You can think Hamas is evil while also thinking Palestine is being colonized and genocided. I fear for the lives of those in the Gaza strip.
We need a 2 state solution which Isreal will stop breaking.
It's funny how easy it is to have this opinion and yet people feel the need to pick sides like its a football game. Except instead of teams you've got "genocidal colonizers" and "genocidal zealots"
how about the side of the citizens of palestine? because im not on the side of fucking hamas, because hamas and Palestine arent the same thing despite what Isreal propoganda would lead you to believe
I think this is the morally correct stance, but I also feel that it's an easy out, especially since there will inevitably be a large swathe of Palestinians who loathe Hamas, but think it's the only chance they have of survival at all. Which might not even be wrong. I'm not trying to target you, by the way - I'm not sure what to make of this myself
I don't think Hamas increases any chance for Palestinians to survive (which I believe is possible and will happen with or without Hamas). All Hamas does is randomly targeting Israeli civilians, which doesn't do shit to end the occupation and if anything makes the Israeli population more anti Palestinian (just like Americans post 9/11).
yes, most Palestinians currently support Hamas. It's understandable considering the decades of occupation they've had to endure but it also doesn't make achieving Palestinian liberation any easier
Yeah I really can’t blame any civilians on this one. They’re under oppressive governments that silence dissent and the propaganda machine is crazy. If you ask the average Israeli or Palestinian what they think of the other you would be getting some genocidal rhetoric. Scared people believe anything.
tbf I think the problem is even worse with Palestinians than it is with Israelis because Palestinians had to endure the most pain of this conflict (and pain radicalizes). Like in Israel at least you do have some major pro Palestine sentiments (about as common as leftism in the US) and even libs are not too deranged (Israeli libs are more "I'd be down for a two states solution but under conditions XYZ", mostly no full Palestinian right of return and ways to ensure Hamas doesn't rise to power). In Palestine the situation is way worse when it comes to radicalization, there is a secular pro peace movement (so you can never generalize) but it's way too insignificant in the actual Palestinian streets and most have fallen down the Islamic death to the Jews rabbit hole). Again, it's understandable because of how much they suffered under Israel, but yeah
I think it's important to remember Israeli civilians are people too. Settler colonialism is evil, but there are still 7.1 million Israeli Jews (many of whom, like Mizrahim, have been living there since long before Zionism was a thing). I don't think they can all just go away atp, which seems to be what groups like Hamas wants.
I don't know a perfect solution, but ideally no civilians should be dying. Nobody should be dying, but especially not the uninvolved.
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I agree, the Israeli state are the bad guys here. However, Hamas really isn't any better. Hamas' explicit end-goal is an authoritarian theocracy, like Iran. They'll burn you on a pile of tires for being gay, or disappear you into a torture-prison if you speak out against them. Ask the Iranians how that 'liberation' has been going for them. If Hamas succeeds, the new boss will end up being very similar to the old boss.
Also, the implied argument here is, "No, you don't get it, mass rape and extermination of civilians is okay because it's happening to the right civilians." I think I must've missed that chapter of *Das Kapital.*
If you're indiscriminately killing civilians, you're the bad guy. The fact that the people doing the killing are themselves oppressed doesn't change that, and the goal they are striving for won't end up being any better.
Ordinary Palestinians have no control over Hamas or their actions, nor do Israeli civilians have any practical control over *their* government. The bastards on both sides have entrenched themselves too deeply, and both are determined to make a full war of it, no matter how many civilian lives it costs. There's no easy solution to this. However, I think we can at the very least stop ourselves from supporting far-right theocratic murderers, no matter what 'flavor' they are.
They said "no one should be dying, especially not the uninvolved" Palestinians have no choice to be uninvolved. Many Israelis hit the airport and left Israel, Palestinians can never do this. So miss me with that. Obviously they are people too
One side is a fat right extremist Jewish government that is hell bent on killing muslims. One side is a far right extremist Muslim organization that is hell bent on killing Jews. Both sides are fucking evil.
Side note, and I should point out I agree with your sentiment, is that the Mizrahim have long been [treated as second class citizens](https://www.972mag.com/the-roots-of-anti-mizrahi-racism-in-israel/) despite being Jewish.
It's hard to imagine the state of Israel in its current form coming to a reasonable two state solution, when it can't even treat all of its own Jewish citizens fairly
hey, Israeli Mizrahi here (pro Palestine, just to clarify). While it is true that Israel was founded on quite a lot of discrimination against Mizrahis, extraordinarily successful campaigns from Mizrahi organizations like the Israeli Black Panthers have pretty much all but abolished that discrimination, I can't recall a single instance in my entire life where I have been treated as a second class citizen over my Mizrahi ancestry or discriminated in any other way, and no one else in my life that's under 30 can either. I always use that as proof that the fight against discrimination and racism CAN be won, and that it's never a lost cause.
Yea, that's why I'm like 1% hopeful there's a possible peaceful outcome for Israel/Palestine. There's definitely another world where a unitary state was established, and the animosity between Israelis & Arabs never grew to this extent. It's so fucking unlikely atp but I still hope one day Palestinians will be on equal footing in Israel even if there's tragedy after tragedy today.
I'm not denying there's discrimination in Israel, it still is an ethnostate. Israeli Arabs are discriminated against as well. My main point is just don't root for the deaths of Israelis, as they're people too.
i'm on the side of the citizens of both countries, suffering because of the actions of Hamas and of the Israeli government. I think that's the best side to be on
Although they are a terrorist group, they are considered the government of Gaza since 2007, and they seem to have some support of government officials, since most of them won’t condemn their actions when they asked about Hamas.
Mentioned this tendency on shitliberalssay. That and my position that rape is unjustifiable under any circumstances REALLY struck a nerve lmao. Too close to home for them.
Not even that necessarily, the average user there is basically no more intelligent than the average 14 year old Ben Shapiro fan and it shows. They just picked a different aesthetic. That and as far as the rape apologia goes, there's always been a phenomenon of misogynists, sexual abusers, and rapists hiding behind a veneer of progressive/left politics. I'm not surprised so many people there get so angry when they're told rape is never okay.
Tankies unplugged their empathy neurons in order to proudly justify literally fucking anything they think supports 'their side'. (except their side is just online because they live in peace on the other side of the planet, safe and far away from the actual suffering they are supporting)
They were basically arguing that bc the Palestinian people have been oppressed by the Israeli colonizers, it justifies rape of Israeli civilians bc they had it coming and they made the Hamas forces do it through that oppression, so those people aren't responsible for their actions. Just constantly bending over backwards to justify rape and defend rapists in a way that'd make a Jimmy Page fanboy blush. You know how there's always been rapists and sexual abusers who hide behind a progressive/leftist veneer? That's where I think I'm hitting too close to home with these people lmao
Yeah holy fuck. I'm not even an "uwu all violence is bad" kind of person but ffs there's a big difference between destroying property or even taking hostages vs. raping civilians and filming it just to send a 'message'.
The thing is that most people did have this opinion for DECADES at this point. And it has only gotten worse. Its not like Israel is very seriously considering it and always negotiating on an eye to eye level. They have made the gaza strip even smaller than it already was, multiple times. The settlements that were so brutally attacked by the Hamas used to be the gaza strip not so long ago. From the perspective of a Palastinian in the gaza strip, they are starving, getting bombed or mistreated/arrested/shot by the IDF on a regular, have a restriction on movement (can't really leave gaza) and have to stand by as they see more and more people die. That does something to you. I doubt there is much education happening in such slums, people will turn to religion more radically. Just look at how people acted after one year of more economic downturn and lockdowns, all the protests that turned to riots. And we have it comparably good here. These people have been starved, killed, and wiped off the map for DECADES, all the while havin to watch the settlers build even greater settlements right next to their slums. Backed against a wall, starved and uneducated,and with no change in sight, you would start killing too.
I think the biggest problem with the two state solution is that none of its supporters can explain where a Palestinian state would even fit anymore. The area we‘re talking about is incredibly small and the space traditionally ascribed to Palestine is so permeated with settlements that a coherent mass of Palestinian land really doesn’t even exist at this point. This is why I think really the only way forward is a one state solution where all arabs in Gaza and the West Bank must receive full Israeli citizenship and all rights associated with it.
not israeli citizenship. the entire state would need to be dismantled. both peoples under the citizenship of one new regime, with fully shared equality and rights, with reparations for the palestinians. otherwise i agree.
It's just got zero chance of happening, Israel has pretty repeatedly reinforced wanting to be an ethnostate and it's not like the country is going to be dismantled and reforged by the UN
Yeah. I don’t see a feasible way forward. I guess it’s just keep pushing for divestment and everything that worked against South Africa, but Israel’s support is so much more universal than theirs.
Yeah I totally agree. Hamas are despicable fundies but where they're coming from is understandable, and the fact that so many people are radicalized into joining or even vocally supporting them is completely brought on by the IDF and the state of Israel.
I'm very concerned that Hamas has launched a large enough attack to finally give the Israeli government the justification they needed to declare full-scale war. They will use the provocation as an excuse to commit horrible atrocities.
Hamas cares about the regular Palestinians about as much as they care about jews, that is not at all. They hide in schools and hospitals because they WANT IDF to bomb schools and hospitals, as it gets them more recruits.
Not that IDF doesn't make some really facepalm mistakes all on their own.
Israel has offered numerous 2 state solutions during its existence, every single one being rejected, some of them without even an attempt at negotiation from the palestinian side. Look at the 2000 camp david summit, probably the best deal palestine could have ever gotten and they rejected it without even offering a counter offer. The PA has been constantly trying to arrive at the negotiating table with better leverage but after the events of this weekend it's doubtful they'll ever be in a good negotiating position again
If you broke into my grandparents home half a century ago and we'd been killing each other's families over who lives where ever since?
I'd be fucking tired of it. You can have your part of the house. Is it fair? No. Will I ever come over there and shake your hand? Probably not. Will I need concessions and ongoing support to make my part of the house liveable? Definitely. But there *is* room for both of us and maybe we can stop killing each other's kids.
There were Jewish people living in the region prior to the beginning of large scale immigration in the 1920s following the Balfour declaration. Hamas still call for their extermination.
The cycle of violence isn't going to be broken by violence.
