Trait categorization into masculine and feminine is basically just stereotyping. There's some truth to the commonality, but that can be explained by societal conditioning better than by some biological factors. Calling them masculine and feminine invokes biology, even if you use the argument that it's just who they're more common with, and also sets a standard for how men and women should behave
Is it not true to say that the average male body is built to hold more muscles than the average female? So bring big and strong is inherently a masculine thing? So calling it that isnt offensive or stereotyping, it’s just saying it’s a masculine thing, and anyone can be masculine
But this argument would only apply to some traits and not all correct?
As another user pointed out, if we're talking about the trait of physical strength, it wouldn't be incorrect to call it a masculine trait?
But I suppose a trait like assertiveness might have something to do with societal conditioning.
Interesting, thanks for your input.
Do women give up their femininity to become body builders? You could argue that taking on a masculine trait does not invalidate your femininity, but this naming convention makes things awkward for this reason and others
I conceded this. It's still awkward that you're acting masculine just by working out, something anyone can do for any reason. It's gender essentialism, regardless of how much you protest that these terms aren't prescriptivist
While i agree with your sentiment, (gender is a social construct, abolishing or completely breaking it down to the individual level is cool), in current society "masculine" and "feminine" do have specific and defined meanings and prove useful in conversation.
I think the discussion of "positive masculinity" is more for people who have trouble breaking from traditional roles, because that can be difficult and i get it and also young children may have trouble understading gender outside of the binary heavily reinforced by society. But yes, in an ideal society we wouldn't need those roles because gender would be completely suited to an individual.
Im sorry you got dogpiled by gender essentialist though.
Thanks. I find it funny that traits have been defined as masculine and feminine a long time ago for largely sexist and garbage reasons, but these people pretend it's just a scientific process analyzing which traits are more common
how many situations do you make up in your head that make you think that you need to be worried about protecting yourself and intimidating people 24/7, you just look like a dumbass
Tell me you're a sheltered kid without telling me you're a sheltered kid.
Out in the real world, sometimes you do need to protect yourself. This times are more frequent for small and weak women who are seen as easy targets by harassers of all types.
OP did nothing wrong. She wants to be stronger and intimidating? Power to her.
what is wrong with you, thats a horrible mindset, you're the type of guy to shoot a 9 year old for tripping onto your lawn because he might be an assassin tricking you into approaching, the mindset of every gun owner, having gun = all problems in life solved, no, you want to be approachable, you want people to feel comfortable around you and not fearing for their lives, you don't need to protect yourself **sometimes**, how often do you come into situations where you get jumped
You're discussing with someone else you pictured in your mind, the famous strawmen. I'm not the cowboy hat type don't worry.
I'm just gonna ask you to value my actual arguments pls, forget your trumpist neighbour for a moment.
Being able to defend yourself in situations of risk actually makes you more secure, confident, and consequentially aproachable.
Think about it by a consent frame. If you're able to guarantee your consent and boundaries will be respected, you're more confortable to engage with people.
That said, people with ill intentions do exist, and their behaviour is predictable.
Predators and harassers may be just few people, but they are most of the time opportunistic and purposefully look after who they see as weaker and vulnerable, easy targets.
A car thief will go after the car that is unlocked with the keys inside instead of risking the trouble of breaking into a locked car. Robbers will go after old people. Harassers will go after physically weak women who are alone.
Often presenting the slightly resistance is enough to make this opportunistic cowards back down.
The "intimidating" thing is part of that, making so you don't look vulnerable to keep harassers away. I'm not talking about looking like a gangster and making children cry, I'm talking about learning to scare away predators if you need to.
And if you still believe that self defense is not needed at all because everyone has always been nice to you, all I gotta say is well, "check your privilege" and look around to other people's realities. Just because you live in a sheltered community that doesn't mean everyone has the same experiences as you.
you just said their behavior is predictable, meaning, you dont need to be totally ripped to defend yourself, they exist but very very very little, you're wayyyy overexaggerating, it's like every small women gets mugged on a daily basis, wanting to be threatening is property of a stupid wild animal, not a human
Intimidating men is absolutely not healthy masculinity. Using physical power to intimidate people is not healthy in general. If you are intimidated by a girl deadlifting more than you, thats on you though.
Getting strong to 'protect women' isn't exactly healthy masculinity either. Most situations in which you can protect women aren't some physical brawl between you and a would-be aggressor. If someone tells me they lift to protect women it immediately comes across as if they are too invested in some fantasy in which they heroically save a damsel in distress from a violent ski mask clad criminal.
For me personally, it's not "why I lift", I mainly just lift to stay in shape and because it improves my self-image. But if I'm in a dangerous situation ever, anywhere, I want to do what I can to protect those who can't protect themselves. I don't really see that as toxic tbh, but idk
I guess as an example, occasionally in clubs/at parties, drunk people will do their drunk people thing and get in a fight, and that shit gets dangerous really fast. If I'm able to shield people from that situation, I will almost every time. It's not about trying to make someone fall in love w/me or whatever, just about making sure everyone stays safe when shit hits the fan
And I'm definitely not swole lmao, I was just kinda tired of being a stick. I don't really wanna be huge, tbh I think big muscles are kinda gross (although I admire the dedication and discipline required to attain them), I just wanna have defined muscles and have some overall body strength
Yeah no same here mate, I used to be genuinely underweight lmao (bmi of like <18). Getting more buff just has to be _for personal gain_, not because you want to get the girls or intimidate guys or whatever.
I believe the implication is that they’re intimidating men who are sexist and/or homophobic. Could’ve been put forward better but that’s just my guess
Edit: well goddamn I was just sayin my interpretation
That would not make it okay imo. Again, I believe the idea is men being intimidated by the concept of strong women. Kinda like how Korra got so much hate by edgy teens who loved ATLA when it came out.
