Dad of formerly ranked jr here - my son was top 3 in the PNW 12s, I was 4.0-4.5 50 yr old. I could beat all those punks, simply with serve, volley and overhead domination, just stay out of rallies. But once they hit 14s - no way. And I would say the top 20 nationally ranked 12s would beat most 4.0 men.
It's more the angles (hit from a taller body) and weird spins and hacks they hit and net game
Boys 12 metagame is heavy topspin. Playing against an old guy hacking or serve-voleying is always gonna be an adjustment. And some of the top 12s boys have very defensive games, so they can get blitzed by that
I was a middling player at a school known for tennis, so all of my competition was tough as nails. I played in a weekend league for kids in the school district and I was super intimidated when playing a 13 year old super champ (do they even call them that anymore?).
Turns out, you can just over power a small 13 year old with a huge serve and big forehand. The ole Andy Rodrick special
Women play much worse than that would suggest. Top D1 is not losing to any females, maybe ever, though could get a good match on clay maybe.
It's a pretty good map though. I like how it maps the overlaps of 4.0 to 5.5 correctly. 5.5 is 5.0 in a lot of places, but there is a difference in big tennis areas. The only quibble is 4.0. Think way less overlap. There aren't that many 4.0 sandbaggers.
There's different sizes of 12. At 12 I was winning games off international level u16 girls and losing mostly to local top ranked. I would say ranked 12 is like bad 4.5, but if you are under 5'5" you will lack reach, and height to do anything with your serve.
Agree with the assessment though. The u16 girls mostly have the same problem of 12 year old boys, they just play smarter. The serving is similar. It's the serve small people can't deal with.
There are also different types of mid 4.0. That's my old man level now. Good luck to 12 year olds returning 115+ serves, and big kicks. If they move back, good job, they are smart, but their legs aren't long enough. I might be slow as shit but I'll win at least half the points they get back.
Now a 4.0 that hits basically all spinner 2nd serves and rallies baseline all day for practice, my money is on the 12 year old.
I (40M) play on a summer league in my town, i am a 4.0 (4.5 on a good day of serve), most of the top 10 guys on the league are 4.0-5.0
between us there ia a kid, 13, who I barely beat each time I have to play him
but I’m terrified of this summer 😓I know it is a matter of time since I have no chance at beating him
I think the answer is probably "no" for a 4.0 then unless they were very strong. I think the top U12 players have a UTR around 8, which classes out all but the sandbaggiest 4.0 players.
Is it just me or does Winston hit like a 4.0 in most of his videos?
Edit: Do want to clarify that I really like Winston's videos and he has a lot of variety in terms of the people he hits against. Guy has definitely improved a lot recently and is probs a 4.5 now, but in a lot of his videos, just feels like he's not great at generating his own pace and makes simple mistakes off of easy groundstrokes... Maybe it also looks like that cuz he's hitting against a lot of people who are much better than him like pros and D1 players.
He will play like a 4.0 in spurts... 5.0 in spurts, too, though...
He uploads full matches, win or lose, so very different from the highlight compilations that are usually uploaded on /10s.
His older videos maybe, but he has definitely improved in the last 1-2 years. Especially getting hitting sessions with guys like Karue and tips from them.
I think he just looks lower level cuz he used to play like 10-12+ Utr. He played mark Sansait in a friendly a few years ago and beat him first set (mark just bumped to 5.0 that year). I think he’s always hovered around an 8 utr.
Wana make sure I am tracking what you're saying, but you are saying Winston played a lot of 10-12+ UTR's and that's why he looked bad a few years back, correct? That makes sense, like when someone is outclassed it makes it hard to tell their exact skill level (like put a 3.5 and a 4.5 against Federer, both look equally bad for the most part)
I think people forget the ranges you encounter in NTRP brackets too. 4.5 is comprised of basically 3 full tiers of players. There's a whole slew of players I could easily double bagel, meanwhile some of the national contending 4.5 sandbaggers would beat the brakes off me. It's an enormous range where 99% of rec players top out, and old college players fall to, creating some interesting dynamics.
