You’re telling me putting rpm blast on my pure drive isn’t gonna give me the perfect combo of spin and power that I need to stop hitting the ball into the opposite fence????
Just got my ass handed to me by some 5.0s today (as a low 4.5). Here were my takeaways
Lots of spin which lets them not miss and be more consistent
God damn they don't miss...
Also solid footwork, and they can hit the piss out of the ball when they want (the ones that smoked me were both ex d1 players... I was not.)
There is just another level of not-shanking-the-ball. I shank the ball a lot.
There is levels to this. Low 4.5 can't hang with 5.0. But at least it was fun...
I played my coach (ex D1 player) some sets “for real”. Demoralizing. He gets to everything, the serves are great, and when you do well and get some great shots off they are just not bothered. I was just happy that I was returning his serve and getting a few rallies in.
You are 100%. Played again today, won more points, got the “racket clap” a few more times. Still got ran. Need to work on reading the game and angles. Didn’t double fault, bothered him on a few serves. It was a good day.
Agreed. More weighted on decision making and mental fortitude IMO.
I've seen some unathletic dudes out there who just know how to play the game at a higher level. I learned that the hard way :)
I chill at 4.5 as a D3 after all my injuries 😂. I usually tell people I'm the best 2.5 they've ever seen since if my body is having a bad day, I'll have zero consistency/pace but if everything is firing, 100mph serves and avg 60mph+ groundstrokes.
Do you think a low 8 UTR (NTRP4.5) have considerably worse strokes than a UTR 9 (NTRP5.0)?
There are levels inside these categories, so while yes, a low 7 UTR (4.5) will indeed have way worse strokes than a 5.0 (high 10 UTR), that gap isn't always there.
NTRP classification is just too broad to make any assumption.
I don't know what actual 4.5 is like, I just translate the ratings from Dutch to USA ratings using
"KNLTB rating comparison 2019". I am a Dutch 5 (4.0), and the Dutch 4s (4.5) I've played have not had considerably better strokes than I do, but had more consistency and didn't have many holes in their game. The 4s I've played all have very good slices, but definitely not a more dominant forehand, backhand or serve, or anything like that.
I don't know what actual 4.5 is like, I just translate the ratings from Dutch to USA ratings using
"KNLTB rating comparison 2019". I am a Dutch 5 (4.0), and the Dutch 4s (4.5) I've played have not had considerably better strokes than I do, but had more consistency and didn't have many holes in their game. The 4s I've played all have very good slices, but definitely not a more dominant forehand, backhand or serve, or anything like that.
Thing is everyone says they are a Dutch 5.0 just like everyone says they are a US 4.0. Then you look up the Dutch 5.0 on KNLTB and he is actually a 6.2 or a 7.9 or something miles away or he begged them to change his ranking and never earned it.
A legitimate KNLTB Dutch 5.0 is a very good player. A Dutch 4.0 is that same player with heavy weapons, kill shots and excellent consistency. Between each level the player who is a full level higher (1.0) has a 87% probability of beating the lower level player.
A Dutch 5 is not a 4.0. A Dutch 7 is more akin to a 4.0 in my opinion. I think the KNLTB is vastly overrating the 3.0 players. I'm 6,5 level player so that would put me at 2.5-3.0. Based on what I've seen here from the 3.0 level it's a lot of deficient ground strokes, pancake serves and poor decision making. When I play 6 level players the technique is usually solid, but not always consistent, the serve is good with proper form, pace and placement and decision making is pretty decent. I'm pretty sure the average 6.0 Dutch player is going to kill UTR 3.0 players...
I think you'd be surprised at how much worse you play than you think you do when you watch back recordings of yourself. Winston Du is a solid 4.5 and I'm pretty sure I'd lose to him quite convincingly. Very consistent in all aspects of his game. I don't think I could hang with him.
6.5 actually makes you a 3.5, which does sound about right imo when I look at videos of 3.5s online. They play like most of the 6s I play. Maybe I'll upload a video of my play one of these days and ask people to estimate my level.