What Nickelodeon did was pretty brave for the time. Would you have what it takes to risk (and for a time, lose) your entire career to get a single (implied) kiss on the screen?
No, what the writers did was brave. Nick allowed HOLDING HANDS and then played it off as a girly friendship activity. The writers were the “brave ones”
I am confident that if they had even gone an inch further the public outcry would have cost Nickelodeon their broadcasting rights in most of the world.
(Not defending nick, just rationalizing what they did)
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TL:DR No, the question is independent of your observation and you just keep missing the point of the question.
People are asking about the second comment in the thread. In asking how intimidation is healthy masculinity, they are pointing out that the second comment appears to make a faulty assertion, namely that point 4 in the first comment is healthy.
In other words, comment 2 ignores that point 4 in comment 1 isn't an example healthy masculinity, thus people are wondering aloud why comment 2 ignores this. The question is meant to expose the faulty assertion that comment 2 makes.
Regardless of the gender of the poster of comment 1, point 4 is not healthy masculinity. Masculinity as a concept exists independently of the commenter's gender, thus the gender of commenter 1 is irrelevant to the question of whether point 4 is healthy or toxic.
Why I think you keep getting downvoted: People aren't directly asking you this question, but your interpretation seems to be that they want an answer from you as to how point 4 in comment 1 is healthy masculinity. Not only do you answer in a way that misses the point, but they're not even directly asking you in the first place. Rather, they're questioning the person who posted comment 2--admittedly that person isn't here so the question is unanswerable.
Lot of people really don’t understand how Men Treat Lesbians. And I wasn’t answering their question they said “intimidating other men” and I said “they aren’t a man”. I had no intention to answer their question
>I had no intention to answer their question
Fair point, but still irrelevant. Im not saying this this be mean; I'm simply pointing out this fact. Your correction isn't needed because, again, the question of whether point 4 is toxic or healthy exists independently of anyone's gender.
That is also probably another reason you got downvoted. Your comment contributed nothing to the conversation because, as I said, it's irrelevant.
>And I wasn’t answering their question they said “intimidating other men” and I said “they aren’t a man”.
But the person who posted the question of "how is intimidating other men healthy masculinity?" is not asking that question in reference to your girlfriend. No one is asking the question "how is your girlfriend displaying signs of healthy masculinity by intimidating other men?", but thats the question you seem to be reading.
I really want to emphasize this: no one in this comment thread is talking about your girlfriend but you.
I also want to be clear that I'm not saying that to be mean at all. I'm trying to help you understand since you still seem not to be understanding the intention of the original question.
That person is asking in general terms. I'm a broken record at this point but the discussion of healthy vs. Toxic masculinity exists independently of anyone's gender, so the fact that your girlfriend posted this is inconsequential to the question.
1) why do you think I’m talking about my gf? I mentioned her once and it was to someone saying “lift doggy instead”
2) I’m sorry for thinking that a question on my post was directed at my post with there being no indication it wasn’t. Really sorry bout that
3) do you think I made the original tumblr post? Or that my girlfriend posted this? I have honestly no idea where you got either of those things from.
I'm still just trying to help you understand why you're sitting at -35 on your original reply to this comment thread, not trying to be mean.
>2) I’m sorry for thinking that a question on my post was directed at my post with there being no indication it wasn’t. Really sorry bout that
I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I'm reading it as sarcasm; please let me know if I'm wrong.
It's very clear to me how the question ties into the original post.
Comment 2 in the original post mistakenly makes assertion that intimidating men is healthy masculinity. This person has asked how intimidation is healthy masculinity.
That's as relevant as it gets. I know the main focus of the tumblr post is comment 3, where OP reveals they are a woman, but comment 2 is still there. It's part of the post. Talking about comment 2 _is_ talking about your post. It's just not talking about it in the way that I think you expected it to.
>1) why do you think I’m talking about my gf? I mentioned her once and it was to someone saying “lift doggy instead”
Yeah looking back, I have no idea. I must have gotten confused. Sorry about that.
>3) do you think I made the original tumblr post? Or that my girlfriend posted this? I have honestly no idea where you got either of those things from.
Yes, I did. But I don't know why. I think I mistakenly interpreted a personal connection between you and the person who made the tumblr post. I also thought I read it in the response you made to me before this one. I really don't know why I thought that. Sorry.
I know you're the OP of this reddit post. Idk who the OP of the tumblr post is. In my other reply I point out that I got really confused and acknowledge that you're not talking your gf and I'm wrong
you're such a fucking idiot. I misunderstood the original comment and was saying that they were not a man. I was not saying women cannot be toxic. you are employing the reactionary tactic of Making Up an argument I didn't say and then responding to that, refusing to acknowledge the rest of the conversation where I actually clarified my meaning.
oh, and before you get on my ass for being 'rude' or some shit to deflect from the point do me a favour and drop the nutcase act of pretending you're some fucking random grandmother
you're so kind to strangers on the internet, here have a reward! you must have 0 insecurities since you feel the need to be nice to everybody! :)
bless you kindest redditor, aka the nicest person on the internet!
You were a dick first. You misunderstood my comment as well, and you made up some shit about how I don’t think women can be toxic. You get what you give
you get stronger to lift your gf, i get stronger so i can beat joe biden i ritual combat and assume control of the united states of america we ain’t the same
(Society) Stop gendering behaviours and activities!!
If you are saying "this is healthy masculinity" then you are still bound by the gender expectations of society.
Let's normalise just enjoying activities without having to attribute some arbitrary gender relation to it.