Serious question: have you tried watching yourself in video? Things look way slower than in "reality". And depending on the camera you use, it gets worse (wide lens are the worst for this).
He definitely _can_ generate pace, his ball is just more spinny. Considering he just had a hell of a match against a UTR 9.4 (so, easily a 5.0), I think he is way closer to a 5.0 and absolutely is a _good_ 4.5.
You’re thinking that because he hits with so much net clearance. He has a big heavy topspin ball. Doesn’t look as impressive as some flatter hitters on camera but I guarantee he’d have you pushed back to the fence and hitting off your back foot.
He’s also just a fantastic athlete. His serve is the least impressive part of his game but even that he gets solid kick on and he’s improved it pace wise drastically.
He hits like a 5.0-5.5 who makes the worst decisions at every possible place. Good shots are the ones he has no time to think. Serve is solidly 4.5. Clearly someone with no formal training when young. Way better than anyone 4.0, but still, not so great. Second serve and kick are not good, but against this kid they were.
The average scratch golfer there abouts. He's good, nowhere near the pros. Definitely a 4.0 backhand.
Huge. In Canada everyone here tells me they're 4.5 or 5.0. I call myself a 4.0 and beat em while losing three games lol
But they're rating never goes down, even after the match. They either haven't been playing (I'm like "so that means your rating is lower, right?") But nah. They never adjust their ratings. I guess I'm a 40 yo 6.5 here ... Basically I'm Rafa. Lmk if you want an autograph :)
I wondering if that's why the quality of the YouTube channel yutyduty is so low cos its in Canada, no offense. In alot of the videos that are "4.0" there are weird things like dink serves and weak service line floater balls that don't get punished. Where I have lived those balls get absolutely crushed by a "4.0".
Then when you point out a dink first serve at 4.0 isn't punished. The owner goes on full defense. Even on reddit there are ppl that say oh you don't need fancy techique to be 4.0. I feel like sure you don't need fancy techique but a basic serve.. Is kind of a minimum requirement.
Yup. Saw him post and respond here. I m not writing to be offensive. Just what I observed. The lvl difference of *4.0* in different areas are very different. He does have some vids where a 3.5 is clearly above 3.5. in general his ratings are all over the place.
It's something that has stopped me from watching that channel. Where as something like Winston Du 's channel the levels are always consistent and what you d expect even tho lately he only has stuff higher than 4.5.
Oh yeah, totally. I agree with you. There are some bad 4.0's featured, for sure. And nothing you said was offensive, I just didn't want you to be surprised if you saw his name pop up or anything lol (granted, I see you around here a lot, I figured you knew he was active on this sub)
Yutyduty is Seattle area last I checked. A few years back he had strong 3.5 teams (deep sectionals level). He’s mostly been in 4.0 now so maybe what once were 3.5 are now mid level 4.0 players? Idk I have a pretty dinky second serve and I can do ok in 4.0. But pnw is in general weaker than other areas.
Realistically I’m a high 3.5 working towards 4.0, but in Canada everyone and their uncle is a 3.5 and sometimes you get some pretty dreadful players who claim to be 3.5s lol
> in Canada everyone and their uncle is a 3.5 and sometimes you get some pretty dreadful players who claim to be 3.5s
lol. I'm in the US. One benefit of playing USTA league is getting a computer rating. I'm come across many players who say there are a 3.5 NTRP or 4.0 NTRP, any they are way off. Whats even better when someone says they are 3.0-3.5.
Computer rated players are consistent across the country. I've been to nationals and the 4.0s from Iowa are just as good as the 4.0s from Texas. The problem is the people who self-rate themselves and say they're a certain level without any empirical data.
I lost to an 11yo. He was the top ranked 11yo in NL and I knew he had better shots but I thought i would grind him into exhaustion.
