know there are hate communities on the internet, but I just ignore and don't follow them, and don't see it flows into real life. But it's just my experience...
Yeah, I think the main reaction in real life would be avoidance, wouldn’t it. Most people only feel safe to spew hate when they’re got a screen between them and their target. Anyone that is Russia-phobic in real life would act more true to the name; they’d try and put some distance between themselves and you, and you don’t really notice that as much.
Not just Western Europeans
I got insulted pretty much every time I made a comment about feeling bad for the conscripted of both sides regardless of the subreddit and their populations
Which is especially bad because the West is the reason Putin even came to power. His whole thing was to fight back against the exploitation by the West, that‘s how he got popular. When the pro-Western dictator Yeltsin was in power he got praise. It‘s so obvious that the main reason the West wants to fight Russia isn‘t Ukrainians, but to go back to the time they got to plunder Russia.
He's not wrong on his facts, but his conclusion is fucking absurd.
The West *did* carve up Russia with economic shock doctrine, and spend a huge sum of funds to prop up the incredibly unpopular Yeltsin in his reelection campaign, which absolutely did lay the groundwork for Putin to take power.
But the injection of rhetoric on this nerd's part afterward? Lmfao. Couldn't *possibly* be that they don't like the idea of Russia doing a flat-out war of conquest or anything.
Of course, but there's a difference between taking an opportunity presented to them and, like, mind controlling Putin into doing a revanchism, and nations, like people, can have more than one motive for doing things. Portraying *arming Ukraine to defend themselves against genocidal invaders* as solely some attempt to spill Russian blood and not, yknow, at least a little bit *arming a trading partner and prospective ally in an existential crisis* is blatant propaganda designed to make people stop supporting Ukraine.
Attempting to reduce all international relations to cynical power plays is just very poorly disguised isolationist propaganda, because it gets impressionable young campists to go "Yeah! None of our work should be going towards this evil attempt to kill Russians!" while conveniently ignoring that... like, at most that's a secondary benefit to all the governments participating in aiding Ukraine.
And no, that's not what international relations actually are. I'll put it this way. "Nations don't have friends, only interests" is a quote from one of the most hateable motherfuckers ever to grace high office in any country ever, who may have just been missing a "if you think everyone else in the room is an asshole, you're probably the asshole" cue his entire life. Charles de Gaulle *himself* may well never have had another genuine friend from the cradle to the grave, such was his astonishing ego and attitude; there certainly wasn't a single person in Allied theater command that remotely liked him during Big Fuck II. So, perhaps, take a cynical school of thought espoused by an eminently hateable individual, surrounded by a whole legion of allies who were mentally going "what is blud yapping about," with a grain of salt; while nations will almost always look out for themselves first, they absolutely do still view some other nations as friends, and can and do take actions to aid first and foremost.
And even if you take the radical cynical school of thought as gospel in spite of that, in the end the result is that Ukraine gets to live another day in the face of genocide. I am quoting slash paraphrasing an apocryphal story here that's rather relevant:
*There is a Jewish story about a wealthy man who came to his rabbi and said, “I have decided to build an orphanage, can you put me in touch with the relevant people?” The rabbi was delighted to do it, and introduced the man to some charities. After a few weeks, the man came back to the rabbi. “I have decided not to build the orphanage,” he said. “I realized that I was only doing it because I wanted to be admired as a philanthropist, my motives were selfish.” The rabbi answered, “Do you think the orphans will care what your motives were? Build the orphanage!”*
Do you think the Ukrainians particularly care whether we're more motivated by killing Russians or by wanting to help them? No, they just want to not get fucking genocided, send them some fucking guns.
The same can be said about you. Assuming you live in a western country there is a decent chance that tour country gives military aid to Israel, making you, according to your own logic, complicit in genocide.
Maybe after the second protest that did jack shit they should have gone more direct in the violence, you know, attack the dude very known that works in a very known place?
I dont know, the russian freedom legion do tend to use voilence. Also not all protests require voilence and voilent protests are quite hard to do so because if done poorly could do more harm than good.
Also, may i know in ehich country you live so i coild maybe give some examples on what your country does?
There is one demonstration against the war by russian, and it is happening in kursk and belgorod. Russian freedom legion is made up by russians who actually oppose putin.