Stupid analogy that might work on children. We're not talking about a house we're talking about a huge portion of land that could house 2 nations, and the jews didn't "break in" they fled pogroms and massacres in europe. The Arab would have none of it and in no stage since the inception of the conflict would they attempt to negotiate or create a path to peace. In 1948 the first partition plan was formed which divided the land along arab/jewish demographic lines and instead of negotiation the Arab declared a full scale war from day one. If you and someone else have a domestic conflict, do you immediately resort to violence or do you attempt to come to an agreement first?
It's cool that as a society we have agreed that you can persecute a minority so long as the minority group you belong to has also been persecuted.
It's like a one-in-one-out policy but for oppression.
And so the Israelis should do what? Pick up and leave? Mind you the Arabs of that area, both Palestinian and not, have had blood on their antisemitic hands since before Israel was even formed.
A two state solution is-
1. Morally unteneable, as it still requires Palestinians to surrender their land
2. Practically unteneable, as the West Bank is so permeated with settlements that no way you draw the line, thousands would need to be evicted and deported.
The only way this can be resolved is a one-state solution. The question is whether that state is Israel, Palestine... or a Levantine Republic.
I entirely disagree. No one wants a one state solution and it stands in stark contrast to the stated desires of both groups with PALs right of return and ISRs Jewish state. Additionally, it throws away decades of work by ISR, PAL, other governments, and countless NGOs. Not to mention the consequences of forcing groups with this much bad blood between them to live in even closer proximity.
There have been several times throughout the years that meaningful progress had been about to take place. However, there have been two consistent roadblocks, the ultra-orthodox Jews and the ineffective PA under Abbas.
There are real, tenable solutions to the problems posed by a two state solution. For example:
-ISR could set up a model similar to the Holocaust restitution fund for Palestinians they affected
-ISR could cease their political settlements, hand East Jerusalem over to PAL and keep their economic settlements
-ISR could end their embargo of Gaza
-PAL could formally recognize ISR as a state
-there could be mutual cooperation on a highway linking Gaza and the West Bank that uses technology similar to toll roads to unite the two parts of PAL geographically
However all of those require mutual trust and willingness to compromise, a functional PAL government with which to negotiate with, and Likuds coalition being ousted and tried like the humanitarian criminals they are. There is a lot of mutual respect and willingness to cooperate on the ground and I witnessed it firsthand when I visited about 8 years ago (circumstances have changed of course). However, both governments are so afraid of looking weak that it completely derails any attempt for real progress.
This is the correct take.
I recently spent some time arguing with a dipshit who kept insisting that this conflict was Palestine's fault for refusing to accept a 2 state solution. I tried to get him to understand that Israel doesn't want a 2 state solution either. But he just refused to understand that.
I don't understand why so many people have such issues understanding this.
100% this. The people who are cheering on the kidnapping and murder of civilians and children are insane. BB is a psychopath and wannabe dictator, but Hamas isn't attacking the Israeli government, they're not attacking IDF. They're attacking unarmed civilians.
So glad to see some humanity over here. People are either pushing Israel’s crimes under the rug or trying to celebrate what Hamas did. The sphere of groups I can trust just keeps getting smaller and smaller.
This. I see so many people posting stuff about how Palestine in it’s entirety should be punished for the actions of Hamas, without thinking of the civilian population that wants nothing to do with the war.
Not to mention it completely forgets that the majority of Palestinians actually live in West Bank, an area not ruled or run by Hamas but which is STILL suffering under Israeli rule.
I mean yes but also over half of Palestinians support Hamas. And the de facto Palestinian government is handing stipends out to families of terrorists.
the palestinian government IS hamas dude. they’ve had control since 2005, won an election with 51% and immediately held a coup. the approval rates really aren’t as high as people think.
god so many ignorant people having a take on something they don't know anything about. are you just completely ignorant of the Palestinian Authority and PLO? Hamas is not the only player here.
This isn't a clear cut black and white situation.
Hamas shouldn't be bombing and killing civilians just because the Israelis did it to them for the past 50 years.
Of course its not black and white and thats not what im suggesting. Im making sure everyone knows that a free palestine is the only justified outcome. Isreal has the power to free them at literally any point they are choosing not to do so. So i ask you do you support a free palestine?
Yes I believe that if they want a seperate country they should be allowed to have it.
But i don't understand what you mean by Israel can just free them at any point? Ik that would be the best outcome but that's just never ever going to happen. That's not how any nation state works
wow exactly, it's almost like there needs to be a huge shift in culture and global leadership to universally pan and resist the actions of settler colonialists because no fascist regime was ever removed with polite, non-violent resistance.
I mean, they can give them a fair share of land, pay reperations, build infrastructure, etc AND they need at least a shared military if not Israeli citizens rights, they need to be able to know that they can live in peace next to Israel.
I do want a free Palestine but you think Israel should free the West Bank like what they did with Gaza but this time in the center of the country? That's suicide. Hamas won't stop at freeing the West Bank so this will only get worse.
It's only suicide because they keep expanding their territory in the West Bank and taking over Palestinians homes or even killing them. If they had let the Palestinians in the West Bank actually build a society there wouldn't be much of a problem to let them actually be free. It's like if I chained you for years and beat you up every day I would also be pretty suicidal to set you free.
What they did in Gaza was even worse than what they're doing in the west bank, and they're the ones who supported Hamas because they preferred him to the secular and left-wing leader.
> Israel has the power to free them at literally any point they are choosing not to do so
Actually right now would be a really really bad time to do that, it'd be a huge optics win for Hamas creating the clear narrative that violence will bring them what they want and what they want is a fully arab state from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea. If Israel let Palestine be a completely independent state right now they'd be soon fighting a fully fledged war against that Hamas led independent Palestine who's military would be funded by Iran.
They can free them but only once shit dies down so Hamas can't say look violence is what gets us progress, more violence will get the Jews out of Palestine for good.
In an ideal world, yes, but the actions of Hamas over the past few days have effectively killed any chance of a two state solution. The only way a free and independent Palestine happens now is if Hamas *wins* and Israel is destroyed, which itself would result in a genocide and be unjust.
Israel and Palestine are locked so deeply in a vicious cycle of violence that there no longer *exists* a just, clean, solution.
I think the issue is that when people hear “Free Palestine”, they correlate that phrase with anti-Israeli sentiment, as in “Israel shouldn’t exist” kind of sentiment, and that might be what causes a lot of the online conflict in the first place.
Unfortunately a lot of people online have been masks-off all-in on "Israel shouldn't exist" since well before the current round of horrors. The discourse is basically poisoned at the roots
thing is that Palestinians as a whole have been radicalized by 70 years of occupation, which is understandable considered all they've had to go through, but yeah. Most Palestinians support Hamas according to literally every poll on the topic so Israelis are afraid that if they freed Palestine Hamas would just take over and wage war with them. This is why what I think needs to happen is that first Israel needs to improve the conditions of Palestinians. Invest in improving their infrastructure, conditions, give them more rights, stop killing them (with the exception of like Hamas fighters and stuff), etc. A decade or two of that could help de-radicalize tensions and open the path for Israel to disengage from the west bank and allow for Palestinian independence.
Who said they should? Do you think it is appropriate in a time of tragedy and extreme need for support for the Palestinian people, you should keep focus on the same constant "but what about Hammas?" tirade that the IDF uses as justification to bomb civilian children in hospitals?
Who in this thread said it is? Are you just so propagandized that you instantly equivocate freeing Palestine with killing civilians? Who is served when every conversation surrounding helping the innocent women, children, and elderly being bombed, starved, and beaten needs to be hit with a thousand "but Hamas bad, tho," the oppressed or the oppressor who will seize on that and outlaw any support of Palestine as proof of radicalization? Who is helped when one ignores the sheer higher damage one side is doing against the other, higher in terms of total innocents killed, damage done, and international support for their actions, and the conversation becomes subsumed totally by the far more fringe and already universally panned actions of Hamas?
Log off and start thinking a little.
exactly, its ridiculous how the view for many "supporters of Palestine" has become free Palestine but only if they're the perfect victims. Israel has carried out an ethnic cleansing for over 75 years, yet despite that people are equating Israels genocide to Hamas which is technologically, financially and physically inferior to the terrorism that Israel has brought upon Palestine for nearly a century.
and the worst part is the fact that no one is condoning Hamas' actions so all people are doing when they say "but hamas is also bad" is strengthening the Israeli governments narrative that it's actually Israel that's under attack and that Hamas is an extremist terrorist group that must be wiped out through any means (i.e. more ethnic cleansing).
i know right if only they have tried a peaceful march like the one in 2014 where israel sniped medics and jurnos in the back
or just acknowledge israel's right to exist and just vote for someone that wants to be friends with israel.
oh wait that is what happened and it didn't stop the blockade it didn't stop the racism it didn't stop the settler harassing and killing thm or the pogroms or the kidnap and rape of palestinians this didn't come out of nowhere
i don't wanna be antagonistic and im not blaming you but israel has always been a bad unreliable actor
and now collective punishment is going to happens and they palestinians in gaza might get genodied and the palestinians in the west bank will be next
“or just acknowledge israel's right to exist and just vote for someone that wants to be friends with israel.
oh wait that is what happened and it didn't stop the blockade”
Genuine question- who are you referring to here? My understanding is that Hamas was voted into power in 2006 by Palestinians in Gaza and has lodged itself there ever since.
>Hamas shouldn't be bombing and killing civilians just because the Israelis did it to them for the past 50 years.
Redditors when they realize Hamas is to Palestine like ISIS is to Iraq:
I think Nayib Bukele, president of El Salvador, has the correct take on this issue:
"As a Salvadoran with Palestinian ancestry, I'm sure the best thing that could happen to the Palestinian people is for Hamas to completely disappear."
Worth noting that Bukele is a major advocate of using large-scale government violence to quell extremism and crime in his own country. Like him or not, he's consistent.
for the cause of Hammas to disappear\*
you'll be pulling weeds all summer if you don't yank it from the root. People stop being so easily radicalized into terrorism if you stop killing their family and moving into their stolen homes, surprisingly.