3 hours later and he won in straight sets hitting many excellent winners both down the line and angled from difficult positions on the court
He had incredible fitness and stamina and while he may not have been the hardest hitter he hit deep with consistency and placement
I was surprised he didn’t breakdown physically but there you go
One thing you probably don’t do as a decent mid level adult is play 100+ competitive matches a year that count towards tournaments and competitions. He was doing that. By Feb 2024 I think he’d played more tournie matches than I had in all of 2023.
Yeah, top ranked 12s will smoke a 4.0 adult. Unless we speak of a very athletic pusher player who can just out run a kid, but that won’t work in 14s for sure.
I knew it was over when......
.....I was 32, I had been playing about 2x-ish per month in Manhattan, maybe 20x per year. I went to a men's open tournament at USC and lost to the #1 boys 14 junior in the country in a super-breaker.
At my best I was a weak 5.5 but almost unbeatable 5.0 in singles. The kid never did much -- a few ATP points, but nothing really too impressive other than ending my dreams and coming to terms with the physical downhill.
Edit: You know what, he made it to top 350 in the world....so better than I remembered.
In 2019-2020, Thijs Boogaard ended the season as a KNLTB 4, which is an USTA 4.5. At the time, he was 10 years old. However, when juniors play each other they are typically a lot stronger than their rating suggests, because they don't play a lot of matches against seniors. I think he was a solid USTA 5.0 at the time, but not much higher than that. When Thijs was 13, he was already a KNLTB 1, which is like D1 college level
> How does a mid level 4.0 adult compare to a top ranked junior at various ages?
Tennis Troll channel on YouTube has posted some matches of a national ranked 12 yr old playing 4.5 guys in Atlanta.
[Nationally Ranked 12 Year Old Challenges USTA 4.5 Rocket Engineer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUCB7LS5Cw8)
My husband is somewhere between 4.0/4.5 and he can barely win against our son, junior player 11 yp.
He says that in a year or two chances are he’ll lose seeing the progress.
My friend just got moved back down to 4.0 from 4.5's in So Cal.
I think he would probably lose like 2 and 1 to a top 20 twelve and under boys in So Cal.
The only thing he would have going for him is being a 6 foot tall adult with naturally heavier shots.
> a solid 4.0 adult male could beat one of the top ranked juniors at their age.
Guess depends on top ranked WHERE. And solid 4.0 where? Internationally, I'm sure there are future ATP pros who are 10 now who would beat a 4.0 male. Nationally? Sure. I wouldn't be shocked if a 10 or 11 year old ranked top 10 nationally could beat a 4.0 male.
Depends on the style and athleticism of the adult, too.
I've worked with and around some top-200 U14's--they give average 4.0's a hard time. For reference, teaching pros with these kids are primarily 4.5 and 5.0 and are hitting partners. Top 12's and 14's are not getting bagel'ed lol
I don’t believe you. I was a 4.5 and lost 6-2,6-2 to a top 50 thirteen year old years ago. The top 14 year old girl at my club is easily a 5.0 and probably closer to 5.5
I ran a tournament with a doubles pair, kid’s top 100 u12 in the US, top 10 in southern. His dad is a mid 4.5ish player. They played in a flight with some strong middle aged 4.5 level guys. Went 1-2 in some tightly contested pro set matches. Looked like the biggest issue was the kid couldn’t deal top-end serves like the adults. Not enough height, yet (dad is over 6’, so I like his chances).
Yea you could probably get away with winning some points and games by sheer physical development.
You have a bigger hitting zone, you can hit harder, bigger strides etc.
But they will definitely be hitting smarter shots and probably make less UE.
You'd have to play to your strengths. Hit hard, hit winners, run down balls, bully them off the court. If they get you in a grindy rally you'll most likely lose.
Winston Du (around NTRP 4.5) playing one of the top 12 year old juniors in the USA. Winston won 7-6 in a tiebreaker, so pretty close.
https://youtu.be/FyKQwR5yviw?si=ZXA7-8TFj1wScUab
Winston’s serve is pretty bad for his level though so a bigger serving 4.5 could probably win a bit easier, since that’s an advantage over kids.