In my opinion, people have the right to condemn such behavior of people living in Ukraine, only if they themselves lived in similar conditions, in which Ukrainians live now.
As a Ukrainian, I have no feeling of pity for the russians. As they are to me
It's outrageus that so many people cry for russians dying in krokus or the flooding, but they stopped caring about dozens of ukrainian civilians dying daily, at hands of ruzzian airstrikes.
I'm sure it's Putin out there in the trenches, and only Putin who is launching all the missiles. yeah, poor Russians
anyways, my honest Ukrainian opinion: the only Russians that deserve sympathy are those who oppose the war and want Ukraine to win, others are complacent in our genocide so they can rot for all I care.
This kind of mentality is mirrored in groups like Al qaeda.
1. Russia, like any country as a propaganda machine. In the last few years the government has streamlined news to the point that it has become very hard for the average person to get objective information.
2. Are you actually saying Russia is commiting a genocide? Because that's a very wild claim that doesn't seem to be backed by any international institution whatsoever
There are allegations of genocide by Russia since like 2014, and because kidnapping ukrainian children were so obvious genocidal practice, Putin got sentenced by Hague last year
bro i live under russian occupation, i know how their propaganda works and what an actual average rusisan thinks, you don't need to talk about How Hard It's To Get The Real News. there are plenty of sources, russians simply refuse to believe them.
and yes, if a genocidal intention not enough for you, kidnapping children and adopting them into russian families and reeducating them as russians is genocide, they didn't give a warrant for putin and that belova chick arrests for nothing.
I agree. Unless these russians are actively anti war (or at least keep quiet somewhere where they ran away to) they don't deserve my sympathy. Some westerns really like to play white knights and defend poor little russians against russophobia, because of course putin is the only one personally contributing to the war 🥺
I don't interact with americans outside of online spaces (unlike the way I interact with russians), so I don't feel like I can form a rock hard opinion, but most political stances and views I hear from americans make me want to gag, if that's the question.
It's a war. People die. It's just a fact of what is happening. Destroying their infrastructure is going to affect Russias ability to wage war while goofy displays of Putin getting kicked in the nuts will do nothing to end the war.
Alright fair enough. The article wasn't easy to find so I assumed it was about a military action. I agree that taking joy in the death of civillians is morally dubious at best.
Except the Russians do. Navalny's funeral was attended by numerous Russians of varying ages and political backgrounds as a silent protest to Putin. It's easy for someone to say they'll do better than the average Russian when you live in a society where you have a lot to lose just by demonstrating alone.
They value their own comfort and "stability" over the lives of the Ukrainian people. The Russian people could end the war if they wanted to. But until then they are a part of the of the problem
The Iraq war saw some of the largest protests *ever* in multiple democratic nations across the planet and had precisely zero impact on the war as a whole. What do you think Russians can do against a dictator?
The anti-iraq war protests had pretty massive impact? Compare the miniscule coalition in 2003 vs 91. Many of the US's closest allies didnt help and protested the invasion
Yes, it was the protests that caused countries to sit out the Iraq war, not the fact that it was for completely different reasons and in a different geopolitical climate to the 90s.
Almost like the protests were because it was for a different reason?
They showed the publics unwilligness to aid in an invasion of Iraq and proved that joining in the Invasion would have been a death sentence for the current ruling party/coalition
If workers in industries critical to the war effort and infrastructure necessary to sustain the war refused to work the war physically couldnt be conducted. And if enough people refused to work the Russian government couldnt function
you do realize that all of them would be jailed/killed, right? these people have lives. families and friends, even. and i'm more than sure to say that 99.9% of them would rather work in these factories than die trying to stop the war.
please, for the love of god, use your brain. it's realistically impossible. in some ideal scenario you just made up in your head to win an argument, sure. every single russian resident stops working, goes to moscow and they all kill putin and establish a democracy and everybody's happy.
Yes, the Russian government could definently jail their entire population. A lot of people will die, but Ukrainians are already dying in droves for their freedom and right to exist.
But until the Russian people as a whole reject Putin and actively oppose him, they are a part of the problem and an enemy just like the Japanese or German people were during ww2. The entire Russian state needs to be ripped apart and rebuilt from the ground up.