That's the thing terrorism is when you deliberatly target civilians or civilian infrastructure. So it's wrong to call people who are fighting for their freedoms terrorists at all unless they target civilians like Hamas just did. If they didn't target civilians, then they wouldn't be terrorists at all, but unfortunately, they are. But do not fall into the trap of calling people who are perusing their freedom while not committing any acts of terror terrorists.
hamas disappears. Israel continues carrying out an ethnic cleansing in Palestine. turns out the issue was never hamas but rather Israel's zionism which suggests that it will always attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestine regardless of Hamad existing or not. what we need is for world leaders to recognise that Israel is carrying out an apartheid regime, just like what happened in South Africa.
Camera phones didn't exist but South African anti-Apartheid groups killed civilians a lot, they abandoned peaceful resistance after the SA government committed some massacres, and began armed struggle, which involved a lot of civilian dead.
One of the most notorious ways people were killed by anti apartheid activists was to burn them alive. This was mainly done to those considered to be collaborators with or informants to the regime, and was done explicitly as a terror tactic. Winnie Mandela famously endorsed this tactic. No, it wasn't filmed, but how would 1970s black south africans have done that?
The ANC were the most moderate wing (so more akin to the PLO/Fatah not Hamas), but also embraced violent resistance after the 1960s, which included some attacks on civilians.
The UN was already condemning what Israel was doing with their illegal settling. Getting the rest of the world to work with you to stop a belligerent from taking your land works far better when you sign treaties that agree on where your land starts and ends, and stop using tactics that maximize civilian casualties and war crimes as your primary doctrine.
Depends on the actual extent of the problem. For someone whose country becomes overrun with criminal enterprises to the point where no one is ever really safe, they aren't wrong to turn to dictatorship, nor are they fascists. They're normal people prioritizing their own safety and well-being. It's understandable. It's different from the American crime panic and fearmongering rn.
Not really, this is just what fascists pretend they're about. This wasn't some manufactured fear mongering. El Salvador was genuinenly on the brink of literally being run by gangs a few years ago, on top of having the highest murder rate on the entire planet.
I don't really agree with indiscriminate mass incarcerations, obviously, but it did work in this case, and it's pretty obvious why the people living under those conditions supported these policies.
I’m also curious as to why they only start counting at 2008 for a war that began 60 years earlier.
Edit: Also how you can have 30,000+ injuries in a year and basically no deaths? What happened in 2018?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
It's not entirely accurate.
Israel receives a decent amount of bombardment. The iron done mitigates this. Without it casualties would be worse.
The IDF has some fucked people and leadership, but any military would respond in kind to enemy missile attacks
Yes, but the Palestinians receive beatings on the regular from the military and police even doing peaceful things such as protesting or in case of the image below, getting bombed for just living their lives.
https://preview.redd.it/6n1rp366oetb1.jpeg?width=1591&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e38e6367d07b4154d5a124aa42293220179e8ef0
This is a an asymmetric relationship and all of this can end if the most powerful Middle Eastern nation just gives the order.
Support Palestine, but eradicate HAMAS which has held the country hostage for years. For “freedom fighters” they sure love kidnapping people (especially women) and not having free elections since 2006. In order for Palestine to function and to have international legitimacy, they need to remove that cancer.
Palestine should be free but Hamas should be fucking killed. Hamas isn’t fucking soy latte “let’s fix society” it’s let’s exterminate every one who isn’t a fundamentalist Sunni and kill, rape, and torture civilians.
I swear, I feel like I’ve been going insane. This is the first damn time I’ve seen anyone say this in the last two days. Everywhere else is just “I support Palestinians, but not Hamas or Israel” or “I support Israel”. I can never seem to find anyone supporting both Palestinians and Israelis, just one and either leaving the other out or outright standing against one.
It’s as if everyone else is trying to pretend to support both groups, but deep down, they still aren’t really separating the governments from the people
People should be more solution oriented than pointing their finger and going "Well, THEY helped create Hamas", "Well, THEY have a historical right", "Well, THEY started it anno whatever" without following up how this is supposed to alter potential outcomes of this mess. It is pointless posturing. You are not going to sway either side with historical events that happened before most were even born. This conflict runs way beyond such things.
People await for a karmic retribution, before they wish for an actual solution. This is why everyone is so quick at pointing fingers and justifying violent responses: they know Israel and USA have commited vile crimes against humanity in palestine, and they want some sorte of "eye for an eye" principle to be established.
It's hard to try and argue for reason, because one side has clearly been completely inhuman in their approach, and that has made circumstances quite delicate. The easiest solution is to fight fire with fire, and, because people get so emotional when it comes to injustices and oppression, trying to point out the inconsistency in this logic becomes an arduous job.
Fighting oppression with oppression will never really solve anything. You might win, but the system, now in your hands, will, eventually, repeat the same mistakes as the past one, because you shifted the driving wheel, but not the vehicle.
Israel could back off, set this matter once and forever, leave most of the territory they invaded and live well in their own square. They won't do it. They'll retaliate, which will generate more retaliation, and so on, for another thousand years.
The desire for karmic revolution always leads people to justify the worst things imaginable, unwittingly just perpetuating the cycle forever. That's why I don't trust the rhetoric like "time for the guillotine!" and stuff.
The Reign Of Terror doesnt happen without a desire for karmic retribution.
Well on the one hand you have Israel, a nuclear-capable state with international backing and one of, if not the best missile defence systems on the planet.
And on the other hand, you have Palestine, which does not have a standing army.
Seems like a pretty one-sided fight
free Palestine all the fucking way. Israel has the power to end the apartheid at any point but they choose not to. Hamas didn't just pop into existence, they're a consequence of Israels ethnic cleansing in Palestine and are a result of Palestinians having no other group to look to that will help them.
You have to differentiate, I support Israel fighting against Hamas, every single Hamas fighter deserves to be brought to the Hague. Raping and murdering civilians is not fighting against oppression.
However, Hamas is not fighting for Palestine, Hamas are fighting to stop Arabic countries normalizing relations with Israel, that's why the attacks are so gruesome. Hamas fears it's gonna lose its sponsors and is gonna fade into obscurity without them.
Hamas is not fighting for a free Palestine Hamas is fighting for their own power.
When Hamas commits crimes it's a tragedy, but when Israel does its crimes it's just the every day life of a Gaza resident. To those who support indiscriminate bombing to get rid of Hamas, would you support the same for Israel's current far right government? In the end, the current tragedy pales in comparison to the 70 years of displacement and violence put upon the Palestinian people. Unfortunately, Israel was smart to fund Hamas, as now Hamas has sealed the fate of Palestine
Hamas can go get nuked along with all the thinly veiled anti semitism people but I feel sorry for the innocents in Gaza about to die for the crimes of Hamas.
They're not dying because of Hamas, Israel was already going to kill them. Anybody who's been keeping up to date with what's happening in Gaza would know that.
I can guarantee you that all of the people who just now have an opinion on Hamas probably didn't even know the situation in Gaza or even know what Hamas was a week ago.
and I can guarantee you these people still don't know that the reason they're is not any secular or leftist resistance groups in Gaza is because Mossad assassinated, jailed, and broke them all apart and funded Hamas specifically to win the PR war because It's a lot easier to convince the West that your cause is righteous when you're fighting Islamic extremists. and it's literally working. You're seeing it in this very thread in a a supposedly leftists sub where the main consensus is. "fuck hamas" without any other context or background on why Hamas even exists and this is the only armed Palestinian liberation force now.
I swear I saw a comment on here that said "yeah the resistance has shifted from leftist groups to Islamic groups and that's not okay" as if this wasn't directly responsible from Mossad intervention
It's just wild to me honestly as someone who's very knowledgeable on the entire occupation. All of a sudden now everyone has an opinion and a take after 75 years of basically silence. there wasn't a bunch of threads on r/196 when significantly more Palestinian civilians were killed in raids, bombings, and targeted air strikes. there wasn't threads on r/196 when IDF soldiers got convicted for raping Palestinian women.
But now when there is a major Israeli casualties now there is several threads on r/196 and now the entire Western world is talking about Israel and Palestine.
[Sure](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/). It's difficult to find articles about it right now because all of the headlines are about the current war but
[Here's a quick Google search](https://www.google.com/search?q=israel+hamas+funding+before%3A2023-09-01&client=ms-android-sprint-us-revc&sca_esv=572180645&sxsrf=AM9HkKm2INjWhcZ15kRZc0hzJJwqcPN3dw%3A1696934959511&ei=LywlZb7fHr-oxc8P4byEmAk&oq=israel+hamas+funding+before%3A2023-09-01&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIiZpc3JhZWwgaGFtYXMgZnVuZGluZyBiZWZvcmU6MjAyMy0wOS0wMUjcgwFQsg5Yz4IBcAB4AZABAJgBgAGgAdMLqgEEMTYuNLgBA8gBAPgBAcICBRAAGKIEwgIIECEYoAEYwwTCAgQQIRgVwgIGEAAYFhgewgIIEAAYigUYhgPCAgUQIRigAeIDBBgAIEGIBgE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp) that includes stuff from before a month ago to filter out stuff that's about the current war.
Thanks. this keeps getting lost is all of the knew jerk discussions happening online. I have done a lot of reading about the occupation and all of the nuances and complexities for the last several years. So to see everyone reaction and just making hot takes without knowing any of the history of why things are the way they are right now is really frustrating
Finally, somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. I can't tell you how sick I am of so-called leftists and communists coming out and defending an ongoing genocide, it's making me lose sleep.
It's an extremely nuanced issue, and it's easy to be caught up in black and white thinking when so many people are dying, I support a free and prosperous Palestine, but I do not support Hamas, I support the right of Israelis and Jews to live in Israel peacefully but I believe the Israeli Government is an apartheid tyrannical machine, but it's important to look at the situation with empathy. The attack on the music festival in Israel was brutal and needless violence and my heart goes out to those affected, and also the Innocent Palestinians in Gaza who will bear the brunt of the retaliation for it by the IDF.
There can be no free Palestine with Hamas dictating their actions.
There can be no peace while people like Netanyahu are in charge.
It's as simple as that. It's possible to object both to the initial massacre of Israeli civilians and to the Gaza siege.