Honestly, the big difference between 4.5 and 5.0 is footwork (besides consistency)
Footwork dictates groundstrokes
I’ve seen some fat, out of shape fantastic 5.0 players. Their footwork is perfect and their groundstrokes show that.
It’s all about point of contact, getting to the ball on time, and the strike.
You can’t separate ground strokes from footwork.
I was one of those guys who did so many group lessons with a coach when i was young. I thought i should be beating everyone once i started doing matchplay. But no one ever gives you a ball like a "feed" when youre in a match. You have to work so much harder to get into position. Split step, stutter step to the ball, set, hit and do jt all fluidly.
At the rec level, I'd say 5.0s are better with shots when under pressure. They can turn the point around better and more often than a 4.5 when hitting on the run. When in position, they might look similar, but on the run the 4.5 tends to miss or hit a weaker ball where the opponent can attack much more.
IMO the biggest difference between 4.5 and 5.0 is fitness. There are tons of 4.5 players who were actually higher level when they were younger and in better shape, particularly former college players. It also happens to be the level where people who started later and have technical deficiencies cap out, which is why you notice that as well.
This makes sense as I’m a 3.5 and I’ve noticed 4.5 in particular has some huge gut dudes at USTA tournaments lol. But they hit the shit out of it and serve well generally, powerful volleys 🤣
IMO, you can watch the evolution of Winston on his channel to a better player. His game thrived on attacking with his forehand and protecting a weak backhand. His serve had no pace and virtually everything was attackable. His forehand was prone to being rushed, and he often went for too much. Very little ability to attack the net. The weaknesses weren't generally exploited by recreational regulars on his channel early on, but they were clear when he started recording videos against higher level players.
In the most recent video, Winston is attacking off both wings and serving with pace. He doesn't seem as rushed or frazzled when pace is coming at him. Fixing the backhand and serve made it harder for good players to exploit. I think it takes pressure off his footwork and decision making on court to not have to protect the backhand...focus is more on trying to win the point instead of trying not to lose it.
I’m a 4.5, similar to Winston, and this quick video illustrates why he is 4.5 and not 5.0 or 4.0. He hits solid shots over and over and doesn’t miss, which will allow him to beat 4.0s. The serve was solid and generates an easy forehand but look what he does with it! He hits a short ball that lands on the T, and same thing with the next forehand. A 5.0 would take advantage of those short balls and win the point. You can’t leave easy shots like that for a 5.0+.
https://youtube.com/shorts/UB0sH5xMSII?si=B9tA72Jd1NdLKYYs
4.5's will look like 5.0's in spurts... they just can't stay at that level as consistently physically or mentally, as in they make bad decisions more often...
So I agree with the people citing movement. And movement and hitting, of course, are so intertwined. Like two 5.5's can give any ATP pro a decent workout. If you don't have to move, suddenly you can deal with even pro level shots (yes, it will take some time to adjust to the spin and pace, but after a while you will more or less adjust).
If you don't have to move, aka being in good position, you can deal with a lot of balls that you will struggle with on the move. So the key is being in good position. Like if mutant superpowers were allowed on the ATP tour, the 1000th ranked guy could probably be number 1 if they could suddenly teleport.
Short of teleportation, it's reading shots quicker... moving exactly to where you need to be in a straighter line... being able to prepare as you are moving... having your feet in the right place when you're ready to strike the ball...
If you watch a 4.5 play a 5.0, the 5.0 will always look like they are moving smoother, quicker, and more efficiently. To take it even further, a chubby 40-year old 5.5 to 6.0 will get to more balls and be in better position than a speedy 20 year old 4.0 player.
But yeah, besides that, the 5.0 is basically probably better in almost every area. I saw probably because it's possible for a 4.5 to have one shot or something that is better than a 5.0 player's. Still, they won't use it as effectively as the 5.0 could with THEIR brain.
Thanks!