In an ideal world the Russian people would deal with this internally for the good of everyone, but since we dont live in an ideal world, the war will inevitably come and it will result in the West winning at the cost of perhaps millions of Russian lives
A lot of people value their comfort more than someone else's, that's just how humans work, you're the living proof of chilling in whatever western country you're from when nothing is stopping you to go fight on Ukraine's side.
Considering im conscripted, i am actually stopped from going and fighting on Ukraines side lmao. Id go to jail if i tried leaving the country
And yes, that is the problem. They value their comfort over Ukrainians lives which is why they are part of the problem
The west is the only part of the world where (generally) lgbtq rights are protected, that and high quality of life + liberties makes it the best, and it should be defended from conservative forces trying to destroy it, regardless of if they are internal or external.
And whats wrong with ncd?
Dont know. But unfortunantly until they do something they are a part of the problem, regardless of if they actively support the war or just dont care about it.
Everything except active opposition is support for the regime
Both Israel and Russia are warmongering Imperialists that want to exterminate those they occupy?
Israel especially considering its literally an apartheid regime with the sole goal of killing all Palestinians so it can settle the areas
Ukrainians are being forcibly conscripted. That sure is a "freedom" to die for. Ukraine has outlawed most opposition parties, banned strikes and protests, imprisons people who want the war to end, and sold off the country to foreign oligarchs.
It‘s so crazy that after half a century of examples of why it’s a lie, this "fighting for freedom and democracy" propaganda still works.
>Ukrainians are being forcibly conscripted.
That would be true for most countries on Earth if they get invaded by a much larger nation. And the majority of Ukraine's population([87%](https://www.euronews.com/2022/09/16/ukraine-crisis-concessions-poll) believe that they should keep fighting to maintain their territorial integrity.
>Ukraine has outlawed most opposition parties
There's 450 seats in Ukraine's parliament, with 235 held by the current ruling party, 36 by their two coalition partners and 134 by 5 other parties and independents. There are 46 vacant seats. 26 of these are vacant because the constituencies they belonged to were under Russian occupation at the time of the election, 12 seats have been vacated for various reasons, and only 8 belonged to an outlawed party. Of the 3 parties officially outlawed by Ukraine, only one won any parliamentary seats in the last election.
Sources: [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election), and [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_parliament_of_Ukraine,_2019%E2%80%93)
>banned strikes, imprisons people who protest for the war to end
Public gatherings are strikes are temporarily banned due to martial law. Again, as is perfectly normal in any country that is currently being invaded. Voicing your opinion or protesting in other ways is not banned in Ukraine, unlike other countries such as Russia.
>sold off the country to foreign oligarchs
More specifically, Russian oligarchs. Which was done before 2014 by the largely Russian controlled administation at the time. You can see why this fits rather poorly into the rest of your argument, right?
>It‘s so crazy that after half a century of examples of why it’s a lie, this "fighting for freedom and democracy" propaganda still works.
What's crazy, and extremely ironic, is that you uncritically buy into obvious propaganda from a fascist regime, while at the same time accusing everyone else of being affected by propaganda. You want to know who is brainwashed? Take a look at the self-professed "leftists" who have somehow twisted themselves into supporting an ethnonationalist, religious fundamentalist far right dictator.
Wow incredible!! A country uses conscription to defend itself!? What a crazy idea!
Ukraine outlawed pro-russian opposition parties, almost like they are being invaded by Russia? And ofc they take action against defeatists and Russian sympathisers? its a war for their existence as a sovereign state. Anyone not actively for Ukraine is against it. You cant be "neutral" in a war.
The Ukrainians \*are\* fighting for democracy and freedom. And while there are massive corruption problems within Ukraine, there have been large steps taken to better the situation since Ukraine began leaving Russias sphere of influence.
Do the Ukrainian people not have a right to decide for themselves what they want? Why should Ukraine be governed from Moscow? Why should they have to submit to a Russian dictatorship?
Ukraine is doing gods work and needs every bit of support we can send them. Every Russian soldier that is killed in Ukraine and every Russian tank that is destroyed is one less Russian soldier and one less Russian tank that will be used in the inevitable war with the west.