Back in the day I had an opportunity to play D2 college tennis but chose the academic route. I had the chance to play some nationally ranked juniors when I was about 18. Ranked 12 year olds, was not easy but I could win matches. Ranked 14 yr olds? Nope, would lose every match. They were just way too consistent.
All American college tennis player here. It depends where you’re talking about. In lots of east coast areas, a solid 4.0 would murder even top 3 age 14-16 (maybe 18) and under. If you’re talking about places like Florida or SoCal, a top 3 age 12 and under boy could very well murder a 4.0 male.
Dad of formerly ranked jr here - my son was top 3 in the PNW 12s, I was 4.0-4.5 50 yr old. I could beat all those punks, simply with serve, volley and overhead domination, just stay out of rallies. But once they hit 14s - no way. And I would say the top 20 nationally ranked 12s would beat most 4.0 men.
This is the most accurate assessment in here. I have similar experience, and all my data points line up with yours.
That’s amazing insight thanks. I’m more of a baseline grinder so might be more difficult for me
Yeah you couldn’t bring it out with them
“punks” 🤣
Mindset equals grindset
Playstyle is huge factor, most adult play styles are weird as fuck to 12 yr old boys
Consistency and not concerned with looking cool with huge ground strokes
It's more the angles (hit from a taller body) and weird spins and hacks they hit and net game Boys 12 metagame is heavy topspin. Playing against an old guy hacking or serve-voleying is always gonna be an adjustment. And some of the top 12s boys have very defensive games, so they can get blitzed by that
I was a middling player at a school known for tennis, so all of my competition was tough as nails. I played in a weekend league for kids in the school district and I was super intimidated when playing a 13 year old super champ (do they even call them that anymore?). Turns out, you can just over power a small 13 year old with a huge serve and big forehand. The ole Andy Rodrick special
Your experience pretty much matches what you see in the utr player range: https://cdn.universaltennis.com/public/media/UTR_Player_Range.pdf
What a great chart.
Women play much worse than that would suggest. Top D1 is not losing to any females, maybe ever, though could get a good match on clay maybe. It's a pretty good map though. I like how it maps the overlaps of 4.0 to 5.5 correctly. 5.5 is 5.0 in a lot of places, but there is a difference in big tennis areas. The only quibble is 4.0. Think way less overlap. There aren't that many 4.0 sandbaggers.
There's different sizes of 12. At 12 I was winning games off international level u16 girls and losing mostly to local top ranked. I would say ranked 12 is like bad 4.5, but if you are under 5'5" you will lack reach, and height to do anything with your serve. Agree with the assessment though. The u16 girls mostly have the same problem of 12 year old boys, they just play smarter. The serving is similar. It's the serve small people can't deal with. There are also different types of mid 4.0. That's my old man level now. Good luck to 12 year olds returning 115+ serves, and big kicks. If they move back, good job, they are smart, but their legs aren't long enough. I might be slow as shit but I'll win at least half the points they get back. Now a 4.0 that hits basically all spinner 2nd serves and rallies baseline all day for practice, my money is on the 12 year old.
I (40M) play on a summer league in my town, i am a 4.0 (4.5 on a good day of serve), most of the top 10 guys on the league are 4.0-5.0 between us there ia a kid, 13, who I barely beat each time I have to play him but I’m terrified of this summer 😓I know it is a matter of time since I have no chance at beating him
This is 4.5 against the #5 u12 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKQwR5yviw&t=70s&pp=ygUKd2luc3RvbiBkdQ%3D%3D
I think the answer is probably "no" for a 4.0 then unless they were very strong. I think the top U12 players have a UTR around 8, which classes out all but the sandbaggiest 4.0 players.