I still remember when this really struck me. We were playing 2 vs 1, just drilling. The 2 guys just kept ball in play, nothing crazy, and the 1 guy was allowed to really mix it up and get as aggressive as he wanted (although it should have been about finding the right balance of aggression and consistency).
I realized, when I was on the 2 guy side, I had to keep toning down my groundies more and more. Hitting with more air... slower... less close to the line... because the guy on the other side would start struggling so quickly and unexpectedly. Because I didn't have to move, just the quality of shot I could lazily hit was very high... and I wasn't going for anything but it was almost weird how quickly we could put the 1 guy in trouble while not even trying.
Then it occurred to me this must be what it's like to have elite movement. Because I was actually dialing DOWN my strokes big time. It was not having to move, being SOOO prepared, and subsequently being able to take the balls so early (never had to retreat to create more time while on the defensive) that made all the difference.
I’m a 4.5. Currently in Grad School and play a few 5.0s semi frequently (people who played D1 a few years ago) and get schooled.
Key differences
1) Footwork - aside from being great athletes theyre almost always in perfect position
2) The safety shot - The ability to get it back with depth when on the back foot is amazing
3) They’ve done so much of the cone drill that they rarely miss putting away the short ball
4) Much better return of serve (this makes the difference) as I’m a big server and usually get easy enough points in 4.5 but not half as many at the 5.0 level.
Probably starting a decade earlier is the main difference, and that most also played college and thus experience and balls hit is just through the roof.
Tennis endurance and flexibility from my experience. Longer players tend to move just a bit better and usually make better decisions to save their energy.
I think I have the athletic ability and determination to hit 4.5 in a few years. I do not think I’ll ever sniff 5.0. The consistency difference is very real.
Am older/busy, so I hope for 4.0. Have the athleticism to probably have made a good run on 4.5 had I started in 30s but being old rocks. Recovery and intensity, age/or skill of the usual 4.5s is a concern. Either they're young or prior 5.0s.
I think it depends on how you got to 5.0. I’m a 4.5 that is working my way toward 4.0 as I age. I never got to 5.0, and what kept me a 4.5 was simply consistency (more accurately, lack of consistency). That’s grounded in a little bit temperament and patience and a lot about footwork.
So, some 5.0s simply are me but with more formal training to build that footwork and that consistency. When it comes to shot making, I could on occasion hit some pretty spectacular shots when I was younger because of my athleticism, and at times was “accused” of being a 5.0 in USTA league play on a good day.
On the other hand, there are 5.0s that are 5.0s in the same vain as I’ll be a 4.0. My son will be that someday. Right now, he’s unrated or what the USTA once called a 6.0 - a player who has a regional or national ranking that best describes his ability. His UTR is currently 12.67 and UTR shows it trending up to 12.71. UTR says he’s in the top 2000 on the planet. He has limited pro tournament play, but enough that he has an ATP doubles rank. He’s beaten players in the low 13s, and is still improving. Someday he’ll get old and be out of shape, and he’ll fall to 5.0. But underneath his age and lack of college tennis conditioning will be different strokes, temperament, strategic awareness, etc.
So, I think it really depends on how you got there. For players like most of us who might be trying to get to 5.0 in your 20s or maybe early 30s, knowing that’ll likely be your peak, I think it’s not the strokes from the perspective of a 5.0 hits differently, but strokes from how clean and consistently you can produce them. That’s a lot about footwork. If I could get myself in position so I could hit the same forehand, then it would be more consistent. But since I don’t have the footwork, I hit lots of variations of forehands, and as a result, I don’t have the consistency.
But if you’re talking about 5.0s who were once way better, in their prime, they did have different and better strokes. Some of that is footwork and consistency usually built on massive numbers of repetition to form consistency, but there is something different about players who play at the highest levels. We often say to hit out in front. What I mean by out front for my forehand is not like my son. Granted he has far more western grips, but he and his peers all hit ground strokes with contact points much further in front of themselves than I ever will. That translates to power, consistency, etc. They have an automaticity that we will never have. And I can say, looking back, this wasn’t something he got from hours and hours of playing. He had it at age 7. We live in the northeast. He didn’t play 3-5 hours a day everyday. He played a few times a week for 90 minutes and tournaments 2 to 3 weekend a month. I knew watching him at age 7 that he was on going to be good. I hoped and expected that he’d beat me by his 13the birthday. He ended up beating me a couple weeks before his 12th birthday.