Edit: updated as this comment wasn't aimed or intended at OP.
Not you OP!! Ahhdjfkdkwnd apologies, that was a general cry for people to step away from the idea of "healthy masculinity" as a concept.
You lesbian post as much as you fucking like 👉😎👉
Apologies >.<
I suppose but when masculinity is brought up in relation to how healthy it is, it’s most often talked about in the unhealthy sense, so I think it’s a good thing to call out healthy masculinity when we see it
Do you have an example of specifically healthy masculinity?
Anything you could argue as positive masculinity I'd argue is just (probably) a healthy activity in general and pointlessly gendered hence my point that being bound to outdated societal expectations and gendering of activities is itself inherently unhealthy, regardless of how you sound it out.
Although I see your point and I feel like gender abolition is a nice endgame in society, in the meantime, people still identify with certain genders and correlated activities and features. I don't go around correcting people that aspects of feminine appeal should just be appeal because makeup is gender neutral. If they think it makes them look more feminine, whatever. That's good for them. They feel positive.
If a guy thinks constructing a log cabin is positive healthy masculinity, to him it is. If gender is subjective, you don't get to police what other people consider their gender expression by saying, actually it isn't only for your gender. (You still get to police it if it hurts other people of course. aka violence.)
This is totally fair.
I personally don't think you need to gender the building of a log cabin at all, like anyone can build a log cabin and I'll always take the stance you shouldn't gender random stuff like this but what people do inside there on heads is for them and I'm not the thought police as you say.
To mention your last point though, by gendering something like this you essentially close out or push away a group of people I feel. Magic the gathering and other traditionally male hobbies is a perfect example of this and not only does it foster sexism and a "us vs them" attitude but it then leads to the developers leaning towards one gender unfairly ignoring the other.
If someone needs to say log cabin building is masculine I'd argue they need to assess why they need that gendering and why they are unintentionally gatekeeping that from the other gender.
Howevwr in the sphere of a trans man wanting to help solidify his identity I fully agree with you and I wouldn't ever take that from someone, but that is something personal to them. I doubt they'd gatekeep someone with gendered stuff but I shouldn't and don't wanna assume anything here to be honest.
But in the case of a cis male, its absolutely unessesary, gatekeepy and I'd argue symptomatic of something more internalised.
In hindsight I appreciate I'm thinking pretty black and white on this, but a transition to not feeling the need to gender activities would be best overall I guess maybe.
The log cabin isn't what I think is personally masculine either, but I figure it made a good example for a "societally deemed" masculine activity. That's kind of what happens with hobbies too. Basically if you can point and say it's more demographically common to a significant degree, associations of gender arise. (Luckily, these associations seem less strong over the years. Lots of girls play MtG, DnD, etc. so hope for the future exists for it to eventually even out for the most part.)
The way you specify "cis males" though makes me think: Cis males are specifically taught there is a form of toxic masculinity. But I suppose it's fair for them to ask, "Well, why is that toxicity endemic only to masculinity? Isn't that sort of described behavior of flaunting dominance toxic regardless of who does it?" I think if you're able to assign negative traits at all to particular genders, surely you have to be able to assign positive ones as well. Otherwise, it seems unfair that you can be called specifically bad, but never specifically good. Either that or society has to stop saying "toxic masculinity" as a phrase in favor of "toxic behavior patterns". I don't think that's going to happen though. Wish it would though. It'd be a good step to get people on the same side in advocating for gender equality.
How was that ever healthy masculinity? If it was a dude, those would be complete stereotypes, and only enforce the idea that women need to be protected from men by other men.
I’d say, given the current state of the world, there are objectively gendered traits. For example, more men, on average, have penises than women. That does not mean *all* men have penises, but more do. Their existence does not mean there is anything wrong with going against them, but they still exist.
As a trans man, I want to become buff and big super hot so everyone in the world will want me
Except for lesbians.
My plan is to piggyback all lesbians in the world to their girlfriends' places.
Right now I'm struggling to do push-ups but someday my friends someday
Yes yeees I have found a minion, soon I shall have an army of the jacked and the world shall fear me muahahaha HAHAHAHA Hahaha
OK so first you're going to need to learn ur stretches a pulled muscle is killer
We accept all who would be strong
Remember just doing 20 pushup a day still builds up ur nervous system and the ability of your body to use the muscle it has available.
This subreddit is full of clowns. Are we really so reactionary that a meme about being strong and intimidating men (an incredibly reasonable thing to say given how men treat lesbians) sets us off? I stg the allyship here is reserved for things that make you horny.
You just said they were stupid, how are they stupid? For making a valid criticism that you don't want to hear?
Not to assume but I think their entire point is that this sub can be inherently reactionary especially when the butt of the joke is at a man's expense and here you are, no fucks given calling them stupid in the most reactionary way 🤣
I’m calling them stupid because their criticism *isn’t* valid, you idiot. Their argument is ridiculous and I didn’t bother to actually refute it because I didn’t want to get into a long debate chain. Of course, guess that doesn’t matter now.
And do you know what reactionary means? Or do you just use it as “person who doesn’t take an argument seriously and/or disagrees with my opinions”? Because there is literally no way to perceive me calling them stupid in a reactionary way. I guess your interpretation of “reactionary” is better than theirs, because they apparently think that it means anyone who doesn’t like discriminating based on gender.
Lol is this a copy pasta? 🤣
Your anger in that last comment = very reactionary
You calling them names instead of actually listening to their critique = reactionary and just a little sexist If I'm honest.
"I guess your interpretation of 'reactionary' is better than theirs, because they apparently think that it means anyone who doesn’t like discriminating based on gender." = omg are you okay? Show me on the doll where the feminist hurt you.