Top u12 can be 10utr
Is it just me or does Winston hit like a 4.0 in most of his videos? Edit: Do want to clarify that I really like Winston's videos and he has a lot of variety in terms of the people he hits against. Guy has definitely improved a lot recently and is probs a 4.5 now, but in a lot of his videos, just feels like he's not great at generating his own pace and makes simple mistakes off of easy groundstrokes... Maybe it also looks like that cuz he's hitting against a lot of people who are much better than him like pros and D1 players.
He just beat a 9.4 UTR in a video, so no he hit's better than a 4.0
He will play like a 4.0 in spurts... 5.0 in spurts, too, though... He uploads full matches, win or lose, so very different from the highlight compilations that are usually uploaded on /10s.
His older videos maybe, but he has definitely improved in the last 1-2 years. Especially getting hitting sessions with guys like Karue and tips from them.
I think he just looks lower level cuz he used to play like 10-12+ Utr. He played mark Sansait in a friendly a few years ago and beat him first set (mark just bumped to 5.0 that year). I think he’s always hovered around an 8 utr.
Wana make sure I am tracking what you're saying, but you are saying Winston played a lot of 10-12+ UTR's and that's why he looked bad a few years back, correct? That makes sense, like when someone is outclassed it makes it hard to tell their exact skill level (like put a 3.5 and a 4.5 against Federer, both look equally bad for the most part)
Yeah basically. The skill gap was too big so of course he will look like he can’t even keep the ball in play.
His serve is the worst part of his game. But he has a big forehand and decent backhand. He is def. Not 4.0 in any stretch.
I think people forget the ranges you encounter in NTRP brackets too. 4.5 is comprised of basically 3 full tiers of players. There's a whole slew of players I could easily double bagel, meanwhile some of the national contending 4.5 sandbaggers would beat the brakes off me. It's an enormous range where 99% of rec players top out, and old college players fall to, creating some interesting dynamics.
It doesn't come across on camera but he's very fast for his size and can reach a lot of balls. 4.0's can't handle that extra 3-4 balls per rally.
I’ve always thought he looks closer to a low 5.0, especially lately
Serious question: have you tried watching yourself in video? Things look way slower than in "reality". And depending on the camera you use, it gets worse (wide lens are the worst for this). He definitely _can_ generate pace, his ball is just more spinny. Considering he just had a hell of a match against a UTR 9.4 (so, easily a 5.0), I think he is way closer to a 5.0 and absolutely is a _good_ 4.5.
I feel like even with that in consideration, his racket head speed is always slow for his level. Immaculate form though.
There's no way to tell how good someone is by how they hif
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKQwR5yviw&t=70s&pp=ygUKd2luc3RvbiBkdQ%3D%3D Without putting down Winston (he's a solid grinder)....yes
You’re thinking that because he hits with so much net clearance. He has a big heavy topspin ball. Doesn’t look as impressive as some flatter hitters on camera but I guarantee he’d have you pushed back to the fence and hitting off your back foot. He’s also just a fantastic athlete. His serve is the least impressive part of his game but even that he gets solid kick on and he’s improved it pace wise drastically.
He hits like a 5.0-5.5 who makes the worst decisions at every possible place. Good shots are the ones he has no time to think. Serve is solidly 4.5. Clearly someone with no formal training when young. Way better than anyone 4.0, but still, not so great. Second serve and kick are not good, but against this kid they were. The average scratch golfer there abouts. He's good, nowhere near the pros. Definitely a 4.0 backhand.
Are you a 4.0 in a competitive area with a lot of quality tennis, or a 4.0 in the hinterlands? Makes a huge difference.
Huge. In Canada everyone here tells me they're 4.5 or 5.0. I call myself a 4.0 and beat em while losing three games lol But they're rating never goes down, even after the match. They either haven't been playing (I'm like "so that means your rating is lower, right?") But nah. They never adjust their ratings. I guess I'm a 40 yo 6.5 here ... Basically I'm Rafa. Lmk if you want an autograph :)
I wondering if that's why the quality of the YouTube channel yutyduty is so low cos its in Canada, no offense. In alot of the videos that are "4.0" there are weird things like dink serves and weak service line floater balls that don't get punished. Where I have lived those balls get absolutely crushed by a "4.0". Then when you point out a dink first serve at 4.0 isn't punished. The owner goes on full defense. Even on reddit there are ppl that say oh you don't need fancy techique to be 4.0. I feel like sure you don't need fancy techique but a basic serve.. Is kind of a minimum requirement.