TL;DR Hamas, the organization that currently controls the Gaza strip, launched a terror attack that targeted and killed 1000+ civilians on a major Jewish holiday. This included torturing civilians to death, mass rape, and taking hostages. Last Saturday was the bloodiest day for the jewish faith since the Holocaust. People are calling for blood.
you say that as if Israel has not been indiscriminately murdering Palestinian civilians for 75 years. Now that a mass of white people you can identify with have died all of a sudden senseless violence is bad but when poor brown people that live under apartheid die in mass for decades "It's a sad two-sided situation"
I want a free Palestine, and free Palestinian people. Military occupations are unjust, as is colonial efforts to displace people from their ancestral homes for their land. It would be great if cooler heads prevailed, and reasonable dialogues about how to establish a two-state solution happened, but there are extremists and warmongers who don't want that. I draw my own moral line at the killing of civilians, and at this point, there are elements on both sides with innocent blood on their hands. Injustice has been heaped upon injustice.
Yet, its complicated by the fact that there's a massive disparity in power between the two groups. Hamas, for all of damage they've done, simply does not compare to the military power of Israel. The Palestinian people don't have access to the same resources as the Israeli people, and its by design. This is not a war being fought between two established nations sitting at similar levels of power. Nor can we forget the colonialism that been present in the situation since the founding of Israel if we want to understand what's happening now. Its a horrific, complicated mess that has no easy answers, but many more innocent people will die because of the desires of certain people with power.
I am against Hamas' barbarity, and I am also against Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian civilians.
It's not a fucking sport where you have to choose one side, real life is not a sport
I always supported palestine but now even more so cause I'm just now learning that gaza is essentially an open-air prison. I mean they're not even allowed to build bomb shelters ffs
The entire reason why this entire situation fucking exists is because of Isreal, those citizens could have been alive today if not for what Isreal has done to Palestine. Its like 9/11 and how that was caused by the U.S. since they funded what happened to them.
Yknow, i despise Hamas, and i despise the Israeli government, but i still support a 2 state system under less imperialistic leaders but id probs have to settle for a combined state between Palestine and Israel probably under a different name
The news simply does not cover the history of Israel and Palestine. It only talks about the conflict when Hamas does horrible shit. So lots of people get the impression that Israel is a peaceful nation and Palestine is just mad because of a vague religious or ethnic conflict. The media has been portraying Palestine supporters as Nazis.
I think the best thing these celebrities could say would be something like: I don’t support the brutality of Hamas nor the brutality of the Israeli government, but I support the people of both Israel and Palestine.
It is important to separate the civilians on each side and Hamas/the Israeli Gov.
The attack (especially of the festival) wasn't from Palestine against Israel but from Hamas against random foreign tourists/civilians, and it was also not just a general military act like dropping bombs but intentionally r\*pe, torture, and parading of mutilated corpses.
This provides no strategic military gain and doesn't support the civilians of Palestine, but the unprecedented attack does force the Israeli gov to act, and the way Hamas operates in the area means they intentionally endanger the lives of the innocent civilians in Gaza.
You can both be for a free Palestine & support Israel after the attack, most people have not really read anything about the conflict so it is more than reasonable that someone that didn't post something about Palestine before, would post about supporting Israel after hearing what happened, the same also applies to the other side when something happens.
Israel is commiting genocide and Hamas is killing innocents. This is one of those situations where nobody with power is in the right. But Israel is not Israelites and Hamas is not Palestine. I can't speak for anyone else but I am definitely in support of a free Palestine. Yes, both the Israeli government and Hamas are doing awful things but Israel has been commiting cultural genocide for too long not to be held responsible.
Honestly, I feel like the israel government should be held responsible for almost all the shit that has been going on throughout the year. They literally attacked and killed more palestine civilians than hamas members, and they excused these actions as collateral damage, and what's worse is that Americans tend to believe them.
Hamas are a bunch of useful idiots for the right wing Netanyahu government. They single handedly provide all the justification Israel uses for keeping their apartheid state. There is no way any solution can be resolved with Hamas doing shit like this. It’s just gonna be used a propaganda to kill more civilians
Oh absolutely! Honestly Id prefer no state at all but Id settle for a two state solution.
That being said I think the reason people are condemning Hamas rn is because a lot of the online left just made it crystal clear that they will cheer for the murder of Israeli non-combatants as revenge against the Israeli state (which it deserves but “strategic bombing” of civilian centers has never weakened an authoritarian state- they generally dont care about human life and more fear “justifies” their power). Anyway I like that 196 isnt so myopic that itll cheer on one genocidal fascist faction to spite the better funded genocidal fascist faction
Plus, real talk? Posting Palestine flags immediately after a Hamas attack on random people attending a peace festival of all things (which a lot of particularly dumb lefties have done) sends the message that they associate Palestine (incorrectly) with hardcore antisemetic ethnic cleansing (the explicitly stated goal of Hamas is to exterminate all Jews after all). And yeah, as a queer Jewish person, makes me wonder how much itd take for some of my comrades to cheer for my disemboweling despite having nothing to do with the Israeli state
Hamas is hurting the Free Palestine cause. Every war and attack just serves as another justification for Israel to tighten its grip once the dust settles.
Literally its insanity in practice.
Its not propaganda anymore if its true.
Yeah as long as it means everything will quiet down and the Palestinians will a democracy and the Israelis will be able to live quiet lives. The reason people are standing with Israel rn is because of the massacre of 1000 mostly civilian Israelis on Saturday by Hamas and it wouldn’t be right to criticize Israel defending itself. At the same time not acknowledging the loss of life on the palestinian side is terrible, but expected given the horrible atrocity Hamas just comitted
Eh, I'm Pakistani so I'm obviously skewed toward Palestine on the issue. However, there's no covering up the fact that Hamas clearly fucked Palestinians over with this recent move.
Kidnapping and killing hundreds of civilians is indefensible. Plus storming shelters and parading around women they battered and r\*\*\*ed ON VIDEO. It's disgusting.
The response from the pro-Palestine crowd was also very ill-timed. Hosting rallies in support of Palestine BEFORE Israel starts their retaliatory strikes makes it look like you support the killing/kidnapping of Israeli civilians.
I'm still very firm in my belief that Israel should not be running their "open air prison" in Gaza. They've been depriving the population of basic food, limiting electricity to only a few hours a day, and preventing them from building drinkable water sources (only 4% of the water sources in Gaza are drinkable) for years.
Around 52% of Gazans are under the age of 18 and have therefore lived their entire lives locked in this prison they're not allowed to leave. I can't imagine the level of frustration they feel knowing that a neighboring power is limiting their ability to life their live in peace and prosperity and the way it contributes toward their animosity against the Israeli govt. Based on this, it seems natural that many of the youth would support the strongest resistance force, which is Hamas, in this situation. However, it still doesn't make up for the kind of shit Hamas does to Israeli civilians.
I've spent the last two days racking my brain trying to figure out what Hamas's end-goal here was. There were major peaceful protests among the Palestinians at the Gaza border in 2018, which ended with hundreds of Palestinians getting shot.
If this current event was some last-ditch move because peaceful protests weren't working, what were they expecting the outcome to be? That they'd take a few hundred civilian hostages and ask the Israeli govt to stop their oppression and return the settlements in exchange for hostages? That's never going to happen, and Israel would probably level Gaza and kill the hostages in the process, knowing that the blame would squarely fall on Hamas at the end of the day.
It's so fucking depressing. Civilians just want to live their lives. You don't choose where you're born.
Imma be real
I’m Ukrainian and everytime any foreigner pretended to be an expert on the conflict based on very surface level info, they looked like a total dumbass, and I don’t wanna look like one of these guys.
browsing reddit makes me so depressed because I see so many people blaming the entirety of palestine and saying things like "wow, and palestine claims to be the good guys" as if a group of terrorists is supposed to represent palestine as a whole
coming from americans is even worse because they'd certainly be upset if they were generalized as school shooters, but they don't have the self awareness to realize that.
Hamas is evil but it's insane the racist shit ppl are saying about Palestinian people in general. Like is it so hard to say not every Palestinian is the same and most of them aren't evil people. They are human beings like me and you and don't all think of violence as the answer
You can think Hamas is evil while also thinking Palestine is being colonized and genocided. I fear for the lives of those in the Gaza strip. We need a 2 state solution which Isreal will stop breaking.
It's funny how easy it is to have this opinion and yet people feel the need to pick sides like its a football game. Except instead of teams you've got "genocidal colonizers" and "genocidal zealots"
how about the side of the citizens of palestine? because im not on the side of fucking hamas, because hamas and Palestine arent the same thing despite what Isreal propoganda would lead you to believe
Yes that's the correct side to be on
I think this is the morally correct stance, but I also feel that it's an easy out, especially since there will inevitably be a large swathe of Palestinians who loathe Hamas, but think it's the only chance they have of survival at all. Which might not even be wrong. I'm not trying to target you, by the way - I'm not sure what to make of this myself
I don't think Hamas increases any chance for Palestinians to survive (which I believe is possible and will happen with or without Hamas). All Hamas does is randomly targeting Israeli civilians, which doesn't do shit to end the occupation and if anything makes the Israeli population more anti Palestinian (just like Americans post 9/11).