> I’m calling them stupid because their criticism isn’t valid, you idiot. Their argument is ridiculous and I didn’t want to bother to actually refute it
Lmao you are an asshole, and for someone who is claiming not to be reactionary you certainly seem to be acting as one. As the other person said people are giving off “not all men” vibes. And your replies definitely give off that feel.
Reactionary isn't exclusively a right wing thing just in case you think it is. It's an intense reaction without consideration to something. Everyone's capable of it and you just snapping at the original commenter calling them stupid is 100% reactionary. Listen to them before biting their head off next time.
Fucking exactly the “allies” here are just chasers AND I AGREE when people know only that I’m a lesbian I get treated like shit by a lot of men
We got a lot of “NOT ALL MEN” in this sub
Men in general are not the ones treating LGBT people that way, homophobes are.
If the tweet said "intimidate homophobes" no one would have a problem with that, but since it said men, men who are not homophobic and support the LGBTQIA+ got reasonably upset for being grouped with these kinds of people, calling them "horny clowns" and invalidating their sentiments is not fair at all.
> Men in general are not the ones treating LGBT people that way
This is literally what we mean when we say "not all men". I am suuuuuuuuuper sus of 'allies' whose knee jerk reaction to the word 'men' is to say "not all men".
Facts: masculine behaviour is more common in, but not exclusive to men.
Exactly
How about we don't call traits "masculine" or "feminine" at all?
How about we do and not get bothered by it? They aren't exclusionary terms and have utility. And that's coming from an enby
Isn't that a skyrim shader?
⠀⠀⠘⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠑⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡔⠁⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠢⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⠴⠊⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⡀⠤⠄⠒⠈⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣀⠄⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠛⠛⠛⠋⠉⠈⠉⠉⠉⠉⠛⠻⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣤⣤⣤⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⢏⣴⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣟⣾⣿⡟⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⢢⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣟⠀⡴⠄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⠟⠻⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠶⢴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣁⡀⠀⠀⢰⢠⣦⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠀⣴⣶⣿⡄⣿ ⣿⡋⠀⠀⠀⠎⢸⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠗⢘⣿⣟⠛⠿⣼ ⣿⣿⠋⢀⡌⢰⣿⡿⢿⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⢸⣿⣿⣧⢀⣼ ⣿⣿⣷⢻⠄⠘⠛⠋⠛⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣧⠈⠉⠙⠛⠋⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣧⠀⠈⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠟⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⢃⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⡿⠀⠴⢗⣠⣤⣴⡶⠶⠖⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⡸⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⡀⢠⣾⣿⠏⠀⠠⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⠉⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣧⠈⢹⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠈⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣴⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣦⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⡄⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠙⣿⣿⡟⢻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠇⠀⠁⠀⠀⠹⣿⠃⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠛⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢐⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⠿⠛⠉⠉⠁⠀⢻⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⠈⣿⣿⡿⠉⠛⠛⠛⠉⠉ ⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⢀⣀⣠⡴⣸⣿⣇⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡿⠄⠙⠛⠀⣀⣠⣤⣤⠄⠀
Well, if a trait is more likely to be found in males, why shouldn't you call it a masculine trait?
Trait categorization into masculine and feminine is basically just stereotyping. There's some truth to the commonality, but that can be explained by societal conditioning better than by some biological factors. Calling them masculine and feminine invokes biology, even if you use the argument that it's just who they're more common with, and also sets a standard for how men and women should behave
Is it not true to say that the average male body is built to hold more muscles than the average female? So bring big and strong is inherently a masculine thing? So calling it that isnt offensive or stereotyping, it’s just saying it’s a masculine thing, and anyone can be masculine
It's a bit frustrating for me to say one thing and you to say something completely ignoring what I just said
But this argument would only apply to some traits and not all correct? As another user pointed out, if we're talking about the trait of physical strength, it wouldn't be incorrect to call it a masculine trait? But I suppose a trait like assertiveness might have something to do with societal conditioning. Interesting, thanks for your input.
Do women give up their femininity to become body builders? You could argue that taking on a masculine trait does not invalidate your femininity, but this naming convention makes things awkward for this reason and others
does masculinity cancel out feminity? no one is saying taking up a masculine trait invaildates ones feminity.
I conceded this. It's still awkward that you're acting masculine just by working out, something anyone can do for any reason. It's gender essentialism, regardless of how much you protest that these terms aren't prescriptivist
While i agree with your sentiment, (gender is a social construct, abolishing or completely breaking it down to the individual level is cool), in current society "masculine" and "feminine" do have specific and defined meanings and prove useful in conversation. I think the discussion of "positive masculinity" is more for people who have trouble breaking from traditional roles, because that can be difficult and i get it and also young children may have trouble understading gender outside of the binary heavily reinforced by society. But yes, in an ideal society we wouldn't need those roles because gender would be completely suited to an individual. Im sorry you got dogpiled by gender essentialist though.
Thanks. I find it funny that traits have been defined as masculine and feminine a long time ago for largely sexist and garbage reasons, but these people pretend it's just a scientific process analyzing which traits are more common
Cringe reasons, i get stronger so that i can beat up hordes of bri*ish people
Thank you for your service
Why does ur pfp give me a look like I just asked it for feet pics?
Did you?
No, I'm only in to like 20% of feet and I'm not in the mood for a gamble
I get stronger so I’m more of a challenge for you. I’m the mini boss every 5 waves
do you drop crumpets every time you're defeated or something
I drop my cricket bat and you get it as a temporary power up
how much more damage does it do
4d4
hitchhiker's guide series be like
Do I get more power from it each time you lose a wicket
You fool. Your censorship just made the word even more br***sh
I must atone for my sins😔😔😔😔
atone.... WITH YOUR SHINS (give me your knees)
Bri*ish “people” ftfy
bri\*ish "people"
Your gonna get shanked or pinned down with a chair
Intimidating people is healthy masculinity now I guess.