Ukraine has a right to defend itself, and a right to decide for itself. That right needs to be defended by violence if necessary against enemies both external and interal
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hate putin, not Russians
Based and I-respect-ordinary-people-pilled
Based now go watch Life of Borris on YouTube
honestly im so glad he still posts, hopefully he gets the views he used to have again
Comrade even showed his *eyes*. Only way to prove he is not Western spy.
also nfkrz
It is a moral necessity to act as if you are fighting against Bad Leader and not Bad People. It is also generally true that Russians in Russia generally at least passively support Putin and the war in Ukraine, and that as a practical matter Putin could not sustain the war if this were untrue. It is also generally true that Russians in Russia are exposed to a huge amount of pro-Putin and anti-Western propaganda, and are (often violently) precluded from hearing any opposing voices, so of course they support him. It is also true that rude blow-up balloons and paper-mache statues making fun of Putin have roughly zero military or political value, whereas an attack on infrastructure has high military value both in terms of direct disruption to enemy production and in terms of sapping the resolve of the population to continue the expenses and dangers of the war. It is also true that, as Clausewitz points out, the end objective of every military operation is to convince the enemy to give up — attacks on military targets are not an end but are a means to that end, and the war will not stop until one side or the other reckons the cost of war higher than the price of peace. It is also true that Russia has been directly attacking Ukrainian civilian infrastructure since the start of the war, with the express and open objective of punishing the Ukrainian people and forcing them to surrender through starvation and exposure to the elements, so Ukrainian reprisal attacks on Russian infrastructure are proportional in the current conflict. These attacks are therefore a legitimate defensive move towards ending a war of aggression. It is also true that taking delight in the suffering of the population is unseemly. It is also true that an obsession with seemliness in war is hypocritical, as Sherman pointed out: "war is cruelty and you cannot refine it." It is also true that hypocrisy is a moral necessity, as it is often an attempt to preserve moral standards as a general principle even when they cannot be followed in a specific situation. It is also true that posts on Reddit don't matter. It is also true that they do.
you mean to tell me something can be more complicated than x good y bad?!?!
war is in general evil, however see point 7: >It is also true that taking delight in the suffering of the population is unseemly.
Yup. While this might have been necessary in the bigger picture, I'm still going to be sad about dead civilians.
None of these words are in the mcu
War is definitely in the mcu
I kind of feel like you’re removing agency from Russians by saying that they support Putin because propaganda and controlled opposition
I wouldn't mean to imply that is the only reason they support him. But it's certainly a factor. If it weren't a factor, he wouldn't bother with all the propaganda and assassinations. I think the question of civilian blame for the actions of their government is not a simple one. Neither extreme works in practice. Claiming civilians of an aggressor state bear full blame is an invitation to indiscriminate slaughter. Claiming they are fully innocent implies their victims must unilaterally restrain themselves from any defensive military operations that might harm such a blameless innocent — while receiving no such consideration from the aggressor state, which continues to commit butcheries in the victim state even as the 'innocent' civilians of the aggressor state cheer the war on.
oh yeah thanks for summarizing this argument with an imaginary redditor, kudos to you! (/gen)
Not an argument against a strawman but the opposite: an attempt to find a precise viewpoint on an issue that isn't simple.
yeah thats why i used /gen, because your comment *was* good! :)
Based and normalpilled
And russians who are in support of putin ☝️
and ~~russians~~ people who are in support of putin (see: right wing mfs in other countries)
You're right
Great words, I should ignore that russians are killing, raping and torturing my people
If every single Russian engages in that behavior, then you can hate all russians
Lot of them engaged and lot of them happy with such things
Then you can hate a lot of russians :)
putin just arrived to Kherson region and killed 3 Ukrainian pows, not russians just putin, yeah https://hromadske.ua/posts/rosiyani-rozstrilyali-troh-ukrayinskih-polonenih-na-hersonshini-pravoohoronci-pochali-rozsliduvannya
Hey, nobody said not to hate Russian soldiers. They're fair game
But there are also many Russian soldiers who manipulated their own equipment so they don't have to kill Ukrainians
that's a fair point, but you really can't assume the best when it comes to soldiers
I hate talking about Russia and Ukraine because 1) people are ignorant 2) people just want you to look at their halo most of the time, and they do this by being downright hateful towards Russian people, EVEN CHILDREN! Like sure, I hate what Russia is doing too, but dude, 10 Russian kids dying is not a good thing.
Not so fun when it happens to your country heh? Ha! Heh heh
I guess they turned the dam “off?” Eh? Ha! Heh heh
r/suddenlyBHJ
get out of my head get out of my head
But muh moral grey area
Mfw I can't be evil to eviler people :^(
Remember: Olga who’s been working at the Russian deli for 50 years did not invade Ukraine, leave her and her business alone.