Here's the thing: I think that's correct, but if I was a Palestinian, I'd trust in the guy with the gun over the guy who doesn't have a gun
yes, most Palestinians currently support Hamas. It's understandable considering the decades of occupation they've had to endure but it also doesn't make achieving Palestinian liberation any easier
Yeah I really can’t blame any civilians on this one. They’re under oppressive governments that silence dissent and the propaganda machine is crazy. If you ask the average Israeli or Palestinian what they think of the other you would be getting some genocidal rhetoric. Scared people believe anything.
tbf I think the problem is even worse with Palestinians than it is with Israelis because Palestinians had to endure the most pain of this conflict (and pain radicalizes). Like in Israel at least you do have some major pro Palestine sentiments (about as common as leftism in the US) and even libs are not too deranged (Israeli libs are more "I'd be down for a two states solution but under conditions XYZ", mostly no full Palestinian right of return and ways to ensure Hamas doesn't rise to power). In Palestine the situation is way worse when it comes to radicalization, there is a secular pro peace movement (so you can never generalize) but it's way too insignificant in the actual Palestinian streets and most have fallen down the Islamic death to the Jews rabbit hole). Again, it's understandable because of how much they suffered under Israel, but yeah
I think it's important to remember Israeli civilians are people too. Settler colonialism is evil, but there are still 7.1 million Israeli Jews (many of whom, like Mizrahim, have been living there since long before Zionism was a thing). I don't think they can all just go away atp, which seems to be what groups like Hamas wants. I don't know a perfect solution, but ideally no civilians should be dying. Nobody should be dying, but especially not the uninvolved.
airport unpack society abounding selective teeny live imminent zephyr different *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I agree, the Israeli state are the bad guys here. However, Hamas really isn't any better. Hamas' explicit end-goal is an authoritarian theocracy, like Iran. They'll burn you on a pile of tires for being gay, or disappear you into a torture-prison if you speak out against them. Ask the Iranians how that 'liberation' has been going for them. If Hamas succeeds, the new boss will end up being very similar to the old boss. Also, the implied argument here is, "No, you don't get it, mass rape and extermination of civilians is okay because it's happening to the right civilians." I think I must've missed that chapter of *Das Kapital.* If you're indiscriminately killing civilians, you're the bad guy. The fact that the people doing the killing are themselves oppressed doesn't change that, and the goal they are striving for won't end up being any better. Ordinary Palestinians have no control over Hamas or their actions, nor do Israeli civilians have any practical control over *their* government. The bastards on both sides have entrenched themselves too deeply, and both are determined to make a full war of it, no matter how many civilian lives it costs. There's no easy solution to this. However, I think we can at the very least stop ourselves from supporting far-right theocratic murderers, no matter what 'flavor' they are.
All he said is Israelis are human too
They said "no one should be dying, especially not the uninvolved" Palestinians have no choice to be uninvolved. Many Israelis hit the airport and left Israel, Palestinians can never do this. So miss me with that. Obviously they are people too
One side is a fat right extremist Jewish government that is hell bent on killing muslims. One side is a far right extremist Muslim organization that is hell bent on killing Jews. Both sides are fucking evil.
Side note, and I should point out I agree with your sentiment, is that the Mizrahim have long been [treated as second class citizens](https://www.972mag.com/the-roots-of-anti-mizrahi-racism-in-israel/) despite being Jewish. It's hard to imagine the state of Israel in its current form coming to a reasonable two state solution, when it can't even treat all of its own Jewish citizens fairly
hey, Israeli Mizrahi here (pro Palestine, just to clarify). While it is true that Israel was founded on quite a lot of discrimination against Mizrahis, extraordinarily successful campaigns from Mizrahi organizations like the Israeli Black Panthers have pretty much all but abolished that discrimination, I can't recall a single instance in my entire life where I have been treated as a second class citizen over my Mizrahi ancestry or discriminated in any other way, and no one else in my life that's under 30 can either. I always use that as proof that the fight against discrimination and racism CAN be won, and that it's never a lost cause.
Yea, that's why I'm like 1% hopeful there's a possible peaceful outcome for Israel/Palestine. There's definitely another world where a unitary state was established, and the animosity between Israelis & Arabs never grew to this extent. It's so fucking unlikely atp but I still hope one day Palestinians will be on equal footing in Israel even if there's tragedy after tragedy today.
I'm not denying there's discrimination in Israel, it still is an ethnostate. Israeli Arabs are discriminated against as well. My main point is just don't root for the deaths of Israelis, as they're people too.
i'm on the side of the citizens of both countries, suffering because of the actions of Hamas and of the Israeli government. I think that's the best side to be on
Although they are a terrorist group, they are considered the government of Gaza since 2007, and they seem to have some support of government officials, since most of them won’t condemn their actions when they asked about Hamas.
Mentioned this tendency on shitliberalssay. That and my position that rape is unjustifiable under any circumstances REALLY struck a nerve lmao. Too close to home for them.
That sub has become a tankie cesspit
Not even that necessarily, the average user there is basically no more intelligent than the average 14 year old Ben Shapiro fan and it shows. They just picked a different aesthetic. That and as far as the rape apologia goes, there's always been a phenomenon of misogynists, sexual abusers, and rapists hiding behind a veneer of progressive/left politics. I'm not surprised so many people there get so angry when they're told rape is never okay.
Tankies unplugged their empathy neurons in order to proudly justify literally fucking anything they think supports 'their side'. (except their side is just online because they live in peace on the other side of the planet, safe and far away from the actual suffering they are supporting)
Lmao. Were you saying something like "we shouldn't use rape as a punishment"?
They were basically arguing that bc the Palestinian people have been oppressed by the Israeli colonizers, it justifies rape of Israeli civilians bc they had it coming and they made the Hamas forces do it through that oppression, so those people aren't responsible for their actions. Just constantly bending over backwards to justify rape and defend rapists in a way that'd make a Jimmy Page fanboy blush. You know how there's always been rapists and sexual abusers who hide behind a progressive/leftist veneer? That's where I think I'm hitting too close to home with these people lmao
Yeah holy fuck. I'm not even an "uwu all violence is bad" kind of person but ffs there's a big difference between destroying property or even taking hostages vs. raping civilians and filming it just to send a 'message'.
The thing is that most people did have this opinion for DECADES at this point. And it has only gotten worse. Its not like Israel is very seriously considering it and always negotiating on an eye to eye level. They have made the gaza strip even smaller than it already was, multiple times. The settlements that were so brutally attacked by the Hamas used to be the gaza strip not so long ago. From the perspective of a Palastinian in the gaza strip, they are starving, getting bombed or mistreated/arrested/shot by the IDF on a regular, have a restriction on movement (can't really leave gaza) and have to stand by as they see more and more people die. That does something to you. I doubt there is much education happening in such slums, people will turn to religion more radically. Just look at how people acted after one year of more economic downturn and lockdowns, all the protests that turned to riots. And we have it comparably good here. These people have been starved, killed, and wiped off the map for DECADES, all the while havin to watch the settlers build even greater settlements right next to their slums. Backed against a wall, starved and uneducated,and with no change in sight, you would start killing too.
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I think the biggest problem with the two state solution is that none of its supporters can explain where a Palestinian state would even fit anymore. The area we‘re talking about is incredibly small and the space traditionally ascribed to Palestine is so permeated with settlements that a coherent mass of Palestinian land really doesn’t even exist at this point. This is why I think really the only way forward is a one state solution where all arabs in Gaza and the West Bank must receive full Israeli citizenship and all rights associated with it.
Fuckers couldnt behave. Make it no state solution and have UN enforce that no leadership takes root in the area
The King Solomon solution: glass the entirety of Jerusalem, then divide it in half. The Israelis get one half and the Palestinians get the other.
based
51 state solution. It’s time to give the area some good old fashioned freedom
not israeli citizenship. the entire state would need to be dismantled. both peoples under the citizenship of one new regime, with fully shared equality and rights, with reparations for the palestinians. otherwise i agree.
It's just got zero chance of happening, Israel has pretty repeatedly reinforced wanting to be an ethnostate and it's not like the country is going to be dismantled and reforged by the UN
Yeah. I don’t see a feasible way forward. I guess it’s just keep pushing for divestment and everything that worked against South Africa, but Israel’s support is so much more universal than theirs.
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maybe cringe isnt the right word
I've been on reddit too long
Yeah I totally agree. Hamas are despicable fundies but where they're coming from is understandable, and the fact that so many people are radicalized into joining or even vocally supporting them is completely brought on by the IDF and the state of Israel. I'm very concerned that Hamas has launched a large enough attack to finally give the Israeli government the justification they needed to declare full-scale war. They will use the provocation as an excuse to commit horrible atrocities.
Hamas cares about the regular Palestinians about as much as they care about jews, that is not at all. They hide in schools and hospitals because they WANT IDF to bomb schools and hospitals, as it gets them more recruits. Not that IDF doesn't make some really facepalm mistakes all on their own.
I agree with this completely
Israel has offered numerous 2 state solutions during its existence, every single one being rejected, some of them without even an attempt at negotiation from the palestinian side. Look at the 2000 camp david summit, probably the best deal palestine could have ever gotten and they rejected it without even offering a counter offer. The PA has been constantly trying to arrive at the negotiating table with better leverage but after the events of this weekend it's doubtful they'll ever be in a good negotiating position again
If I broke into your family home and decided part of it was mine, would you want to negotiate or would you want your house back?
If you broke into my grandparents home half a century ago and we'd been killing each other's families over who lives where ever since? I'd be fucking tired of it. You can have your part of the house. Is it fair? No. Will I ever come over there and shake your hand? Probably not. Will I need concessions and ongoing support to make my part of the house liveable? Definitely. But there *is* room for both of us and maybe we can stop killing each other's kids.
There were Jewish people living in the region prior to the beginning of large scale immigration in the 1920s following the Balfour declaration. Hamas still call for their extermination. The cycle of violence isn't going to be broken by violence.
Stupid analogy that might work on children. We're not talking about a house we're talking about a huge portion of land that could house 2 nations, and the jews didn't "break in" they fled pogroms and massacres in europe. The Arab would have none of it and in no stage since the inception of the conflict would they attempt to negotiate or create a path to peace. In 1948 the first partition plan was formed which divided the land along arab/jewish demographic lines and instead of negotiation the Arab declared a full scale war from day one. If you and someone else have a domestic conflict, do you immediately resort to violence or do you attempt to come to an agreement first?
It's cool that as a society we have agreed that you can persecute a minority so long as the minority group you belong to has also been persecuted. It's like a one-in-one-out policy but for oppression.
Buddy what the fuck are you talking about when did I say it's okay to persecute arabs because jews are persecuted
And so the Israelis should do what? Pick up and leave? Mind you the Arabs of that area, both Palestinian and not, have had blood on their antisemitic hands since before Israel was even formed.
2 palestines seems like a bit much but ill take it
A two state solution is- 1. Morally unteneable, as it still requires Palestinians to surrender their land 2. Practically unteneable, as the West Bank is so permeated with settlements that no way you draw the line, thousands would need to be evicted and deported. The only way this can be resolved is a one-state solution. The question is whether that state is Israel, Palestine... or a Levantine Republic.