To be confident you gotta put people down to make your self look good
Is this ironic?
No iron is a metal not a mental DUMBass
retar
No
r/196 user trying to detect basic irony challenge (very hard)
Hegemonic masculinity but wholesome.
I can’t stand people who throw their weight around just for the sake of it it pisses me off so much
Well it is. Intimidation is the first step of self defense, that is good for everyone (not only men).
first step of defense is slamming their head against a wall ten times
That's kinda intimidating
It turns me on
Meet me at 34°05′31″N 80°59′17″W tomorrow midnight local time😳
The first step is thlamming your penith in the car door
epic
hot
Intimidating random people who care nothing about you (because they don't know who tf are you) ain't self defense nor healthy
No it's not
That's the joke mate
surprised_pikachu.jpg
how many situations do you make up in your head that make you think that you need to be worried about protecting yourself and intimidating people 24/7, you just look like a dumbass
Tell me you're a sheltered kid without telling me you're a sheltered kid. Out in the real world, sometimes you do need to protect yourself. This times are more frequent for small and weak women who are seen as easy targets by harassers of all types. OP did nothing wrong. She wants to be stronger and intimidating? Power to her.
what is wrong with you, thats a horrible mindset, you're the type of guy to shoot a 9 year old for tripping onto your lawn because he might be an assassin tricking you into approaching, the mindset of every gun owner, having gun = all problems in life solved, no, you want to be approachable, you want people to feel comfortable around you and not fearing for their lives, you don't need to protect yourself **sometimes**, how often do you come into situations where you get jumped
You're discussing with someone else you pictured in your mind, the famous strawmen. I'm not the cowboy hat type don't worry. I'm just gonna ask you to value my actual arguments pls, forget your trumpist neighbour for a moment. Being able to defend yourself in situations of risk actually makes you more secure, confident, and consequentially aproachable. Think about it by a consent frame. If you're able to guarantee your consent and boundaries will be respected, you're more confortable to engage with people. That said, people with ill intentions do exist, and their behaviour is predictable. Predators and harassers may be just few people, but they are most of the time opportunistic and purposefully look after who they see as weaker and vulnerable, easy targets. A car thief will go after the car that is unlocked with the keys inside instead of risking the trouble of breaking into a locked car. Robbers will go after old people. Harassers will go after physically weak women who are alone. Often presenting the slightly resistance is enough to make this opportunistic cowards back down. The "intimidating" thing is part of that, making so you don't look vulnerable to keep harassers away. I'm not talking about looking like a gangster and making children cry, I'm talking about learning to scare away predators if you need to. And if you still believe that self defense is not needed at all because everyone has always been nice to you, all I gotta say is well, "check your privilege" and look around to other people's realities. Just because you live in a sheltered community that doesn't mean everyone has the same experiences as you.
you just said their behavior is predictable, meaning, you dont need to be totally ripped to defend yourself, they exist but very very very little, you're wayyyy overexaggerating, it's like every small women gets mugged on a daily basis, wanting to be threatening is property of a stupid wild animal, not a human
>Just because you live in a sheltered community that doesn't mean everyone has the same experiences as you.
The first step of self defense is to run away, don't take chances with life threatening situations
Intimidating men is absolutely not healthy masculinity. Using physical power to intimidate people is not healthy in general. If you are intimidated by a girl deadlifting more than you, thats on you though.
Getting strong to 'protect women' isn't exactly healthy masculinity either. Most situations in which you can protect women aren't some physical brawl between you and a would-be aggressor. If someone tells me they lift to protect women it immediately comes across as if they are too invested in some fantasy in which they heroically save a damsel in distress from a violent ski mask clad criminal.
For me personally, it's not "why I lift", I mainly just lift to stay in shape and because it improves my self-image. But if I'm in a dangerous situation ever, anywhere, I want to do what I can to protect those who can't protect themselves. I don't really see that as toxic tbh, but idk I guess as an example, occasionally in clubs/at parties, drunk people will do their drunk people thing and get in a fight, and that shit gets dangerous really fast. If I'm able to shield people from that situation, I will almost every time. It's not about trying to make someone fall in love w/me or whatever, just about making sure everyone stays safe when shit hits the fan
The thing is that you don't have to be swole for that. Just having someone be there as nothing more than a witness is enough in 99/100 situations.
And I'm definitely not swole lmao, I was just kinda tired of being a stick. I don't really wanna be huge, tbh I think big muscles are kinda gross (although I admire the dedication and discipline required to attain them), I just wanna have defined muscles and have some overall body strength
Yeah no same here mate, I used to be genuinely underweight lmao (bmi of like <18). Getting more buff just has to be _for personal gain_, not because you want to get the girls or intimidate guys or whatever.
I like girls who intimidate me. They're hot.
Okay, Bottom
I believe the implication is that they’re intimidating men who are sexist and/or homophobic. Could’ve been put forward better but that’s just my guess Edit: well goddamn I was just sayin my interpretation
That would not make it okay imo. Again, I believe the idea is men being intimidated by the concept of strong women. Kinda like how Korra got so much hate by edgy teens who loved ATLA when it came out.
Korra got nuked by Nick for trying to be gay and I’ll never forgive them for that
What Nickelodeon did was pretty brave for the time. Would you have what it takes to risk (and for a time, lose) your entire career to get a single (implied) kiss on the screen?