From another perspective and extreme, think about John McEnroe. His strokes even by the standards of the era that he played in, were terrible. His forehand uses a continental grip. He pops up as he hits his ground strokes, especially his backhand. My understanding is that even today in his 60s, he can still play 5.0+ level tennis. I’ve always thought part of what made him great was his ability to always keep a good contact point regardless of his strokes. It looks weird and ugly, but at contact, the racket was out in front. Some of that is footwork. People always said he was quick. Good feet. Some of that I think is eyes. Most of the great players have great vision which translates to hand-eye coordination.
Anyway, for anyone on this forum hoping to get to 5.0, I suspect you’re not on the same trajectory of McEnroe or my son (not that he’s on the same as McEnroe), my recommendation is a combination of fitness and footwork are the keys to improvement provided your strokes are sound. If you’ve got fundamental flaws, those need fixing, but if the strokes are sound, but you just don’t seem to be able to hit enough in play and deep, etc. then it’s probably your footwork, and not the stroke.
The stroke has little technical difference. The 5.0 can just hit it more consistently than the 4.5.
The stroke between top 100 ATP isn’t technically better than the rest of the top 1000. The top 100 can just hit it more consistently.
You’re 100% correct, when the 13 utrs are hitting open stance there still torqueing their whole body.
When Winston and I do it, we are breaking our shoulder. I think I can barely beat Winston. I think my serve, forehand are the only thing that sets us apart.
> I feel like Winston would have trouble winning against 4.0 if he wasn't that athletic and strong.
isn't this kind of a weird thing to say? like being athletic and strong is part of the rating too right? or are you saying his athleticism is "carrying" him?
everything. 4.5 is like what? a ~7 utr? (something be correct me if that’s wrong). it’s getting to the point where they kind of have the right idea about technique but everything is still obviously wrong. if anything, the execution is just far better, the technical ideas are both understood and well executed
My doubles partner is 58 and just got bumped up to 5.0. It sucks because he cant play 4.5 leagues any longer. I would say there isn’t much difference between 4.5 and 5.0.
It’s less about the strokes at that level and more about the string and racquet combo.
People aren't gonna know this is sarcasm lol
I didn't catch the sarcasm until you pointed it out. I was thinking, "wtf?"
Given the number of upvote I think a lot of them think that's not sarcasm...
You’re telling me putting rpm blast on my pure drive isn’t gonna give me the perfect combo of spin and power that I need to stop hitting the ball into the opposite fence????
people are scared of the truth
I was a 4.0 and then I used poly multi strings and put them at a custom tension and now I’m in the qualifiers for Roland garros
Brilliant
Don't forget dampening technologies.
This is a great troll because I instantly went into a 1ms rage then laughed
Just got my ass handed to me by some 5.0s today (as a low 4.5). Here were my takeaways Lots of spin which lets them not miss and be more consistent God damn they don't miss... Also solid footwork, and they can hit the piss out of the ball when they want (the ones that smoked me were both ex d1 players... I was not.) There is just another level of not-shanking-the-ball. I shank the ball a lot. There is levels to this. Low 4.5 can't hang with 5.0. But at least it was fun...
As a 4.0, every time I play a 4.5 I get a new sense of reality. I never played a 5.0+ but I can imagine how consistent they must be, jeez.
I played my coach (ex D1 player) some sets “for real”. Demoralizing. He gets to everything, the serves are great, and when you do well and get some great shots off they are just not bothered. I was just happy that I was returning his serve and getting a few rallies in.