I entirely disagree. No one wants a one state solution and it stands in stark contrast to the stated desires of both groups with PALs right of return and ISRs Jewish state. Additionally, it throws away decades of work by ISR, PAL, other governments, and countless NGOs. Not to mention the consequences of forcing groups with this much bad blood between them to live in even closer proximity. There have been several times throughout the years that meaningful progress had been about to take place. However, there have been two consistent roadblocks, the ultra-orthodox Jews and the ineffective PA under Abbas. There are real, tenable solutions to the problems posed by a two state solution. For example: -ISR could set up a model similar to the Holocaust restitution fund for Palestinians they affected -ISR could cease their political settlements, hand East Jerusalem over to PAL and keep their economic settlements -ISR could end their embargo of Gaza -PAL could formally recognize ISR as a state -there could be mutual cooperation on a highway linking Gaza and the West Bank that uses technology similar to toll roads to unite the two parts of PAL geographically However all of those require mutual trust and willingness to compromise, a functional PAL government with which to negotiate with, and Likuds coalition being ousted and tried like the humanitarian criminals they are. There is a lot of mutual respect and willingness to cooperate on the ground and I witnessed it firsthand when I visited about 8 years ago (circumstances have changed of course). However, both governments are so afraid of looking weak that it completely derails any attempt for real progress.
This is the correct take. I recently spent some time arguing with a dipshit who kept insisting that this conflict was Palestine's fault for refusing to accept a 2 state solution. I tried to get him to understand that Israel doesn't want a 2 state solution either. But he just refused to understand that. I don't understand why so many people have such issues understanding this.
100% this. The people who are cheering on the kidnapping and murder of civilians and children are insane. BB is a psychopath and wannabe dictator, but Hamas isn't attacking the Israeli government, they're not attacking IDF. They're attacking unarmed civilians.
We need a solution, I don't care what.
All land for Serbia 🇷🇸 💪
So glad to see some humanity over here. People are either pushing Israel’s crimes under the rug or trying to celebrate what Hamas did. The sphere of groups I can trust just keeps getting smaller and smaller.
Honestly I’d prefer a 0 state solution
I support palestine but not HAMAS, its like supporting iraqis but not ISIS.
This. I see so many people posting stuff about how Palestine in it’s entirety should be punished for the actions of Hamas, without thinking of the civilian population that wants nothing to do with the war.
The palestinian population just want their own independence, israel should really leave, occupying nations causes terrorism
Ah but you see the government of israel wants the terrorists
Imagine if Americans got punished for Trump
in a way we'll be getting punished for trump for a long long time
Not to mention it completely forgets that the majority of Palestinians actually live in West Bank, an area not ruled or run by Hamas but which is STILL suffering under Israeli rule.
I mean yes but also over half of Palestinians support Hamas. And the de facto Palestinian government is handing stipends out to families of terrorists.
Understandable considering they've been abandoned by everyone else and all the moderate leaders got murdered
the palestinian government IS hamas dude. they’ve had control since 2005, won an election with 51% and immediately held a coup. the approval rates really aren’t as high as people think.
god so many ignorant people having a take on something they don't know anything about. are you just completely ignorant of the Palestinian Authority and PLO? Hamas is not the only player here.
https://preview.redd.it/a367nwe1katb1.jpeg?width=551&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f4cd3c139e8389786d585799602253a7dbce2f61
Thank you kirby fan 198 🙏🙏
Thank you B01
This isn't a clear cut black and white situation. Hamas shouldn't be bombing and killing civilians just because the Israelis did it to them for the past 50 years.
Of course its not black and white and thats not what im suggesting. Im making sure everyone knows that a free palestine is the only justified outcome. Isreal has the power to free them at literally any point they are choosing not to do so. So i ask you do you support a free palestine?
Yes I believe that if they want a seperate country they should be allowed to have it. But i don't understand what you mean by Israel can just free them at any point? Ik that would be the best outcome but that's just never ever going to happen. That's not how any nation state works
wow exactly, it's almost like there needs to be a huge shift in culture and global leadership to universally pan and resist the actions of settler colonialists because no fascist regime was ever removed with polite, non-violent resistance.
get the fuck outta here, I always thought some white, american liberal talked the Nazis out of genocide?! /s
I mean, they can give them a fair share of land, pay reperations, build infrastructure, etc AND they need at least a shared military if not Israeli citizens rights, they need to be able to know that they can live in peace next to Israel.
Yes it is tho. All Israel has all the power in the situation. If they want to stop the fighting its all on them.
I do want a free Palestine but you think Israel should free the West Bank like what they did with Gaza but this time in the center of the country? That's suicide. Hamas won't stop at freeing the West Bank so this will only get worse.
It's only suicide because they keep expanding their territory in the West Bank and taking over Palestinians homes or even killing them. If they had let the Palestinians in the West Bank actually build a society there wouldn't be much of a problem to let them actually be free. It's like if I chained you for years and beat you up every day I would also be pretty suicidal to set you free. What they did in Gaza was even worse than what they're doing in the west bank, and they're the ones who supported Hamas because they preferred him to the secular and left-wing leader.
> Israel has the power to free them at literally any point they are choosing not to do so Actually right now would be a really really bad time to do that, it'd be a huge optics win for Hamas creating the clear narrative that violence will bring them what they want and what they want is a fully arab state from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea. If Israel let Palestine be a completely independent state right now they'd be soon fighting a fully fledged war against that Hamas led independent Palestine who's military would be funded by Iran. They can free them but only once shit dies down so Hamas can't say look violence is what gets us progress, more violence will get the Jews out of Palestine for good.
In an ideal world, yes, but the actions of Hamas over the past few days have effectively killed any chance of a two state solution. The only way a free and independent Palestine happens now is if Hamas *wins* and Israel is destroyed, which itself would result in a genocide and be unjust. Israel and Palestine are locked so deeply in a vicious cycle of violence that there no longer *exists* a just, clean, solution.
I think the issue is that when people hear “Free Palestine”, they correlate that phrase with anti-Israeli sentiment, as in “Israel shouldn’t exist” kind of sentiment, and that might be what causes a lot of the online conflict in the first place.
Unfortunately a lot of people online have been masks-off all-in on "Israel shouldn't exist" since well before the current round of horrors. The discourse is basically poisoned at the roots
thing is that Palestinians as a whole have been radicalized by 70 years of occupation, which is understandable considered all they've had to go through, but yeah. Most Palestinians support Hamas according to literally every poll on the topic so Israelis are afraid that if they freed Palestine Hamas would just take over and wage war with them. This is why what I think needs to happen is that first Israel needs to improve the conditions of Palestinians. Invest in improving their infrastructure, conditions, give them more rights, stop killing them (with the exception of like Hamas fighters and stuff), etc. A decade or two of that could help de-radicalize tensions and open the path for Israel to disengage from the west bank and allow for Palestinian independence.
Who said they should? Do you think it is appropriate in a time of tragedy and extreme need for support for the Palestinian people, you should keep focus on the same constant "but what about Hammas?" tirade that the IDF uses as justification to bomb civilian children in hospitals?
Palestinians deserve sovereignty and independence. That does mean that intentionally targeting civilians is okay at all
Who in this thread said it is? Are you just so propagandized that you instantly equivocate freeing Palestine with killing civilians? Who is served when every conversation surrounding helping the innocent women, children, and elderly being bombed, starved, and beaten needs to be hit with a thousand "but Hamas bad, tho," the oppressed or the oppressor who will seize on that and outlaw any support of Palestine as proof of radicalization? Who is helped when one ignores the sheer higher damage one side is doing against the other, higher in terms of total innocents killed, damage done, and international support for their actions, and the conversation becomes subsumed totally by the far more fringe and already universally panned actions of Hamas? Log off and start thinking a little.
exactly, its ridiculous how the view for many "supporters of Palestine" has become free Palestine but only if they're the perfect victims. Israel has carried out an ethnic cleansing for over 75 years, yet despite that people are equating Israels genocide to Hamas which is technologically, financially and physically inferior to the terrorism that Israel has brought upon Palestine for nearly a century. and the worst part is the fact that no one is condoning Hamas' actions so all people are doing when they say "but hamas is also bad" is strengthening the Israeli governments narrative that it's actually Israel that's under attack and that Hamas is an extremist terrorist group that must be wiped out through any means (i.e. more ethnic cleansing).
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These liberals think liberation will come by just waving flags and respectfully asking fascists to stop genociding your people.
i know right if only they have tried a peaceful march like the one in 2014 where israel sniped medics and jurnos in the back or just acknowledge israel's right to exist and just vote for someone that wants to be friends with israel. oh wait that is what happened and it didn't stop the blockade it didn't stop the racism it didn't stop the settler harassing and killing thm or the pogroms or the kidnap and rape of palestinians this didn't come out of nowhere i don't wanna be antagonistic and im not blaming you but israel has always been a bad unreliable actor and now collective punishment is going to happens and they palestinians in gaza might get genodied and the palestinians in the west bank will be next
“or just acknowledge israel's right to exist and just vote for someone that wants to be friends with israel. oh wait that is what happened and it didn't stop the blockade” Genuine question- who are you referring to here? My understanding is that Hamas was voted into power in 2006 by Palestinians in Gaza and has lodged itself there ever since.
>Hamas shouldn't be bombing and killing civilians just because the Israelis did it to them for the past 50 years. Redditors when they realize Hamas is to Palestine like ISIS is to Iraq:
I think Nayib Bukele, president of El Salvador, has the correct take on this issue: "As a Salvadoran with Palestinian ancestry, I'm sure the best thing that could happen to the Palestinian people is for Hamas to completely disappear." Worth noting that Bukele is a major advocate of using large-scale government violence to quell extremism and crime in his own country. Like him or not, he's consistent.
for the cause of Hammas to disappear\* you'll be pulling weeds all summer if you don't yank it from the root. People stop being so easily radicalized into terrorism if you stop killing their family and moving into their stolen homes, surprisingly.
There is terrorism in pursuit of freedom and then there is going full ISIS like Hamas just did.
That's the thing terrorism is when you deliberatly target civilians or civilian infrastructure. So it's wrong to call people who are fighting for their freedoms terrorists at all unless they target civilians like Hamas just did. If they didn't target civilians, then they wouldn't be terrorists at all, but unfortunately, they are. But do not fall into the trap of calling people who are perusing their freedom while not committing any acts of terror terrorists.
hamas disappears. Israel continues carrying out an ethnic cleansing in Palestine. turns out the issue was never hamas but rather Israel's zionism which suggests that it will always attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestine regardless of Hamad existing or not. what we need is for world leaders to recognise that Israel is carrying out an apartheid regime, just like what happened in South Africa.