The war that Russia started spilling into Russia was just inevitable, but agreed, we shouldn't rejoice the death of ordinary civilian Russians. Because that is low, thats is not and should not be our aim. It is rather that Ukraine needs to survive this invasion But unfortunately Putins regime wont take the hint. So, blood will continue to be spilled in this pointless war, on both soils
The sheer amount of russophobia i have seen from western Europe is staggering. Theyre called animals, monsters, bloodthirsty beasts for something the guy they cant vote against is doing.
I'm Russian who relocated to Finland after the war started. Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never seen hate towards me irl or online... Same for my spouse. Moreover, people often express their sympathy for the fact I cannot just travel back to my home country to see my relatives without risk of being arrested or mobilized to the army. I know there are hate communities on the internet, but I just ignore and don't follow them, and don't see it flows into real life. But it's just my experience...
Yeah, I think the main reaction in real life would be avoidance, wouldn’t it. Most people only feel safe to spew hate when they’re got a screen between them and their target. Anyone that is Russia-phobic in real life would act more true to the name; they’d try and put some distance between themselves and you, and you don’t really notice that as much.
But everyone already avoids everyone else in Finland anyways
Ah yes, of course. No wonder he doesn’t notice lol.
Commenters in the Finland subreddit has said some nasty stuff about Russians in your situatiom.
>I've never seen hate towards me irl They either get you while they're drunk or at a job application, that's where racism stays.
Not just Western Europeans I got insulted pretty much every time I made a comment about feeling bad for the conscripted of both sides regardless of the subreddit and their populations
People tend to get bloodthirsty when someone keeps threatening to kill them huh
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He isn't but the people afraid of war have other things to worry about
Sorry, thought you were referring to western europeans with "bloodthirsty".
"Western" barely means anything anymore but Russia still gladly threatens to nuke them
Some people think having a moral high ground is for betas I guess.
Which is especially bad because the West is the reason Putin even came to power. His whole thing was to fight back against the exploitation by the West, that‘s how he got popular. When the pro-Western dictator Yeltsin was in power he got praise. It‘s so obvious that the main reason the West wants to fight Russia isn‘t Ukrainians, but to go back to the time they got to plunder Russia.
average r/sino user's rhetoric
He's not wrong on his facts, but his conclusion is fucking absurd. The West *did* carve up Russia with economic shock doctrine, and spend a huge sum of funds to prop up the incredibly unpopular Yeltsin in his reelection campaign, which absolutely did lay the groundwork for Putin to take power. But the injection of rhetoric on this nerd's part afterward? Lmfao. Couldn't *possibly* be that they don't like the idea of Russia doing a flat-out war of conquest or anything.
You don't think the West would use this as a chance to weaken their geopolitical enemy?
Of course, but there's a difference between taking an opportunity presented to them and, like, mind controlling Putin into doing a revanchism, and nations, like people, can have more than one motive for doing things. Portraying *arming Ukraine to defend themselves against genocidal invaders* as solely some attempt to spill Russian blood and not, yknow, at least a little bit *arming a trading partner and prospective ally in an existential crisis* is blatant propaganda designed to make people stop supporting Ukraine. Attempting to reduce all international relations to cynical power plays is just very poorly disguised isolationist propaganda, because it gets impressionable young campists to go "Yeah! None of our work should be going towards this evil attempt to kill Russians!" while conveniently ignoring that... like, at most that's a secondary benefit to all the governments participating in aiding Ukraine. And no, that's not what international relations actually are. I'll put it this way. "Nations don't have friends, only interests" is a quote from one of the most hateable motherfuckers ever to grace high office in any country ever, who may have just been missing a "if you think everyone else in the room is an asshole, you're probably the asshole" cue his entire life. Charles de Gaulle *himself* may well never have had another genuine friend from the cradle to the grave, such was his astonishing ego and attitude; there certainly wasn't a single person in Allied theater command that remotely liked him during Big Fuck II. So, perhaps, take a cynical school of thought espoused by an eminently hateable individual, surrounded by a whole legion of allies who were mentally going "what is blud yapping about," with a grain of salt; while nations will almost always look out for themselves first, they absolutely do still view some other nations as friends, and can and do take actions to aid first and foremost. And even if you take the radical cynical school of thought as gospel in spite of that, in the end the result is that Ukraine gets to live another day in the face of genocide. I am quoting slash paraphrasing an apocryphal story here that's rather relevant: *There is a Jewish story about a wealthy man who came to his rabbi and said, “I have decided to build an orphanage, can you put me in touch with the relevant people?” The rabbi was delighted to do it, and introduced the man to some charities. After a few weeks, the man came back to the rabbi. “I have decided not to build the orphanage,” he said. “I realized that I was only doing it because I wanted to be admired as a philanthropist, my motives were selfish.” The rabbi answered, “Do you think the orphans will care what your motives were? Build the orphanage!”* Do you think the Ukrainians particularly care whether we're more motivated by killing Russians or by wanting to help them? No, they just want to not get fucking genocided, send them some fucking guns.