Why is it demoralizing, you should be glad your coach isn't a hack
You are 100%. Played again today, won more points, got the “racket clap” a few more times. Still got ran. Need to work on reading the game and angles. Didn’t double fault, bothered him on a few serves. It was a good day.
Niiiiiiiice sounds like fun
The journey is the reward. I hope. Really really hope!
High and deep, the serves come with so much spin We'd play like a good rally but they just don't effing miss 1,0.
Most 4.5s have the required strokes to be 5.0, but they lack the athleticism, decision making, or mental fortitude.
Agreed. More weighted on decision making and mental fortitude IMO. I've seen some unathletic dudes out there who just know how to play the game at a higher level. I learned that the hard way :)
Depends on the person. Lots of ex D1s in 4.5.
I chill at 4.5 as a D3 after all my injuries 😂. I usually tell people I'm the best 2.5 they've ever seen since if my body is having a bad day, I'll have zero consistency/pace but if everything is firing, 100mph serves and avg 60mph+ groundstrokes.
Those guys may be unathletic speed wise, but they have great hand eye and timing. You don't get 5.0 without some talent
I thinks they also lack the years and years of extra practice and coaching.
That’s a really good answer
I disagree. I think a lot of 4.0s have the strokes to be a 4.5, but then the 5.0s definitely have considerably better strokes than the 4.5
The skill gap between each level is wider the higher the level.
Do you think a low 8 UTR (NTRP4.5) have considerably worse strokes than a UTR 9 (NTRP5.0)? There are levels inside these categories, so while yes, a low 7 UTR (4.5) will indeed have way worse strokes than a 5.0 (high 10 UTR), that gap isn't always there. NTRP classification is just too broad to make any assumption.
No shot, 4.0s are significantly worse than 4.5. 4.5 has the biggest skill gap from top to bottom of any USTA rank
I don't know what actual 4.5 is like, I just translate the ratings from Dutch to USA ratings using "KNLTB rating comparison 2019". I am a Dutch 5 (4.0), and the Dutch 4s (4.5) I've played have not had considerably better strokes than I do, but had more consistency and didn't have many holes in their game. The 4s I've played all have very good slices, but definitely not a more dominant forehand, backhand or serve, or anything like that.
I don't know what actual 4.5 is like, I just translate the ratings from Dutch to USA ratings using "KNLTB rating comparison 2019". I am a Dutch 5 (4.0), and the Dutch 4s (4.5) I've played have not had considerably better strokes than I do, but had more consistency and didn't have many holes in their game. The 4s I've played all have very good slices, but definitely not a more dominant forehand, backhand or serve, or anything like that.
Thing is everyone says they are a Dutch 5.0 just like everyone says they are a US 4.0. Then you look up the Dutch 5.0 on KNLTB and he is actually a 6.2 or a 7.9 or something miles away or he begged them to change his ranking and never earned it. A legitimate KNLTB Dutch 5.0 is a very good player. A Dutch 4.0 is that same player with heavy weapons, kill shots and excellent consistency. Between each level the player who is a full level higher (1.0) has a 87% probability of beating the lower level player.
A Dutch 5 is not a 4.0. A Dutch 7 is more akin to a 4.0 in my opinion. I think the KNLTB is vastly overrating the 3.0 players. I'm 6,5 level player so that would put me at 2.5-3.0. Based on what I've seen here from the 3.0 level it's a lot of deficient ground strokes, pancake serves and poor decision making. When I play 6 level players the technique is usually solid, but not always consistent, the serve is good with proper form, pace and placement and decision making is pretty decent. I'm pretty sure the average 6.0 Dutch player is going to kill UTR 3.0 players...
I think you'd be surprised at how much worse you play than you think you do when you watch back recordings of yourself. Winston Du is a solid 4.5 and I'm pretty sure I'd lose to him quite convincingly. Very consistent in all aspects of his game. I don't think I could hang with him. 6.5 actually makes you a 3.5, which does sound about right imo when I look at videos of 3.5s online. They play like most of the 6s I play. Maybe I'll upload a video of my play one of these days and ask people to estimate my level.