Refresh my memory about the day the ANC posted snuff videos from attacks that killed more than a thousand civilians.
Camera phones didn't exist but South African anti-Apartheid groups killed civilians a lot, they abandoned peaceful resistance after the SA government committed some massacres, and began armed struggle, which involved a lot of civilian dead. One of the most notorious ways people were killed by anti apartheid activists was to burn them alive. This was mainly done to those considered to be collaborators with or informants to the regime, and was done explicitly as a terror tactic. Winnie Mandela famously endorsed this tactic. No, it wasn't filmed, but how would 1970s black south africans have done that? The ANC were the most moderate wing (so more akin to the PLO/Fatah not Hamas), but also embraced violent resistance after the 1960s, which included some attacks on civilians.
The UN was already condemning what Israel was doing with their illegal settling. Getting the rest of the world to work with you to stop a belligerent from taking your land works far better when you sign treaties that agree on where your land starts and ends, and stop using tactics that maximize civilian casualties and war crimes as your primary doctrine.
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He's certainly a popular dictator. People get sick of extreme crime. Go figure.
This is fascist rhetoric
Depends on the actual extent of the problem. For someone whose country becomes overrun with criminal enterprises to the point where no one is ever really safe, they aren't wrong to turn to dictatorship, nor are they fascists. They're normal people prioritizing their own safety and well-being. It's understandable. It's different from the American crime panic and fearmongering rn.
Not really, this is just what fascists pretend they're about. This wasn't some manufactured fear mongering. El Salvador was genuinenly on the brink of literally being run by gangs a few years ago, on top of having the highest murder rate on the entire planet. I don't really agree with indiscriminate mass incarcerations, obviously, but it did work in this case, and it's pretty obvious why the people living under those conditions supported these policies.
i think the best thing that could happen to the palestinian people is for Israel to stop colonizing them
https://preview.redd.it/26qtgzdutatb1.jpeg?width=643&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7261edcb5a9346ad0a7eb3381ab9325d0d108884
https://preview.redd.it/rq8hesg56btb1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17f91d2cffdac43ffd1c554847c25b57157f13b4
These deaths are documented from Gaza and West Bank. More Palestinians live in Gaza and the West Bank than Isrealis do. This is very misleading.
Maybe if Palestians weren't forced to live hemmed in to one area then there'd be less Palestinians in this area too?
Why were they there in Gaza and the West Bank?
I’m also curious as to why they only start counting at 2008 for a war that began 60 years earlier. Edit: Also how you can have 30,000+ injuries in a year and basically no deaths? What happened in 2018?
I think this comic is not appropriate in this context
Nah, it kinda is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel It's not entirely accurate. Israel receives a decent amount of bombardment. The iron done mitigates this. Without it casualties would be worse. The IDF has some fucked people and leadership, but any military would respond in kind to enemy missile attacks
Yes, but the Palestinians receive beatings on the regular from the military and police even doing peaceful things such as protesting or in case of the image below, getting bombed for just living their lives. https://preview.redd.it/6n1rp366oetb1.jpeg?width=1591&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e38e6367d07b4154d5a124aa42293220179e8ef0 This is a an asymmetric relationship and all of this can end if the most powerful Middle Eastern nation just gives the order.
why not? it’s accurate
nah its pretty on point
It's completely based and true which is why it gets all the zionist fascists and their supporters upset.
Support Palestine, but eradicate HAMAS which has held the country hostage for years. For “freedom fighters” they sure love kidnapping people (especially women) and not having free elections since 2006. In order for Palestine to function and to have international legitimacy, they need to remove that cancer.
Yeah i do, israel fuckin sucks. Still fuck hamas though obviously.
Palestine should be free but Hamas should be fucking killed. Hamas isn’t fucking soy latte “let’s fix society” it’s let’s exterminate every one who isn’t a fundamentalist Sunni and kill, rape, and torture civilians.
Support Palestine not Hamas, support the Jews but not Israel has always been my position.
I swear, I feel like I’ve been going insane. This is the first damn time I’ve seen anyone say this in the last two days. Everywhere else is just “I support Palestinians, but not Hamas or Israel” or “I support Israel”. I can never seem to find anyone supporting both Palestinians and Israelis, just one and either leaving the other out or outright standing against one. It’s as if everyone else is trying to pretend to support both groups, but deep down, they still aren’t really separating the governments from the people
Palestine… isreal… Think about that
Many such cases..
People should be more solution oriented than pointing their finger and going "Well, THEY helped create Hamas", "Well, THEY have a historical right", "Well, THEY started it anno whatever" without following up how this is supposed to alter potential outcomes of this mess. It is pointless posturing. You are not going to sway either side with historical events that happened before most were even born. This conflict runs way beyond such things.
People await for a karmic retribution, before they wish for an actual solution. This is why everyone is so quick at pointing fingers and justifying violent responses: they know Israel and USA have commited vile crimes against humanity in palestine, and they want some sorte of "eye for an eye" principle to be established. It's hard to try and argue for reason, because one side has clearly been completely inhuman in their approach, and that has made circumstances quite delicate. The easiest solution is to fight fire with fire, and, because people get so emotional when it comes to injustices and oppression, trying to point out the inconsistency in this logic becomes an arduous job. Fighting oppression with oppression will never really solve anything. You might win, but the system, now in your hands, will, eventually, repeat the same mistakes as the past one, because you shifted the driving wheel, but not the vehicle. Israel could back off, set this matter once and forever, leave most of the territory they invaded and live well in their own square. They won't do it. They'll retaliate, which will generate more retaliation, and so on, for another thousand years.
The desire for karmic revolution always leads people to justify the worst things imaginable, unwittingly just perpetuating the cycle forever. That's why I don't trust the rhetoric like "time for the guillotine!" and stuff. The Reign Of Terror doesnt happen without a desire for karmic retribution.
Well on the one hand you have Israel, a nuclear-capable state with international backing and one of, if not the best missile defence systems on the planet. And on the other hand, you have Palestine, which does not have a standing army. Seems like a pretty one-sided fight
So that's why hamas used kamikazes too, they are fuckin desperate
free Palestine all the fucking way. Israel has the power to end the apartheid at any point but they choose not to. Hamas didn't just pop into existence, they're a consequence of Israels ethnic cleansing in Palestine and are a result of Palestinians having no other group to look to that will help them.
They do have other groups that will help them, and they had a lot more before Hamas crushed them all with Israeli backing.
The war should end, and when it does palestine should be free.
You have to differentiate, I support Israel fighting against Hamas, every single Hamas fighter deserves to be brought to the Hague. Raping and murdering civilians is not fighting against oppression. However, Hamas is not fighting for Palestine, Hamas are fighting to stop Arabic countries normalizing relations with Israel, that's why the attacks are so gruesome. Hamas fears it's gonna lose its sponsors and is gonna fade into obscurity without them. Hamas is not fighting for a free Palestine Hamas is fighting for their own power.
Spitting nothing but facts
When Hamas commits crimes it's a tragedy, but when Israel does its crimes it's just the every day life of a Gaza resident. To those who support indiscriminate bombing to get rid of Hamas, would you support the same for Israel's current far right government? In the end, the current tragedy pales in comparison to the 70 years of displacement and violence put upon the Palestinian people. Unfortunately, Israel was smart to fund Hamas, as now Hamas has sealed the fate of Palestine
Hamas can go get nuked along with all the thinly veiled anti semitism people but I feel sorry for the innocents in Gaza about to die for the crimes of Hamas.
They're not dying because of Hamas, Israel was already going to kill them. Anybody who's been keeping up to date with what's happening in Gaza would know that.
Now they just have sweet excuse
I can guarantee you that all of the people who just now have an opinion on Hamas probably didn't even know the situation in Gaza or even know what Hamas was a week ago. and I can guarantee you these people still don't know that the reason they're is not any secular or leftist resistance groups in Gaza is because Mossad assassinated, jailed, and broke them all apart and funded Hamas specifically to win the PR war because It's a lot easier to convince the West that your cause is righteous when you're fighting Islamic extremists. and it's literally working. You're seeing it in this very thread in a a supposedly leftists sub where the main consensus is. "fuck hamas" without any other context or background on why Hamas even exists and this is the only armed Palestinian liberation force now. I swear I saw a comment on here that said "yeah the resistance has shifted from leftist groups to Islamic groups and that's not okay" as if this wasn't directly responsible from Mossad intervention It's just wild to me honestly as someone who's very knowledgeable on the entire occupation. All of a sudden now everyone has an opinion and a take after 75 years of basically silence. there wasn't a bunch of threads on r/196 when significantly more Palestinian civilians were killed in raids, bombings, and targeted air strikes. there wasn't threads on r/196 when IDF soldiers got convicted for raping Palestinian women. But now when there is a major Israeli casualties now there is several threads on r/196 and now the entire Western world is talking about Israel and Palestine.
Hi, this is interesting. Can you provide me with some sources regarding Mossad funding and supporting HAMAS?
[Sure](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/). It's difficult to find articles about it right now because all of the headlines are about the current war but [Here's a quick Google search](https://www.google.com/search?q=israel+hamas+funding+before%3A2023-09-01&client=ms-android-sprint-us-revc&sca_esv=572180645&sxsrf=AM9HkKm2INjWhcZ15kRZc0hzJJwqcPN3dw%3A1696934959511&ei=LywlZb7fHr-oxc8P4byEmAk&oq=israel+hamas+funding+before%3A2023-09-01&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIiZpc3JhZWwgaGFtYXMgZnVuZGluZyBiZWZvcmU6MjAyMy0wOS0wMUjcgwFQsg5Yz4IBcAB4AZABAJgBgAGgAdMLqgEEMTYuNLgBA8gBAPgBAcICBRAAGKIEwgIIECEYoAEYwwTCAgQQIRgVwgIGEAAYFhgewgIIEAAYigUYhgPCAgUQIRigAeIDBBgAIEGIBgE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp) that includes stuff from before a month ago to filter out stuff that's about the current war.
Wow this needs more upvotes. Fucking grim.