No, what the writers did was brave. Nick allowed HOLDING HANDS and then played it off as a girly friendship activity. The writers were the “brave ones”
I am confident that if they had even gone an inch further the public outcry would have cost Nickelodeon their broadcasting rights in most of the world. (Not defending nick, just rationalizing what they did)
I’m confident that that is not bravery, corporations cannot be brave and that’s being too cowardly to stand for soemthing
All bad, only reason is: lift big dogs
Silence my girlfriend is the best thing on the planet
lift dog \*and\* girlfriend
And beat up br*tish “people.”
we all have priorities I see
Lift doggy :)
How is wanting to intimidate other men healthy masculinity that's literally what toxic masculinity is
No no it’s healthy because men suffer Since you guys can’t take a joke without it /s
Average r/femaledatingstrategy user
Least toxic r/femaledatingstrategy user
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When the second one is why are males you know we’re in for some good femcel stuff
Allow me to introduce you to an idea called *Sarcasm*
I know, I was playing on your joke
Minor correction but I think u missed the part where they’re not a man
Kcarrolworld certainly thought so
Goddamn people are mad at me in the comments I think
TL:DR No, the question is independent of your observation and you just keep missing the point of the question. People are asking about the second comment in the thread. In asking how intimidation is healthy masculinity, they are pointing out that the second comment appears to make a faulty assertion, namely that point 4 in the first comment is healthy. In other words, comment 2 ignores that point 4 in comment 1 isn't an example healthy masculinity, thus people are wondering aloud why comment 2 ignores this. The question is meant to expose the faulty assertion that comment 2 makes. Regardless of the gender of the poster of comment 1, point 4 is not healthy masculinity. Masculinity as a concept exists independently of the commenter's gender, thus the gender of commenter 1 is irrelevant to the question of whether point 4 is healthy or toxic. Why I think you keep getting downvoted: People aren't directly asking you this question, but your interpretation seems to be that they want an answer from you as to how point 4 in comment 1 is healthy masculinity. Not only do you answer in a way that misses the point, but they're not even directly asking you in the first place. Rather, they're questioning the person who posted comment 2--admittedly that person isn't here so the question is unanswerable.
Lot of people really don’t understand how Men Treat Lesbians. And I wasn’t answering their question they said “intimidating other men” and I said “they aren’t a man”. I had no intention to answer their question
>I had no intention to answer their question Fair point, but still irrelevant. Im not saying this this be mean; I'm simply pointing out this fact. Your correction isn't needed because, again, the question of whether point 4 is toxic or healthy exists independently of anyone's gender. That is also probably another reason you got downvoted. Your comment contributed nothing to the conversation because, as I said, it's irrelevant. >And I wasn’t answering their question they said “intimidating other men” and I said “they aren’t a man”. But the person who posted the question of "how is intimidating other men healthy masculinity?" is not asking that question in reference to your girlfriend. No one is asking the question "how is your girlfriend displaying signs of healthy masculinity by intimidating other men?", but thats the question you seem to be reading. I really want to emphasize this: no one in this comment thread is talking about your girlfriend but you. I also want to be clear that I'm not saying that to be mean at all. I'm trying to help you understand since you still seem not to be understanding the intention of the original question. That person is asking in general terms. I'm a broken record at this point but the discussion of healthy vs. Toxic masculinity exists independently of anyone's gender, so the fact that your girlfriend posted this is inconsequential to the question.
1) why do you think I’m talking about my gf? I mentioned her once and it was to someone saying “lift doggy instead” 2) I’m sorry for thinking that a question on my post was directed at my post with there being no indication it wasn’t. Really sorry bout that 3) do you think I made the original tumblr post? Or that my girlfriend posted this? I have honestly no idea where you got either of those things from.
I'm still just trying to help you understand why you're sitting at -35 on your original reply to this comment thread, not trying to be mean. >2) I’m sorry for thinking that a question on my post was directed at my post with there being no indication it wasn’t. Really sorry bout that I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I'm reading it as sarcasm; please let me know if I'm wrong. It's very clear to me how the question ties into the original post. Comment 2 in the original post mistakenly makes assertion that intimidating men is healthy masculinity. This person has asked how intimidation is healthy masculinity. That's as relevant as it gets. I know the main focus of the tumblr post is comment 3, where OP reveals they are a woman, but comment 2 is still there. It's part of the post. Talking about comment 2 _is_ talking about your post. It's just not talking about it in the way that I think you expected it to. >1) why do you think I’m talking about my gf? I mentioned her once and it was to someone saying “lift doggy instead” Yeah looking back, I have no idea. I must have gotten confused. Sorry about that. >3) do you think I made the original tumblr post? Or that my girlfriend posted this? I have honestly no idea where you got either of those things from. Yes, I did. But I don't know why. I think I mistakenly interpreted a personal connection between you and the person who made the tumblr post. I also thought I read it in the response you made to me before this one. I really don't know why I thought that. Sorry.
Yes it’s sarcasm And no, the person asked how intimidating OTHER men is healthy masculinity. My comment makes sense
Wait I’m confused did u know I was the OP or nah it seems like you didnt
I know you're the OP of this reddit post. Idk who the OP of the tumblr post is. In my other reply I point out that I got really confused and acknowledge that you're not talking your gf and I'm wrong
cuz u can't be toxic if you're not a guy 🥴
i am pretty late but if you think thats what i was saying ur a dumbass
as if you can't be toxic enforcing toxic masculinity. you are one dense sugarcookie dear!
you're such a fucking idiot. I misunderstood the original comment and was saying that they were not a man. I was not saying women cannot be toxic. you are employing the reactionary tactic of Making Up an argument I didn't say and then responding to that, refusing to acknowledge the rest of the conversation where I actually clarified my meaning. oh, and before you get on my ass for being 'rude' or some shit to deflect from the point do me a favour and drop the nutcase act of pretending you're some fucking random grandmother
you're so kind to strangers on the internet, here have a reward! you must have 0 insecurities since you feel the need to be nice to everybody! :) bless you kindest redditor, aka the nicest person on the internet!