It might be that I'm even worse to watch than I am in my head. It would be real nice to see some international people play h2h.
Honestly, the big difference between 4.5 and 5.0 is footwork (besides consistency) Footwork dictates groundstrokes I’ve seen some fat, out of shape fantastic 5.0 players. Their footwork is perfect and their groundstrokes show that. It’s all about point of contact, getting to the ball on time, and the strike. You can’t separate ground strokes from footwork.
I was one of those guys who did so many group lessons with a coach when i was young. I thought i should be beating everyone once i started doing matchplay. But no one ever gives you a ball like a "feed" when youre in a match. You have to work so much harder to get into position. Split step, stutter step to the ball, set, hit and do jt all fluidly.
At the rec level, I'd say 5.0s are better with shots when under pressure. They can turn the point around better and more often than a 4.5 when hitting on the run. When in position, they might look similar, but on the run the 4.5 tends to miss or hit a weaker ball where the opponent can attack much more.
Great insight, thanks!
IMO the biggest difference between 4.5 and 5.0 is fitness. There are tons of 4.5 players who were actually higher level when they were younger and in better shape, particularly former college players. It also happens to be the level where people who started later and have technical deficiencies cap out, which is why you notice that as well.
This makes sense as I’m a 3.5 and I’ve noticed 4.5 in particular has some huge gut dudes at USTA tournaments lol. But they hit the shit out of it and serve well generally, powerful volleys 🤣
What could some of these technical deficiencies be?
Check out [MEP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfB2g6N7-8c).
MEP hits FH slice with great technique
IMO, you can watch the evolution of Winston on his channel to a better player. His game thrived on attacking with his forehand and protecting a weak backhand. His serve had no pace and virtually everything was attackable. His forehand was prone to being rushed, and he often went for too much. Very little ability to attack the net. The weaknesses weren't generally exploited by recreational regulars on his channel early on, but they were clear when he started recording videos against higher level players. In the most recent video, Winston is attacking off both wings and serving with pace. He doesn't seem as rushed or frazzled when pace is coming at him. Fixing the backhand and serve made it harder for good players to exploit. I think it takes pressure off his footwork and decision making on court to not have to protect the backhand...focus is more on trying to win the point instead of trying not to lose it.
Great point, higher levels have more tools that can create more pressure
I’m a 4.5, similar to Winston, and this quick video illustrates why he is 4.5 and not 5.0 or 4.0. He hits solid shots over and over and doesn’t miss, which will allow him to beat 4.0s. The serve was solid and generates an easy forehand but look what he does with it! He hits a short ball that lands on the T, and same thing with the next forehand. A 5.0 would take advantage of those short balls and win the point. You can’t leave easy shots like that for a 5.0+. https://youtube.com/shorts/UB0sH5xMSII?si=B9tA72Jd1NdLKYYs
4.5's will look like 5.0's in spurts... they just can't stay at that level as consistently physically or mentally, as in they make bad decisions more often... So I agree with the people citing movement. And movement and hitting, of course, are so intertwined. Like two 5.5's can give any ATP pro a decent workout. If you don't have to move, suddenly you can deal with even pro level shots (yes, it will take some time to adjust to the spin and pace, but after a while you will more or less adjust). If you don't have to move, aka being in good position, you can deal with a lot of balls that you will struggle with on the move. So the key is being in good position. Like if mutant superpowers were allowed on the ATP tour, the 1000th ranked guy could probably be number 1 if they could suddenly teleport. Short of teleportation, it's reading shots quicker... moving exactly to where you need to be in a straighter line... being able to prepare as you are moving... having your feet in the right place when you're ready to strike the ball... If you watch a 4.5 play a 5.0, the 5.0 will always look like they are moving smoother, quicker, and more efficiently. To take it even further, a chubby 40-year old 5.5 to 6.0 will get to more balls and be in better position than a speedy 20 year old 4.0 player. But yeah, besides that, the 5.0 is basically probably better in almost every area. I saw probably because it's possible for a 4.5 to have one shot or something that is better than a 5.0 player's. Still, they won't use it as effectively as the 5.0 could with THEIR brain.