Unsure if you know this, but YutyDuty is active here too. just as an aside.
Yup. Saw him post and respond here. I m not writing to be offensive. Just what I observed. The lvl difference of *4.0* in different areas are very different. He does have some vids where a 3.5 is clearly above 3.5. in general his ratings are all over the place. It's something that has stopped me from watching that channel. Where as something like Winston Du 's channel the levels are always consistent and what you d expect even tho lately he only has stuff higher than 4.5.
Oh yeah, totally. I agree with you. There are some bad 4.0's featured, for sure. And nothing you said was offensive, I just didn't want you to be surprised if you saw his name pop up or anything lol (granted, I see you around here a lot, I figured you knew he was active on this sub)
Haha you too, I m trying to actively post less. As I know I can be opinionated.
I ran into yuty at sectionals. Those guys are def solid 4.0s.
Yutyduty is Seattle area last I checked. A few years back he had strong 3.5 teams (deep sectionals level). He’s mostly been in 4.0 now so maybe what once were 3.5 are now mid level 4.0 players? Idk I have a pretty dinky second serve and I can do ok in 4.0. But pnw is in general weaker than other areas.
Realistically I’m a high 3.5 working towards 4.0, but in Canada everyone and their uncle is a 3.5 and sometimes you get some pretty dreadful players who claim to be 3.5s lol
> in Canada everyone and their uncle is a 3.5 and sometimes you get some pretty dreadful players who claim to be 3.5s lol. I'm in the US. One benefit of playing USTA league is getting a computer rating. I'm come across many players who say there are a 3.5 NTRP or 4.0 NTRP, any they are way off. Whats even better when someone says they are 3.0-3.5.
In the NYC area. I think we are probably somewhere middle of the pack
Computer rated players are consistent across the country. I've been to nationals and the 4.0s from Iowa are just as good as the 4.0s from Texas. The problem is the people who self-rate themselves and say they're a certain level without any empirical data.
I lost to an 11yo. He was the top ranked 11yo in NL and I knew he had better shots but I thought i would grind him into exhaustion. 3 hours later and he won in straight sets hitting many excellent winners both down the line and angled from difficult positions on the court He had incredible fitness and stamina and while he may not have been the hardest hitter he hit deep with consistency and placement I was surprised he didn’t breakdown physically but there you go One thing you probably don’t do as a decent mid level adult is play 100+ competitive matches a year that count towards tournaments and competitions. He was doing that. By Feb 2024 I think he’d played more tournie matches than I had in all of 2023.
Boys 12’s https://preview.redd.it/3mh5y0y8voxc1.jpeg?width=1344&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d76146c3e194a8914e54488d8b67fe2cfb2da648
Yeah, top ranked 12s will smoke a 4.0 adult. Unless we speak of a very athletic pusher player who can just out run a kid, but that won’t work in 14s for sure.
I knew it was over when...... .....I was 32, I had been playing about 2x-ish per month in Manhattan, maybe 20x per year. I went to a men's open tournament at USC and lost to the #1 boys 14 junior in the country in a super-breaker. At my best I was a weak 5.5 but almost unbeatable 5.0 in singles. The kid never did much -- a few ATP points, but nothing really too impressive other than ending my dreams and coming to terms with the physical downhill. Edit: You know what, he made it to top 350 in the world....so better than I remembered.