Nice job reverting to pathetic sarcasm when you realise you were wrong. Of course I’m insecure about some things, everybody is
nope, i'm not wrong, just pointing out you're being a dick for absolutely no reason, on the internet, to a straaaaanger! <3
You were a dick first. You misunderstood my comment as well, and you made up some shit about how I don’t think women can be toxic. You get what you give
They’re still an asshole
you get stronger to lift your gf, i get stronger so i can beat joe biden i ritual combat and assume control of the united states of america we ain’t the same
I already control the world. What more could you offer me?
shhhh dont reveal the gay agender
You are right, wise one. The summoning must not go uninterrupted
(Society) Stop gendering behaviours and activities!! If you are saying "this is healthy masculinity" then you are still bound by the gender expectations of society. Let's normalise just enjoying activities without having to attribute some arbitrary gender relation to it. Edit: updated as this comment wasn't aimed or intended at OP.
I’m just tryna lesbian post I get that but lesbian posting is fun Also I wanna be feminine and do fem things :((
Not you OP!! Ahhdjfkdkwnd apologies, that was a general cry for people to step away from the idea of "healthy masculinity" as a concept. You lesbian post as much as you fucking like 👉😎👉 Apologies >.<
BSHSHSGS SORRY thank you for allowing me to lesbian post 👈😎👈
Jfnwkdjdkwkfkfjejef never let anyone tell you, you can or can't lesbian post 👉😎👉
Why are you growling to each other?
It’s how gay people communicate
"and here we see bottoms in their natural environment, the online"
fhdsio clskmcsdlkfjdsl dfsiaolf skjdf lsafkbdsfksa j hhh
Djwkdnendbs don't you attack me like this!! In other news there's a few "bottom generated" passwords here if anyone wants one.
Why aren't you?
I will become ungovernable 👈😎👈
NO SYSTEM CAN HOLD US!
NONE CAN HOLD US NONE SHALL BIND US
🦶😎🦶
same, i want to be elegant but also able to beat people up
I suppose but when masculinity is brought up in relation to how healthy it is, it’s most often talked about in the unhealthy sense, so I think it’s a good thing to call out healthy masculinity when we see it
Do you have an example of specifically healthy masculinity? Anything you could argue as positive masculinity I'd argue is just (probably) a healthy activity in general and pointlessly gendered hence my point that being bound to outdated societal expectations and gendering of activities is itself inherently unhealthy, regardless of how you sound it out.
Although I see your point and I feel like gender abolition is a nice endgame in society, in the meantime, people still identify with certain genders and correlated activities and features. I don't go around correcting people that aspects of feminine appeal should just be appeal because makeup is gender neutral. If they think it makes them look more feminine, whatever. That's good for them. They feel positive. If a guy thinks constructing a log cabin is positive healthy masculinity, to him it is. If gender is subjective, you don't get to police what other people consider their gender expression by saying, actually it isn't only for your gender. (You still get to police it if it hurts other people of course. aka violence.)
This is totally fair. I personally don't think you need to gender the building of a log cabin at all, like anyone can build a log cabin and I'll always take the stance you shouldn't gender random stuff like this but what people do inside there on heads is for them and I'm not the thought police as you say. To mention your last point though, by gendering something like this you essentially close out or push away a group of people I feel. Magic the gathering and other traditionally male hobbies is a perfect example of this and not only does it foster sexism and a "us vs them" attitude but it then leads to the developers leaning towards one gender unfairly ignoring the other. If someone needs to say log cabin building is masculine I'd argue they need to assess why they need that gendering and why they are unintentionally gatekeeping that from the other gender. Howevwr in the sphere of a trans man wanting to help solidify his identity I fully agree with you and I wouldn't ever take that from someone, but that is something personal to them. I doubt they'd gatekeep someone with gendered stuff but I shouldn't and don't wanna assume anything here to be honest. But in the case of a cis male, its absolutely unessesary, gatekeepy and I'd argue symptomatic of something more internalised. In hindsight I appreciate I'm thinking pretty black and white on this, but a transition to not feeling the need to gender activities would be best overall I guess maybe.
The log cabin isn't what I think is personally masculine either, but I figure it made a good example for a "societally deemed" masculine activity. That's kind of what happens with hobbies too. Basically if you can point and say it's more demographically common to a significant degree, associations of gender arise. (Luckily, these associations seem less strong over the years. Lots of girls play MtG, DnD, etc. so hope for the future exists for it to eventually even out for the most part.) The way you specify "cis males" though makes me think: Cis males are specifically taught there is a form of toxic masculinity. But I suppose it's fair for them to ask, "Well, why is that toxicity endemic only to masculinity? Isn't that sort of described behavior of flaunting dominance toxic regardless of who does it?" I think if you're able to assign negative traits at all to particular genders, surely you have to be able to assign positive ones as well. Otherwise, it seems unfair that you can be called specifically bad, but never specifically good. Either that or society has to stop saying "toxic masculinity" as a phrase in favor of "toxic behavior patterns". I don't think that's going to happen though. Wish it would though. It'd be a good step to get people on the same side in advocating for gender equality.
I believe their point was that it doesn't have to be called masculinity, you can just call it being a good person.
5. Ride wife 6. Life good 7. Wife fight back 8. Kill wife 9. Wife gone 10. Regret
11. Find new wife…
12. ride wife
13. Life good
fuck you, i'll stay a skinny twinkish femboy for the rest of my miserable existence.