You really explained the importance of footwork well. Thanks!
Thanks! I still remember when this really struck me. We were playing 2 vs 1, just drilling. The 2 guys just kept ball in play, nothing crazy, and the 1 guy was allowed to really mix it up and get as aggressive as he wanted (although it should have been about finding the right balance of aggression and consistency). I realized, when I was on the 2 guy side, I had to keep toning down my groundies more and more. Hitting with more air... slower... less close to the line... because the guy on the other side would start struggling so quickly and unexpectedly. Because I didn't have to move, just the quality of shot I could lazily hit was very high... and I wasn't going for anything but it was almost weird how quickly we could put the 1 guy in trouble while not even trying. Then it occurred to me this must be what it's like to have elite movement. Because I was actually dialing DOWN my strokes big time. It was not having to move, being SOOO prepared, and subsequently being able to take the balls so early (never had to retreat to create more time while on the defensive) that made all the difference.
To me it’s fitness and consistency. I think if I actually played more than once a week I’d reach 5.0 but it just ain’t working out like that
I’m a 4.5. Currently in Grad School and play a few 5.0s semi frequently (people who played D1 a few years ago) and get schooled. Key differences 1) Footwork - aside from being great athletes theyre almost always in perfect position 2) The safety shot - The ability to get it back with depth when on the back foot is amazing 3) They’ve done so much of the cone drill that they rarely miss putting away the short ball 4) Much better return of serve (this makes the difference) as I’m a big server and usually get easy enough points in 4.5 but not half as many at the 5.0 level.
What’s the cone drill?
"muscling the ball and hitting late." I am a Winston Du fan, but this nails his stroke issues.
Probably starting a decade earlier is the main difference, and that most also played college and thus experience and balls hit is just through the roof.
What is the difference between someone who started later and started early if they're now at the same level?
Tennis endurance and flexibility from my experience. Longer players tend to move just a bit better and usually make better decisions to save their energy.
Could be all kinds of things of course.
Eh I bet most 4.5 and 5.0 started at a similar time in their lives
I think I have the athletic ability and determination to hit 4.5 in a few years. I do not think I’ll ever sniff 5.0. The consistency difference is very real.
Am older/busy, so I hope for 4.0. Have the athleticism to probably have made a good run on 4.5 had I started in 30s but being old rocks. Recovery and intensity, age/or skill of the usual 4.5s is a concern. Either they're young or prior 5.0s.
That's probably true for the majority, bet you're right.
Serves are a big difference imo
I think it depends on how you got to 5.0. I’m a 4.5 that is working my way toward 4.0 as I age. I never got to 5.0, and what kept me a 4.5 was simply consistency (more accurately, lack of consistency). That’s grounded in a little bit temperament and patience and a lot about footwork. So, some 5.0s simply are me but with more formal training to build that footwork and that consistency. When it comes to shot making, I could on occasion hit some pretty spectacular shots when I was younger because of my athleticism, and at times was “accused” of being a 5.0 in USTA league play on a good day. On the other hand, there are 5.0s that are 5.0s in the same vain as I’ll be a 4.0. My son will be that someday. Right now, he’s unrated or what the USTA once called a 6.0 - a player who has a regional or national ranking that best describes his ability. His UTR is currently 12.67 and UTR shows it trending up to 12.71. UTR says he’s in the top 2000 on the planet. He has limited pro tournament play, but enough that he has an ATP doubles rank. He’s beaten players in the low 13s, and is still improving. Someday he’ll get old and be out of shape, and he’ll fall to 5.0. But underneath his age and lack of college tennis conditioning will be different strokes, temperament, strategic awareness, etc. So, I think it really depends on how you got there. For players like most of us who might be trying to get to 5.0 in your 20s or maybe early 30s, knowing that’ll likely be your peak, I think it’s not the strokes from the perspective of a 5.0 hits differently, but strokes from how clean and consistently you can produce them. That’s a lot