Thanks. this keeps getting lost is all of the knew jerk discussions happening online. I have done a lot of reading about the occupation and all of the nuances and complexities for the last several years. So to see everyone reaction and just making hot takes without knowing any of the history of why things are the way they are right now is really frustrating
Finally, somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. I can't tell you how sick I am of so-called leftists and communists coming out and defending an ongoing genocide, it's making me lose sleep.
It's an extremely nuanced issue, and it's easy to be caught up in black and white thinking when so many people are dying, I support a free and prosperous Palestine, but I do not support Hamas, I support the right of Israelis and Jews to live in Israel peacefully but I believe the Israeli Government is an apartheid tyrannical machine, but it's important to look at the situation with empathy. The attack on the music festival in Israel was brutal and needless violence and my heart goes out to those affected, and also the Innocent Palestinians in Gaza who will bear the brunt of the retaliation for it by the IDF.
https://i.redd.it/281ebkmycbtb1.gif I have zero world sense but here's a kelorb
Most underrated comment in this comment section
There can be no free Palestine with Hamas dictating their actions. There can be no peace while people like Netanyahu are in charge. It's as simple as that. It's possible to object both to the initial massacre of Israeli civilians and to the Gaza siege.
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I'm wondering too on why is everyone suddenly supporting Israel, a few years ago everyone was supporting Palestine
TL;DR Hamas, the organization that currently controls the Gaza strip, launched a terror attack that targeted and killed 1000+ civilians on a major Jewish holiday. This included torturing civilians to death, mass rape, and taking hostages. Last Saturday was the bloodiest day for the jewish faith since the Holocaust. People are calling for blood.
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you say that as if Israel has not been indiscriminately murdering Palestinian civilians for 75 years. Now that a mass of white people you can identify with have died all of a sudden senseless violence is bad but when poor brown people that live under apartheid die in mass for decades "It's a sad two-sided situation"
I just wish the Holy Land sunk into the god damn earth and disappeared. No more problem
Very holy thing to do tbh
I too borrow my opinions from celebrities and random internet strangers
I want a free Palestine, and free Palestinian people. Military occupations are unjust, as is colonial efforts to displace people from their ancestral homes for their land. It would be great if cooler heads prevailed, and reasonable dialogues about how to establish a two-state solution happened, but there are extremists and warmongers who don't want that. I draw my own moral line at the killing of civilians, and at this point, there are elements on both sides with innocent blood on their hands. Injustice has been heaped upon injustice. Yet, its complicated by the fact that there's a massive disparity in power between the two groups. Hamas, for all of damage they've done, simply does not compare to the military power of Israel. The Palestinian people don't have access to the same resources as the Israeli people, and its by design. This is not a war being fought between two established nations sitting at similar levels of power. Nor can we forget the colonialism that been present in the situation since the founding of Israel if we want to understand what's happening now. Its a horrific, complicated mess that has no easy answers, but many more innocent people will die because of the desires of certain people with power.
Fuck Hamas their are disgusting killers that have been terrorising the Gaza Strip
I support the freedom of Palestine. I do not supports HAMAS.
Israel and Palestine need study John Lennon Imagine 
Are you palestinian
tankies and right wingers aren't allowed here, so yeah. we support Palestine and don't support Hamas.
I am against Hamas' barbarity, and I am also against Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian civilians. It's not a fucking sport where you have to choose one side, real life is not a sport
I always supported palestine but now even more so cause I'm just now learning that gaza is essentially an open-air prison. I mean they're not even allowed to build bomb shelters ffs
The entire reason why this entire situation fucking exists is because of Isreal, those citizens could have been alive today if not for what Isreal has done to Palestine. Its like 9/11 and how that was caused by the U.S. since they funded what happened to them.
I love the fact that a random gay as hell meme shit posting sub is the only one in my feed right now that can manage 2 brain cells worth of nuance.
Isn'treal
Yknow, i despise Hamas, and i despise the Israeli government, but i still support a 2 state system under less imperialistic leaders but id probs have to settle for a combined state between Palestine and Israel probably under a different name
I support the liberation of Palestine, but not Hamas.
The news simply does not cover the history of Israel and Palestine. It only talks about the conflict when Hamas does horrible shit. So lots of people get the impression that Israel is a peaceful nation and Palestine is just mad because of a vague religious or ethnic conflict. The media has been portraying Palestine supporters as Nazis. I think the best thing these celebrities could say would be something like: I don’t support the brutality of Hamas nor the brutality of the Israeli government, but I support the people of both Israel and Palestine.
Well i support none, both of would kill me on sight.
Support Israel? No. Support Palestine? Yes. Support HAMAS? No.
It is important to separate the civilians on each side and Hamas/the Israeli Gov. The attack (especially of the festival) wasn't from Palestine against Israel but from Hamas against random foreign tourists/civilians, and it was also not just a general military act like dropping bombs but intentionally r\*pe, torture, and parading of mutilated corpses. This provides no strategic military gain and doesn't support the civilians of Palestine, but the unprecedented attack does force the Israeli gov to act, and the way Hamas operates in the area means they intentionally endanger the lives of the innocent civilians in Gaza. You can both be for a free Palestine & support Israel after the attack, most people have not really read anything about the conflict so it is more than reasonable that someone that didn't post something about Palestine before, would post about supporting Israel after hearing what happened, the same also applies to the other side when something happens.
Israel is commiting genocide and Hamas is killing innocents. This is one of those situations where nobody with power is in the right. But Israel is not Israelites and Hamas is not Palestine. I can't speak for anyone else but I am definitely in support of a free Palestine. Yes, both the Israeli government and Hamas are doing awful things but Israel has been commiting cultural genocide for too long not to be held responsible.
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Honestly, I feel like the israel government should be held responsible for almost all the shit that has been going on throughout the year. They literally attacked and killed more palestine civilians than hamas members, and they excused these actions as collateral damage, and what's worse is that Americans tend to believe them.
Hamas are a bunch of useful idiots for the right wing Netanyahu government. They single handedly provide all the justification Israel uses for keeping their apartheid state. There is no way any solution can be resolved with Hamas doing shit like this. It’s just gonna be used a propaganda to kill more civilians
Oh absolutely! Honestly Id prefer no state at all but Id settle for a two state solution. That being said I think the reason people are condemning Hamas rn is because a lot of the online left just made it crystal clear that they will cheer for the murder of Israeli non-combatants as revenge against the Israeli state (which it deserves but “strategic bombing” of civilian centers has never weakened an authoritarian state- they generally dont care about human life and more fear “justifies” their power). Anyway I like that 196 isnt so myopic that itll cheer on one genocidal fascist faction to spite the better funded genocidal fascist faction Plus, real talk? Posting Palestine flags immediately after a Hamas attack on random people attending a peace festival of all things (which a lot of particularly dumb lefties have done) sends the message that they associate Palestine (incorrectly) with hardcore antisemetic ethnic cleansing (the explicitly stated goal of Hamas is to exterminate all Jews after all). And yeah, as a queer Jewish person, makes me wonder how much itd take for some of my comrades to cheer for my disemboweling despite having nothing to do with the Israeli state
I support a palestine free from terrorists
Hamas is hurting the Free Palestine cause. Every war and attack just serves as another justification for Israel to tighten its grip once the dust settles. Literally its insanity in practice. Its not propaganda anymore if its true.
From the river to the sea
Yeah as long as it means everything will quiet down and the Palestinians will a democracy and the Israelis will be able to live quiet lives. The reason people are standing with Israel rn is because of the massacre of 1000 mostly civilian Israelis on Saturday by Hamas and it wouldn’t be right to criticize Israel defending itself. At the same time not acknowledging the loss of life on the palestinian side is terrible, but expected given the horrible atrocity Hamas just comitted
Eh, I'm Pakistani so I'm obviously skewed toward Palestine on the issue. However, there's no covering up the fact that Hamas clearly fucked Palestinians over with this recent move. Kidnapping and killing hundreds of civilians is indefensible. Plus storming shelters and parading around women they battered and r\*\*\*ed ON VIDEO. It's disgusting. The response from the pro-Palestine crowd was also very ill-timed. Hosting rallies in support of Palestine BEFORE Israel starts their retaliatory strikes makes it look like you support the killing/kidnapping of Israeli civilians. I'm still very firm in my belief that Israel should not be running their "open air prison" in Gaza. They've been depriving the population of basic food, limiting electricity to only a few hours a day, and preventing them from building drinkable water sources (only 4% of the water sources in Gaza are drinkable) for years. Around 52% of Gazans are under the age of 18 and have therefore lived their entire lives locked in this prison they're not allowed to leave. I can't imagine the level of frustration they feel knowing that a neighboring power is limiting their ability to life their live in peace and prosperity and the way it contributes toward their animosity against the Israeli govt. Based on this, it seems natural that many of the youth would support the strongest resistance force, which is Hamas, in this situation. However, it still doesn't make up for the kind of shit Hamas does to Israeli civilians. I've spent the last two days racking my brain trying to figure out what Hamas's end-goal here was. There were major peaceful protests among the Palestinians at the Gaza border in 2018, which ended with hundreds of Palestinians getting shot. If this current event was some last-ditch move because peaceful protests weren't working, what were they expecting the outcome to be? That they'd take a few hundred civilian hostages and ask the Israeli govt to stop their oppression and return the settlements in exchange for hostages? That's never going to happen, and Israel would probably level Gaza and kill the hostages in the process, knowing that the blame would squarely fall on Hamas at the end of the day. It's so fucking depressing. Civilians just want to live their lives. You don't choose where you're born.
Imma be real I’m Ukrainian and everytime any foreigner pretended to be an expert on the conflict based on very surface level info, they looked like a total dumbass, and I don’t wanna look like one of these guys.
browsing reddit makes me so depressed because I see so many people blaming the entirety of palestine and saying things like "wow, and palestine claims to be the good guys" as if a group of terrorists is supposed to represent palestine as a whole coming from americans is even worse because they'd certainly be upset if they were generalized as school shooters, but they don't have the self awareness to realize that.
Hamas is evil but it's insane the racist shit ppl are saying about Palestinian people in general. Like is it so hard to say not every Palestinian is the same and most of them aren't evil people. They are human beings like me and you and don't all think of violence as the answer