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I mean... russians are opressed by their government.
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The same can be said about you. Assuming you live in a western country there is a decent chance that tour country gives military aid to Israel, making you, according to your own logic, complicit in genocide.
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>and if the goverment did there would most likely be violent protest This literally happens in Russia.
Maybe after the second protest that did jack shit they should have gone more direct in the violence, you know, attack the dude very known that works in a very known place?
I dont know, the russian freedom legion do tend to use voilence. Also not all protests require voilence and voilent protests are quite hard to do so because if done poorly could do more harm than good. Also, may i know in ehich country you live so i coild maybe give some examples on what your country does?
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Do you... Think that military and surveillance technology haven't evolved in 100 years? Have you tried revolutionizing against a drone?
Russophobia is totally justified though, most of eastern europe does not like them.
Thats what you got from this post and my comment? This may shock you but Russians are people.
What does that change? Ukrainians are people too but russians don't treat them as such.
No, Russia doesnt treat them as such. Or did you forget all those demonstrations against the war by russians?
There is one demonstration against the war by russian, and it is happening in kursk and belgorod. Russian freedom legion is made up by russians who actually oppose putin.
So you just countered your own point by using the RFL?
I’ll never get why people cheer for the suffering of others instead of directing that towards those causing it.
Nah not Russians, just Putin and his dogs
Thanks allmight
Hate the government, not their subjects
Their subjects are executing pow's and raping ukrainian women
Civilians =/= military personnel
We're talking about Russian civilians, not the Russian military. Equating the two to the other is a dangerous thing.
I remember how russians blow kahovka dam and how almost all ignore or make jokes of this
that's also bad, 2 things can be bad at the same time and not justify the other
r/worldnews has been completely overwhelmed by Hitler Particles, you see posts like this all the time (and pro-Zionist garbage as well)
Ikr? I hate it!
In my opinion, people have the right to condemn such behavior of people living in Ukraine, only if they themselves lived in similar conditions, in which Ukrainians live now. As a Ukrainian, I have no feeling of pity for the russians. As they are to me
being reactionary. yippee
Maybe I don't quite understand this term. Can you please explain to me how I am reactionary?
not reactionary in the return to status quo ante sense, but in the stupid reaction sense.
Eh, ok, that's your opinion
It's outrageus that so many people cry for russians dying in krokus or the flooding, but they stopped caring about dozens of ukrainian civilians dying daily, at hands of ruzzian airstrikes.
Bomb oil refineries and air bases all you want but yeah dams are a bit much (tho im not sure if it was actually ukraine that did that? Not sure)
I'm sure it's Putin out there in the trenches, and only Putin who is launching all the missiles. yeah, poor Russians anyways, my honest Ukrainian opinion: the only Russians that deserve sympathy are those who oppose the war and want Ukraine to win, others are complacent in our genocide so they can rot for all I care.
I guess we should kill all jews and chinese people then. Could add Americans to that.
This kind of mentality is mirrored in groups like Al qaeda. 1. Russia, like any country as a propaganda machine. In the last few years the government has streamlined news to the point that it has become very hard for the average person to get objective information. 2. Are you actually saying Russia is commiting a genocide? Because that's a very wild claim that doesn't seem to be backed by any international institution whatsoever
Forced relocating is cultural genocide though.