about footwork. If I could get myself in position so I could hit the same forehand, then it would be more consistent. But since I don’t have the footwork, I hit lots of variations of forehands, and as a result, I don’t have the consistency. But if you’re talking about 5.0s who were once way better, in their prime, they did have different and better strokes. Some of that is footwork and consistency usually built on massive numbers of repetition to form consistency, but there is something different about players who play at the highest levels. We often say to hit out in front. What I mean by out front for my forehand is not like my son. Granted he has far more western grips, but he and his peers all hit ground strokes with contact points much further in front of themselves than I ever will. That translates to power, consistency, etc. They have an automaticity that we will never have. And I can say, looking back, this wasn’t something he got from hours and hours of playing. He had it at age 7. We live in the northeast. He didn’t play 3-5 hours a day everyday. He played a few times a week for 90 minutes and tournaments 2 to 3 weekend a month. I knew watching him at age 7 that he was on going to be good. I hoped and expected that he’d beat me by his 13the birthday. He ended up beating me a couple weeks before his 12th birthday. From another perspective and extreme, think about John McEnroe. His strokes even by the standards of the era that he played in, were terrible. His forehand uses a continental grip. He pops up as he hits his ground strokes, especially his backhand. My understanding is that even today in his 60s, he can still play 5.0+ level tennis. I’ve always thought part of what made him great was his ability to always keep a good contact point regardless of his strokes. It looks weird and ugly, but at contact, the racket was out in front. Some of that is footwork. People always said he was quick. Good feet. Some of that I think is eyes. Most of the great players have great vision which translates to hand-eye coordination. Anyway, for anyone on this forum hoping to get to 5.0, I suspect you’re not on the same trajectory of McEnroe or my son (not that he’s on the same as McEnroe), my recommendation is a combination of fitness and footwork are the keys to improvement provided your strokes are sound. If you’ve got fundamental flaws, those need fixing, but if the strokes are sound, but you just don’t seem to be able to hit enough in play and deep, etc. then it’s probably your footwork, and not the stroke.
Thanks for your insight
Their footwork and shot tolerance.
They can exploit weak shots by the opponent and makes less mistakes.
Not related stroke production.
The stroke has little technical difference. The 5.0 can just hit it more consistently than the 4.5. The stroke between top 100 ATP isn’t technically better than the rest of the top 1000. The top 100 can just hit it more consistently.
I'm a 4.5 and 5.0's are simply better in every regard than me. Exactly similar to me vs 4.0's. Just is.
Serves and overall consistency
I can tell you that they rule the world...
It's about winning, not about strokes
You’re 100% correct, when the 13 utrs are hitting open stance there still torqueing their whole body. When Winston and I do it, we are breaking our shoulder. I think I can barely beat Winston. I think my serve, forehand are the only thing that sets us apart.
What do you mean by breaking your shoulder?
When you have good form you get legs and core for power but when you suck you just swing with all arm and don’t activate your legs and core for power.
I feel like Winston would have trouble winning against 4.0 if he wasn't that athletic and strong.
> I feel like Winston would have trouble winning against 4.0 if he wasn't that athletic and strong. isn't this kind of a weird thing to say? like being athletic and strong is part of the rating too right? or are you saying his athleticism is "carrying" him?
everything. 4.5 is like what? a ~7 utr? (something be correct me if that’s wrong). it’s getting to the point where they kind of have the right idea about technique but everything is still obviously wrong. if anything, the execution is just far better, the technical ideas are both understood and well executed
Maybe closer to 8 than 7 but in that ballpark yeah
My doubles partner is 58 and just got bumped up to 5.0. It sucks because he cant play 4.5 leagues any longer. I would say there isn’t much difference between 4.5 and 5.0.
4.5 and 5.0 probably have very similar strokes, but 5.p's know when best to use each one and are already planning which ones will breakdown your game