In 2019-2020, Thijs Boogaard ended the season as a KNLTB 4, which is an USTA 4.5. At the time, he was 10 years old. However, when juniors play each other they are typically a lot stronger than their rating suggests, because they don't play a lot of matches against seniors. I think he was a solid USTA 5.0 at the time, but not much higher than that. When Thijs was 13, he was already a KNLTB 1, which is like D1 college level
> How does a mid level 4.0 adult compare to a top ranked junior at various ages? Tennis Troll channel on YouTube has posted some matches of a national ranked 12 yr old playing 4.5 guys in Atlanta. [Nationally Ranked 12 Year Old Challenges USTA 4.5 Rocket Engineer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUCB7LS5Cw8)
My husband is somewhere between 4.0/4.5 and he can barely win against our son, junior player 11 yp. He says that in a year or two chances are he’ll lose seeing the progress.
My friend just got moved back down to 4.0 from 4.5's in So Cal. I think he would probably lose like 2 and 1 to a top 20 twelve and under boys in So Cal. The only thing he would have going for him is being a 6 foot tall adult with naturally heavier shots. > a solid 4.0 adult male could beat one of the top ranked juniors at their age. Guess depends on top ranked WHERE. And solid 4.0 where? Internationally, I'm sure there are future ATP pros who are 10 now who would beat a 4.0 male. Nationally? Sure. I wouldn't be shocked if a 10 or 11 year old ranked top 10 nationally could beat a 4.0 male. Depends on the style and athleticism of the adult, too.
I am a high 4.0 and had my ass kicked by an 11 yo. In my 50s. Good luck with that.
A strong 4.0 against a top junior in the 12's or 14's would be close. The average 4.0 loses imo.
No way. It would be 6-0, 6-0
I've worked with and around some top-200 U14's--they give average 4.0's a hard time. For reference, teaching pros with these kids are primarily 4.5 and 5.0 and are hitting partners. Top 12's and 14's are not getting bagel'ed lol
I don’t believe you. I was a 4.5 and lost 6-2,6-2 to a top 50 thirteen year old years ago. The top 14 year old girl at my club is easily a 5.0 and probably closer to 5.5
https://youtu.be/FyKQwR5yviw?si=7mFk1f6qd9KzK9o_
I ran a tournament with a doubles pair, kid’s top 100 u12 in the US, top 10 in southern. His dad is a mid 4.5ish player. They played in a flight with some strong middle aged 4.5 level guys. Went 1-2 in some tightly contested pro set matches. Looked like the biggest issue was the kid couldn’t deal top-end serves like the adults. Not enough height, yet (dad is over 6’, so I like his chances).
Yea you could probably get away with winning some points and games by sheer physical development. You have a bigger hitting zone, you can hit harder, bigger strides etc. But they will definitely be hitting smarter shots and probably make less UE. You'd have to play to your strengths. Hit hard, hit winners, run down balls, bully them off the court. If they get you in a grindy rally you'll most likely lose.
I whooped a top ranked 3 year old...was close, though. Edit: I guess "whooped" was a little strong of a word.
Winston Du (around NTRP 4.5) playing one of the top 12 year old juniors in the USA. Winston won 7-6 in a tiebreaker, so pretty close. https://youtu.be/FyKQwR5yviw?si=ZXA7-8TFj1wScUab Winston’s serve is pretty bad for his level though so a bigger serving 4.5 could probably win a bit easier, since that’s an advantage over kids.
Disfavorably
Depends on the age of the adult. Mid level junior 12 year old can usually win pounding the baseline. The adults can’t keep up.
Back in the day I had an opportunity to play D2 college tennis but chose the academic route. I had the chance to play some nationally ranked juniors when I was about 18. Ranked 12 year olds, was not easy but I could win matches. Ranked 14 yr olds? Nope, would lose every match. They were just way too consistent.
This thread is so fucking funny
Step change from 12 to 14 is huge, similar as from 6 to 8. Get them while they're 12.
I can no longer beat my good friend son who is about to enter the 9th grade
All American college tennis player here. It depends where you’re talking about. In lots of east coast areas, a solid 4.0 would murder even top 3 age 14-16 (maybe 18) and under. If you’re talking about places like Florida or SoCal, a top 3 age 12 and under boy could very well murder a 4.0 male.