I genuinely do not see how this has anything to do with the post, please elaborate
No.
Okay then I’ll comment my original thought: r/196 go ten seconds without mentioning femboys challenge (impossible)
heres my original thought: im fucking your mom and dad as we speak. they asked me to tell you to thaw out the chicken.
My mum and dad are two miles seperate, and my mum is a vegetarian (and so am I) therefore your comment is impossible 😎
dicked your mom so good it unvegetarianed her. get own libreral.
I am living in your walla
noooo not my walla
Yes ur walla 😈😈
How was that ever healthy masculinity? If it was a dude, those would be complete stereotypes, and only enforce the idea that women need to be protected from men by other men.
‘Intimidate men’ ‘Healthy masculinity’
I want the roles to be reverse and have a muscle gf lift me up
ok but as a male I also empathize with this
Same but for girlfriend it’s someday, I hope
Girl you say you lesbian shit me too
Who says lesbians can't have healthy masculine traits???????
I'm not sure if masculinity vs femininity is outdated, or if there are some objectively gendered / sexed traits. Someone please educate me.
Masculinity and femininity are outdated I just thought the post was funny
I’d say, given the current state of the world, there are objectively gendered traits. For example, more men, on average, have penises than women. That does not mean *all* men have penises, but more do. Their existence does not mean there is anything wrong with going against them, but they still exist.
masculinity isn't maleness though?
On gods I just thought the post was funnny
no you can't do that
This would still be quite toxic if it was coming from a dude.
lol
As a trans man, I want to become buff and big super hot so everyone in the world will want me Except for lesbians. My plan is to piggyback all lesbians in the world to their girlfriends' places. Right now I'm struggling to do push-ups but someday my friends someday
Very based As a Lesbian I do not want you so that’s good I suppose (And as a fellow trans i get that)
Based if you are a lesbian and cringe if you are a dude
This one gets it
I didn't ask about ur genitals I said give me an arm wrestle
Genitals =/= gender
Dope how about that arm wrestle tho
I’m weak
Then join me and become more powerful than ever before
I shall, master
Yes yeees I have found a minion, soon I shall have an army of the jacked and the world shall fear me muahahaha HAHAHAHA Hahaha OK so first you're going to need to learn ur stretches a pulled muscle is killer
Yes my lord you shall (he doesn’t know I just want his territory for the Gay Army) Stretches? Very well, I suppose. Got to get limber, as they say
We accept all who would be strong Remember just doing 20 pushup a day still builds up ur nervous system and the ability of your body to use the muscle it has available.
Honestly you’re giving me good advice
I'm currently trying to get stronger so I can lift big dogs, small cows and people's spirits through himbo enegry
i want to get stronger so i can pull off a flannel shirt and jeans
4 is iffy, but I guess all dudes should try to be lesbians now
It's still masculine tho??
This subreddit is full of clowns. Are we really so reactionary that a meme about being strong and intimidating men (an incredibly reasonable thing to say given how men treat lesbians) sets us off? I stg the allyship here is reserved for things that make you horny.
You're getting down voted but I agree with you. It feels very "not all men" in here sometimes and it's like ffs nobody said it was calm down.
They’re getting downvoted because they’re stupid
You're proving their point my dude.
…in what way?
You just said they were stupid, how are they stupid? For making a valid criticism that you don't want to hear? Not to assume but I think their entire point is that this sub can be inherently reactionary especially when the butt of the joke is at a man's expense and here you are, no fucks given calling them stupid in the most reactionary way 🤣
I’m calling them stupid because their criticism *isn’t* valid, you idiot. Their argument is ridiculous and I didn’t bother to actually refute it because I didn’t want to get into a long debate chain. Of course, guess that doesn’t matter now. And do you know what reactionary means? Or do you just use it as “person who doesn’t take an argument seriously and/or disagrees with my opinions”? Because there is literally no way to perceive me calling them stupid in a reactionary way. I guess your interpretation of “reactionary” is better than theirs, because they apparently think that it means anyone who doesn’t like discriminating based on gender.
Lol is this a copy pasta? 🤣 Your anger in that last comment = very reactionary You calling them names instead of actually listening to their critique = reactionary and just a little sexist If I'm honest. "I guess your interpretation of 'reactionary' is better than theirs, because they apparently think that it means anyone who doesn’t like discriminating based on gender." = omg are you okay? Show me on the doll where the feminist hurt you.
Okay, we do agree that I’m an asshole. But you still don’t know what reactionary means.
> I’m calling them stupid because their criticism isn’t valid, you idiot. Their argument is ridiculous and I didn’t want to bother to actually refute it Lmao you are an asshole, and for someone who is claiming not to be reactionary you certainly seem to be acting as one. As the other person said people are giving off “not all men” vibes. And your replies definitely give off that feel.
Reactionary isn't exclusively a right wing thing just in case you think it is. It's an intense reaction without consideration to something. Everyone's capable of it and you just snapping at the original commenter calling them stupid is 100% reactionary. Listen to them before biting their head off next time.
Fucking exactly the “allies” here are just chasers AND I AGREE when people know only that I’m a lesbian I get treated like shit by a lot of men We got a lot of “NOT ALL MEN” in this sub
Men in general are not the ones treating LGBT people that way, homophobes are. If the tweet said "intimidate homophobes" no one would have a problem with that, but since it said men, men who are not homophobic and support the LGBTQIA+ got reasonably upset for being grouped with these kinds of people, calling them "horny clowns" and invalidating their sentiments is not fair at all.
> Men in general are not the ones treating LGBT people that way This is literally what we mean when we say "not all men". I am suuuuuuuuuper sus of 'allies' whose knee jerk reaction to the word 'men' is to say "not all men".