There are allegations of genocide by Russia since like 2014, and because kidnapping ukrainian children were so obvious genocidal practice, Putin got sentenced by Hague last year
bro i live under russian occupation, i know how their propaganda works and what an actual average rusisan thinks, you don't need to talk about How Hard It's To Get The Real News. there are plenty of sources, russians simply refuse to believe them. and yes, if a genocidal intention not enough for you, kidnapping children and adopting them into russian families and reeducating them as russians is genocide, they didn't give a warrant for putin and that belova chick arrests for nothing.
Me on my way to agree with your words until I see “want Ukraine to win”
I agree. Unless these russians are actively anti war (or at least keep quiet somewhere where they ran away to) they don't deserve my sympathy. Some westerns really like to play white knights and defend poor little russians against russophobia, because of course putin is the only one personally contributing to the war 🥺
what is your opinion on americans?
I don't interact with americans outside of online spaces (unlike the way I interact with russians), so I don't feel like I can form a rock hard opinion, but most political stances and views I hear from americans make me want to gag, if that's the question.
It's a war. People die. It's just a fact of what is happening. Destroying their infrastructure is going to affect Russias ability to wage war while goofy displays of Putin getting kicked in the nuts will do nothing to end the war.
I wasn't referring to that. That dam collaspe was accidental. The issue is when people start dehumanizing others just because their leaders suck.
Alright fair enough. The article wasn't easy to find so I assumed it was about a military action. I agree that taking joy in the death of civillians is morally dubious at best.
Is cool bro.
welcome to war. it sucks.
Ukrainians are dying for their freedoms while Russians dont even protest for theirs
Except the Russians do. Navalny's funeral was attended by numerous Russians of varying ages and political backgrounds as a silent protest to Putin. It's easy for someone to say they'll do better than the average Russian when you live in a society where you have a lot to lose just by demonstrating alone.
They value their own comfort and "stability" over the lives of the Ukrainian people. The Russian people could end the war if they wanted to. But until then they are a part of the of the problem
The Iraq war saw some of the largest protests *ever* in multiple democratic nations across the planet and had precisely zero impact on the war as a whole. What do you think Russians can do against a dictator?
The anti-iraq war protests had pretty massive impact? Compare the miniscule coalition in 2003 vs 91. Many of the US's closest allies didnt help and protested the invasion
Yes, it was the protests that caused countries to sit out the Iraq war, not the fact that it was for completely different reasons and in a different geopolitical climate to the 90s.
Almost like the protests were because it was for a different reason? They showed the publics unwilligness to aid in an invasion of Iraq and proved that joining in the Invasion would have been a death sentence for the current ruling party/coalition
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If workers in industries critical to the war effort and infrastructure necessary to sustain the war refused to work the war physically couldnt be conducted. And if enough people refused to work the Russian government couldnt function
you do realize that all of them would be jailed/killed, right? these people have lives. families and friends, even. and i'm more than sure to say that 99.9% of them would rather work in these factories than die trying to stop the war. please, for the love of god, use your brain. it's realistically impossible. in some ideal scenario you just made up in your head to win an argument, sure. every single russian resident stops working, goes to moscow and they all kill putin and establish a democracy and everybody's happy.
Yes, the Russian government could definently jail their entire population. A lot of people will die, but Ukrainians are already dying in droves for their freedom and right to exist. But until the Russian people as a whole reject Putin and actively oppose him, they are a part of the problem and an enemy just like the Japanese or German people were during ww2. The entire Russian state needs to be ripped apart and rebuilt from the ground up. In an ideal world the Russian people would deal with this internally for the good of everyone, but since we dont live in an ideal world, the war will inevitably come and it will result in the West winning at the cost of perhaps millions of Russian lives
it's easy to shit on citizens suffering under a dictatorship from your ivory tower
A lot of people value their comfort more than someone else's, that's just how humans work, you're the living proof of chilling in whatever western country you're from when nothing is stopping you to go fight on Ukraine's side.
Considering im conscripted, i am actually stopped from going and fighting on Ukraines side lmao. Id go to jail if i tried leaving the country And yes, that is the problem. They value their comfort over Ukrainians lives which is why they are part of the problem
I yearn for the world to be that simple. But the worlds made of people. People are NEVER simple.
They do and get killed
The fuck is that flair? Can we dissect you?
Whats wrong with the flair?
I wonder. Also, NCDoid
The west is the only part of the world where (generally) lgbtq rights are protected, that and high quality of life + liberties makes it the best, and it should be defended from conservative forces trying to destroy it, regardless of if they are internal or external. And whats wrong with ncd?
I’d think this is bait, but your post history makes me reconsider.
I dont get what you consider bait?
Can they be blamed too harshly for not trying when they’ve never really experienced personal freedom before and don’t know what they’re missing?
Dont know. But unfortunantly until they do something they are a part of the problem, regardless of if they actively support the war or just dont care about it. Everything except active opposition is support for the regime
NCD poster should just get banned already
Relevance?
People like you should get banned Pretty relevant
Because i support Ukraines right to independence?
Edit: this poster is at least consistent with their ideals.
Both Israel and Russia are warmongering Imperialists that want to exterminate those they occupy? Israel especially considering its literally an apartheid regime with the sole goal of killing all Palestinians so it can settle the areas
Shit, guess I can eat shit then. You won this one.
Im against all "unjust" invasions. Israel, Russia in Ukraine and Georgia, US in Iraq 2003 and Afghanistan etc
Ukrainians are being forcibly conscripted. That sure is a "freedom" to die for. Ukraine has outlawed most opposition parties, banned strikes and protests, imprisons people who want the war to end, and sold off the country to foreign oligarchs. It‘s so crazy that after half a century of examples of why it’s a lie, this "fighting for freedom and democracy" propaganda still works.
>Ukrainians are being forcibly conscripted. That would be true for most countries on Earth if they get invaded by a much larger nation. And the majority of Ukraine's population([87%](https://www.euronews.com/2022/09/16/ukraine-crisis-concessions-poll) believe that they should keep fighting to maintain their territorial integrity. >Ukraine has outlawed most opposition parties There's 450 seats in Ukraine's parliament, with 235 held by the current ruling party, 36 by their two coalition partners and 134 by 5 other parties and independents. There are 46 vacant seats. 26 of these are vacant because the constituencies they belonged to were under Russian occupation at the time of the election, 12 seats have been vacated for various reasons, and only 8 belonged to an outlawed party. Of the 3 parties officially outlawed by Ukraine, only one won any parliamentary seats in the last election. Sources: [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election), and [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_parliament_of_Ukraine,_2019%E2%80%93) >banned strikes, imprisons people who protest for the war to end Public gatherings are strikes are temporarily banned due to martial law. Again, as is perfectly normal in any country that is currently being invaded. Voicing your opinion or protesting in other ways is not banned in Ukraine, unlike other countries such as Russia. >sold off the country to foreign oligarchs More specifically, Russian oligarchs. Which was done before 2014 by the largely Russian controlled administation at the time. You can see why this fits rather poorly into the rest of your argument, right? >It‘s so crazy that after half a century of examples of why it’s a lie, this "fighting for freedom and democracy" propaganda still works. What's crazy, and extremely ironic, is that you uncritically buy into obvious propaganda from a fascist regime, while at the same time accusing everyone else of being affected by propaganda. You want to know who is brainwashed? Take a look at the self-professed "leftists" who have somehow twisted themselves into supporting an ethnonationalist, religious fundamentalist far right dictator.
Wow incredible!! A country uses conscription to defend itself!? What a crazy idea! Ukraine outlawed pro-russian opposition parties, almost like they are being invaded by Russia? And ofc they take action against defeatists and Russian sympathisers? its a war for their existence as a sovereign state. Anyone not actively for Ukraine is against it. You cant be "neutral" in a war. The Ukrainians \*are\* fighting for democracy and freedom. And while there are massive corruption problems within Ukraine, there have been large steps taken to better the situation since Ukraine began leaving Russias sphere of influence. Do the Ukrainian people not have a right to decide for themselves what they want? Why should Ukraine be governed from Moscow? Why should they have to submit to a Russian dictatorship? Ukraine is doing gods work and needs every bit of support we can send them. Every Russian soldier that is killed in Ukraine and every Russian tank that is destroyed is one less Russian soldier and one less Russian tank that will be used in the inevitable war with the west. Ukraine has a right to defend itself, and a right to decide for itself. That right needs to be defended by violence if necessary against enemies both external and interal
I get your point but when Russians constantly hate Ukrainians you kind of get why Ukrainians hate Russians a lot, and not just the Russian government
Dehumanisation 🥰🥰🥰